I cannot find any documentation to support the idea that the Babylonians associated the constellation we know as Virgo with a virgin. To the Babylonians this constellation represents Shala, the Babylonian goddess of agriculture. And even in the Greco-Roman religion Virgo is associated with agriculture and has only a secondary connection to virginity (despite the Roman name Virgo).
Jupiter occultation
- Thread starter jeaflor
- Start date
I cannot find any documentation to support the idea that the Babylonians associated the constellation we know as Virgo with a virgin. To the Babylonians this constellation represents Shala, the Babylonian goddess of agriculture. And even in the Greco-Roman religion Virgo is associated with agriculture and has only a secondary connection to virginity (despite the Roman name Virgo).
I saw this website back in November. It’s basically a reformatting of Ernest L. Martin’s book The Star That Astonished The World. I read Martin’s book back in the 1990s and once again all the way through since as well as about the first 1/3 of the online version about a month ago.
I started my current round of research because I have been writing a Christmas-themed novel. My health isn’t good so I am housebound a good bit. I’m writing for my own amusement more than anything else. I seriously doubt that I will ever have anything published.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
EVIDENCE FOR ARIES THE RAM AS THE ASTROLOGICAL SIGN OF JUDEA http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/...=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES 
poyi
Premium Member
I will try to do more search later on. But then I think shouldn't be too hard to find if you just do a good google search. Some luck required of course.
http://www.mazzaroth.com/InsertSix/VirgoStarChart.htm
EVIDENCE FOR ARIES THE RAM AS THE ASTROLOGICAL SIGN OF JUDEA http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/...=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES
I don’t accept Molnar’s claim that the Babylonians were influenced by Greek astrology. The Mesopotamians/Babylonians were around long before the Greeks were. Any influencing would have gone the other way. In fact most Greco-Roman religious associations with the visible planets stem from Mesopotamian/Babylonian precedence.
Furthermore, if the Greco-Romans were practicing the same astrology as the Wise Men from the East were, then the Greco-Romans would have had the same interpretation as the Easterners. And anything as momentous as the birth of a Jewish King would have upset the Romans immensely. Greco-Roman wise men simply did not interpret celestial events the same way the Magi did.
Also, if the Wise Men were practicing Hellenistic astrology, the way Greco-Romans were, why did they have to specify to Herod what kind of astrology (in the east) they were practicing as Molnar claims?
Ptolemy’s Tetrabiblos, as Molnar points out, was 150 years after the birth of Christ. So how does it provide evidence for what constellations had been associated with Judea when Christ was born?
Don’t forget that Molnar’s date does not coincide with the background history of the Star. Most early Christian writers place Christ’s birth after 3 BC. And Christ was born just before Herod died. Mainstream historians place Herod’s death in 4 BC, so Molnar’s date for the Star is too early even by standard history. And there is a good possibility that Herod’s death wasn’t until 1 BC.
According to Josephus Herod died between a lunar eclipse and the following Passover. 4 BC had an eclipse just a month before Passover. But a single month doesn’t provide enough time to conduct the state funeral for Herod that Josephus describes. But, an eclipse on January 10, 1 BC allowed 12 1/2 weeks until the next Passover.
With the Grand Conjunction (Jupiter/Saturn) at 7 BC (thanks JA) I think it is quite possible that this might well have been the "Guiding Star" of the Magi.
Note: most historians of astrology mention Babylonian and Egyptian astrology as the basis upon which the Hellenists later syncretized their astrological system (circa 150-200 BC) There were, however, other streams (traditions) of astrology extant prior to (and contemporary with) the Hellenists: one stream was Magian (ie "Zorastrian") astrology, another stream was the "native Indic" stream (which, during the first 6 centuries AD, became mixed with Magian and Hellenist currents to form what we now know of as Vedic astrology) While we have much historical information on Babylonian and Hellenist astrological concepts, and some also regarding Egptian and early Indic (Vedic) astrology, we have little available regarding the Magian (aka pre-Islamic Persian) astrological traditions methods and practices.
Note: most historians of astrology mention Babylonian and Egyptian astrology as the basis upon which the Hellenists later syncretized their astrological system (circa 150-200 BC) There were, however, other streams (traditions) of astrology extant prior to (and contemporary with) the Hellenists: one stream was Magian (ie "Zorastrian") astrology, another stream was the "native Indic" stream (which, during the first 6 centuries AD, became mixed with Magian and Hellenist currents to form what we now know of as Vedic astrology) While we have much historical information on Babylonian and Hellenist astrological concepts, and some also regarding Egptian and early Indic (Vedic) astrology, we have little available regarding the Magian (aka pre-Islamic Persian) astrological traditions methods and practices.
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I think people like Molnar approach this issue the wrong way (remember he is an astronomer, not a historian). I see 3 possible ways of doing this research:
Option 1:
Identify the Wise Men.
a. Determine the celestial events that would have had astrological associations for the Wise Men based on their cultural setting.
b. Determine the date of Christ’s birth based on the dates on which celestial events important to the Wise Men occurred.
