Day or Night Chart?

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
This has too many question marks. I've heard that makes people read it like I'm angry. Don't do that because I'm not. I'm just curious, really.

@dr. farr - So the most important of the types of sect is whether the planet is in the same hemisphere as the Sun or not? So that means that even though I have Saturn and Jupiter on a night chart, they're still in sect and have full influence because of hemisphere and according to ancient use of sect, they're not pitted? Does that mean that my Moon is significantly weakened? That makes a lot of sense. It's the only thing on the chart I don't relate to very much. I don't care if it's supposed to overshadow my Sun and Ascendant according to everyone. People in real life often complain that I'm cold and hard and unsympathetic and I "don't have a sentimental bone in my body." (quote.) Defunct Moon, yeah.
 
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sandstone

Banned
moog - planetary phase is an important part of it all, and from what i am learning p-phase plays directly into the basis for arriving at temperament as well..

rebel u - the first consideration is this

1 - is it a day or night chart? is the sun above or below the horizon? this defines whether it is a diurnal or nocturnal chart...

nocturnal planets - moon, venus, mars
diurnal planets - sun, jupiter, saturn
swings either way depending on phase and sect - mercury.

2 - planets above the horizon at night - venus, mars or moon would also be in sect on this basis as would the planets sun, jupiter, and saturn need to be under the horizon on a nocturnal chart.. the reverse applies for a diurnal chart.. as i understand it this is a 2ndy consideration. also bear in mind, different traditional systems had some variations to some of this, so it is not all cut and dry..

3 - air and fire - masculine
water and earth - feminine
typically the diurnal planets need to be with the masculine signs and vice versa for the nocturnal planets.. this is also a basis for whether the planet is in sect or not..

4 - planets oriental to the sun are considered more masculine and this suits certain planets more then others..

planets occidental to the sun - more feminine..

oriental and occidental are planetary phase relationships between the sun and the other planets...

on the basis of all this planetary strength is given a better understanding.. hopefully this covers the basics with a question mark remaining for other possible alterations to these considerations on the basis of different approaches to this traditional astro technique..
 
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sandstone

Banned
another important consideration... the relationship between the diurnal or nocturnal planets with one another is deemed very important...

for example - if a nocturnal chart one needs to look at the relationships between the moon, mars and venus in this chart to see whether they are supporting one another in a helpful manner... same deal in reverse for a diurnal chart..
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
dr. farr seems to imply that hemisphere is more important for planets being in or out of sect. The first quote is more relevant.

dr. farr said:
Remember that the Sun is always in sect, but more "potent" in a day chart

dr. farr said:
Using the symbolic (ie traditional sect) model, therefore, in your chart Jupiter and Saturn are "in sect" (because they are in the "day" hemisphere of the chart), and Mars and Venus are also "in sect" (because they are in the "night" hemisphere of the chart), and the Moon is "out of sect" because it is in the "day" hemisphere of the chart.
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
I read it. I know what sect is. It seems that the Moon and possibly Mercury are the only planets out of sect. Mercury is very masculine on my chart because it rises about as much before the Sun as it can, but it's also conjunct Venus.

Something I find weird is that the waxing Moon is masculine and the waning Moon is feminine. The waxing Moon is always occidental and occidental planets are usually more feminine.
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member

- that's why hemisphere is more important as you noticed:smile:

(a) The Sun is always in Sect in a Day Chart
(b) The Moon is always in Sect in a Night Chart


If hemisphere is more important than chart sect and the Moon is below the horizon in a night chart, then the Moon would not be in sect. Am I getting confused?
 
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Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
So you're saying the condition of a chart being a day/night chart is more important? Hmm... Differing opinions, how unusual... [/sarcasm]
 

sandstone

Banned
it might be dr. farr was referring to the sign position of your sun... by sign - your sun is in sect, but this is considered the 3rd consideration on sect... if a planet is in sect in all these different ways, they are considered very powerful.. i believe the word hayz is used to describe such a planet..

3 - air and fire - masculine
water and earth - feminine
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
From my understanding, dr. farr was referring to the fact that my Sun is in the same hemisphere as the Sun. When he said that "the Sun is always in sect," he means that the Sun is always in the same hemisphere as the Sun. The question I'm asking is whether the total day/night condition of the chart or the hemisphere relative to the Sun is the first or second consideration of sect. dr. farr seems to say that it's the first and JA seems to say that it's the second. dr. farr says that my Moon is the only planet out of sect on my chart and JA says that it's in sect.
 

sandstone

Banned
well you have my list on the thread earlier that includes the numbers on it which reflects my understanding of the order of importance to arriving at the sect of the chart and planets.
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
Our solar system has only one Sun. Your Sun can only be in the hemisphere in which it is located - after all, where else could it be? :smile:

When dr. farr said 'the Sun is always in sect' either he was speaking as dr. ANARCHY and using eclectic terminology OR he meant to convey that 'the sun is always in sect in a day/diurnal chart :smile:

...

And your Moon is a nocturnal planet that is in the upper hemisphere and away from your Aquarian Sun

No blue ellipsis for you. In fact, I'm going to make it red.

There is only one Sun so obviously it's always in the same hemisphere as itself. Since the Sun is a diurnal planet that is in sect in the same hemisphere as the Sun and the Sun is always in the same hemisphere in the Sun because it is the Sun itself, then therefore the Sun is always in sect by hemisphere. You can't argue with logic except with other kinds of logic that aren't relevant.

Also, no, my Moon is under the horizon with my Sun. It's in the 6th house in Placidus and equal. Go look again.
 
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Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
The Moon is below the horizon and out of sect. Mercury is above the horizon and out of sect. Venus is above the horizon and out of sect.

Edit: more later. g2g now
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Since Hellenistic astrologers use whole sign houses and clearly since you are using Placidus and Equal House, then the Hellenestic delineations I have previously provided cannot be illustrated correctly therefore I have transferred my posts to the "Hellenistic Delineation" thread in Traditional Astrology for those who are interested :smile:
 
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Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
Since Hellenistic astrologers use whole sign houses and clearly since you are using Placidus and Equal House, then the Hellenestic delineations I have previously provided cannot be illustrated correctly therefore I have transferred my posts to the "Hellenistic Delineation" thread in Traditional Astrology for those who are interested :smile:

I can't use two house systems. I mentioned those house systems because they logically imply that the Moon is below the horizon, which you didn't seem to get via more direct methods. This thread is in "Traditional Astrology." I think you were a bit absent-minded to read that. I use whole signs since I'm too dumb to figure out how house rulership works in any other system. Did the Hellenists define the horizon as the sign cusp instead of the physical horizon?
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I can't use two house systems. I mentioned those house systems because they logically imply that the Moon is below the horizon, which you didn't seem to get via more direct methods. This thread is in "Traditional Astrology." I think you were a bit absent-minded to read that. I use whole signs since I'm too dumb to figure out how house rulership works in any other system. Did the Hellenists define the horizon as the sign cusp instead of the physical horizon?
When you mentioned the use of Placidus and Equal House I did think you were not using Hellenistic delineations - Placidus was not known at the time of Valens. Therefore, the thread clearly designated "Hellenistic Delineations" seemed a good place to transfer my comments to.

Regarding your Moon and whether your Moon is in Sect or out of Sect using Hellenistic rather than Medieval criteria:

IMO since your Sun is below the horizon then your chart is a Night Chart.

At Night the Moon is in Sect

Therefore your Moon is in Sect

If your Moon were also above the Horizon, then your Moon would have additional strength

But natally the Moon seems to be below the Horizon and the Sun seems to be below the Horizon also, therefore your Moon is apparently in the lower hemisphere along with your Sun.

Any nocturnal planets in the lower hemisphere in a nocturnal chart are still in sect but are considered slightly out of sect and more diurnal in nature (halb) :smile:

dr. farr gave some interesting historical detail
at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=348840#post348840
Not for Paulus (at least): Sun was always in sect but its "value" as such only "counted" if it were above the horizon in a day chart. In my understanding of the literature, the Moon is in sect only when in the night hemisphere of a given chart; if in a night chart the Moon is in the day hemisphere, then not only is the Moon out of sect but also is out of sect in its period, which authors like Paulus (and other later authors like Abu Mashar and Al-kindi) stated made the Moon "powerless" in such a situation.
my response to dr. farr's comment is as follows
Paulus understanding of the Sun and sect seems very similar and mostly in agreement with that of Valens dr. farr because if according to Paulus the "value" of the Sun is not "counted" unless the Sun is above the horizon in a day chart, then one might question the real difference

With reference to your comments of the moon, I earlier posted the following remarks :smile:
2.) In a nocturnal chart you'd want the nocturnal planets in the upper hemisphere away from the Sun (hayz).

Any nocturnal planets in the lower hemisphere in a nocturnal chart are still in sect but are considered slightly out of sect and more diurnal in nature (halb).
 
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