Option 2:
Identify the celestial events that could have been the Star.
a. Determine which cultural setting would have given these events astrological associations.
b. Identify the Wise Men based on the determined culture.
Option 3:
Determine the correct background history for the Star
a. The Bible says Christ was born shortly before Herod died.
b. Look for celestial events in the year or two preceding Herod’s death which would also be Christ’s birth, then whatever events there were must be the Star of Bethlehem.
c. Determine which cultural setting would have placed astrological importance on the celestial events that made up the Star.
d. Identify the Wise Men based on the culture that recognized the Star.
Options 1 and 2 have too many unknowns
a. At least 5 different cultural settings (Babylonian/Mesopotamian; Persian; Indian; Chinese and Greco-Roman).
b. 10 – 20 year time span in which the celestial events could have taken place since you haven’t pinpointed the date for the Star/birth of Christ.
c. Too many variables that must be interpreted and synchronized to ever establish a trustworthy interpretation/synchronization.
Option 3 is the best option
a. Archaeology and documented history allow us to pinpoint Herod’s death to 1 BC (Josephus’ record of the pre-Passover lunar eclipse).
b. Archaeology and documented history allow us to pinpoint approximate dates for the census that took Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem (sometime in 3 or 2 BC).
c. Several of the early Church Fathers recorded that Christ was born in what we now know as 3 or 2 BC.
d. Jupiter, Regulus, Leo, Virgo and Venus interacted from September 3 BC to December 2 BC.
So which cultures placed astrological importance on these celestial bodies? And, can the astrological importance of these celestial events pinpoint specific dates for things like the annunciation to Mary, conception and birth of Christ?
Hellenist astrology placed importance on all the celestial factors mentioned; Persian (pre-Islamic Magian) astrology would (from what I know about it) have placed most importance on the 2 planets and the star (Jupiter, Venus, Regulus)
I'd have to accept that the Wise Men were in fact what they have been historically claimed to be: ie, Magi (pre-Islamic era Persian zorastrians)-I can't see that they were Hellenists (Greco-Romans), of course they weren't Babylonians (that civilization had already been submerged into other cultures)-and, I can't go along with the idea that they were Indians (Buddhist or Hindu astrologers). Magian astrology gave a great deal of influence to planets and stars (the Hellenists, while giving some attention to stars, mostly concentrated on planets and signs)-I think the inference is that the Wise Men were practitioners of the Magian (pre-Islamic Persian) astrological stream.
I'd have to accept that the Wise Men were in fact what they have been historically claimed to be: ie, Magi (pre-Islamic era Persian zorastrians)-I can't see that they were Hellenists (Greco-Romans), of course they weren't Babylonians (that civilization had already been submerged into other cultures)-and, I can't go along with the idea that they were Indians (Buddhist or Hindu astrologers). Magian astrology gave a great deal of influence to planets and stars (the Hellenists, while giving some attention to stars, mostly concentrated on planets and signs)-I think the inference is that the Wise Men were practitioners of the Magian (pre-Islamic Persian) astrological stream.
The Wise Men who followed the Star were obviously unusual since they were on the lookout for a new Jewish King. But, I’m inclined to take them as coming from the city of Babylon because Babylon would have been the most important city in that part of the world.
And I also think there was a lot of cross-cultural influences between the Zorastrians and the older Babylonians with a lot of spillover into the Greco-Roman world. For example the planet Jupiter was identified as the supreme god by the Romans, Greeks (Zeus), Babylonians (Marduk) and Persians (Ahura Mazda). And all of these cultures associated Regulus with royalty and they all associated the constellation Leo with a lion.
My preliminary research would rule the Indians and Chinese as well. I cannot find any association these cultures had with Jupiter, Regulus, Leo etcetera that would suggest the birth of a Jewish King. And unlike the Bible’s record of Jewish Wise Men (Daniel) working in Babylon, history has nothing to indicate any Indian/Chinese contact with Judaism. The Indians/Chinese wouldn’t have cared if a new King of the Jews was born or not.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF INTRIGUING THEORIES
REGARDING THE POSSIBLE IDENTITIES OF THESE 'WISE MEN'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M24LOlRuhYk
Babylon had fallen into desolation and was nearly completely abandoned by 140 BC (decades before the period of Jesus birth); great cities to the East of Palestine, not under Roman control, at the estimated period of Jesus birth were Persepolis, Ectabana, Alexandria-on-the-Caucusus, and particularly, Susa: note that the Zorastrian religion (and Magian astrology) dominated the culture of those cities, and that Hellenist influences were also prominent.
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I should be ashamed of myself for not thinking to investigate this. It has never occurred to me to approach this issue from this angle. I know you have to consider the possible places where the Wise Men could have come from, but I was thinking Babylonia, Persia, India and China. It never occurred to me to consider individual cities.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
ALTERNATIVELY...
A Planetary Conjunction?
'….The popular answer among astronomers, astrologers, historians today is,
Star of Bethlehem was a planetary conjunction. Two bright planets appeared so close together in the sky
that they merged into one giant, super-star.
This happened once with Jupiter and Venus in 2 BC,
but it was only visible in the western sky.
Stars don't rise in the west.
No other planetary conjunctions were close enough to overlap in that decade.
I also find this answer insulting to the ancient stargazers.
They knew Venus and Jupiter.
The close conjunction in 2 BC occurred for a few hours one evening; however the conjunction built up over days.....'
'….For example, on a Monday night stargazers would note
"Hey there's Venus and Jupiter a few degrees apart."
On Tuesday night
"There's Venus and Jupiter again and they're getting closer."
And then on night of conjunction, would they be surprised and say
"Oh my God, look at that star! I wonder what it is. Let's follow it!"
And then next night return to their stargazing to note,
"There's Venus and Jupiter again."
Any learned observer of the sky would've known exactly what was happening.
It would've been incredible to witness,
but these were Wise Men, remember? They certainly wouldn't have been fooled.....'
STAR OF BETHLEHEM HEAVENLY AND SCIENTIFIC MYSTERY http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-regas/star-of-bethlehem_b_4466740.html
'….I need more information. Bible did not record natural occurrences with trained eye of modern scientists but from a different world.
To satisfy Matthew's account for the Star of Bethlehem we would need an object that:
Is distinct, noticeable
Doesn't move with the stars
visible to Magi during their travels and on day they found Jesus
not visible to Herod
not visible to any other sources
last seen only in the greater Bethlehem area..
No natural object behaves in a way Bible describes. It is an unidentifiable flying object.
There is really only one conclusion: The Star of Bethlehem was a UFO...'
A Planetary Conjunction?
'….The popular answer among astronomers, astrologers, historians today is,
Star of Bethlehem was a planetary conjunction. Two bright planets appeared so close together in the sky
that they merged into one giant, super-star.
This happened once with Jupiter and Venus in 2 BC,
but it was only visible in the western sky.
Stars don't rise in the west.
No other planetary conjunctions were close enough to overlap in that decade.
I also find this answer insulting to the ancient stargazers.
They knew Venus and Jupiter.
The close conjunction in 2 BC occurred for a few hours one evening; however the conjunction built up over days.....'
'….For example, on a Monday night stargazers would note
"Hey there's Venus and Jupiter a few degrees apart."
On Tuesday night
"There's Venus and Jupiter again and they're getting closer."
And then on night of conjunction, would they be surprised and say
"Oh my God, look at that star! I wonder what it is. Let's follow it!"
And then next night return to their stargazing to note,
"There's Venus and Jupiter again."
Any learned observer of the sky would've known exactly what was happening.
It would've been incredible to witness,
but these were Wise Men, remember? They certainly wouldn't have been fooled.....'
STAR OF BETHLEHEM HEAVENLY AND SCIENTIFIC MYSTERY http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-regas/star-of-bethlehem_b_4466740.html
'….I need more information. Bible did not record natural occurrences with trained eye of modern scientists but from a different world.
To satisfy Matthew's account for the Star of Bethlehem we would need an object that:
Is distinct, noticeable
Doesn't move with the stars
visible to Magi during their travels and on day they found Jesus
not visible to Herod
not visible to any other sources
last seen only in the greater Bethlehem area..
No natural object behaves in a way Bible describes. It is an unidentifiable flying object.
There is really only one conclusion: The Star of Bethlehem was a UFO...'
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
SIX THEORIES ABOUT THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM
THAT DO NOT CONSIDER IT TO HAVE BEEN POTENTIALLY A UFO
http://www.armaghplanet.com/blog/6-theories-about-the-star-of-bethlehem.html
THAT DO NOT CONSIDER IT TO HAVE BEEN POTENTIALLY A UFO
http://www.armaghplanet.com/blog/6-theories-about-the-star-of-bethlehem.html
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
The difficulties of treating the star of Bethlehem as a real astronomical object should not be underestimated
For example, New Testament scholar Brown' states
'a star that rose in the East,
appeared over Jerusalem,
turned south to Bethlehem,
and then came to rest over a house
would have constituted a celestial phenomenon unparalleled in astronomical history:
yet it received no notice in the records of the times.'
There is an astronomical object which fits very well the account in Matthew's gospel, and which also received notice in the Chinese records of the times - My best guesses for the Bethlehem Star are the Chinese comet of 4 B.C http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astronomy-Cosmology/S&CB 10-93Humphreys.html
STAR OF BETHLEHEM really is open to so many interpretations.
It’s fun to consider what it might have been,
but I doubt any particular view will ever be proven.
There’s simply too little evidence to go on,
and it’s too easy to string numbers, coincidences,
earlier biblical passages, etc.
to create additional alternatives..... astroBob
THE UNSOLVED MYSTERY OF THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://astrobob.areavoices.com/2013/12/24/the-unsolved-mystery-of-the-star-of-bethlehem/
WIKI INFO ON STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem
For example, New Testament scholar Brown' states
'a star that rose in the East,
appeared over Jerusalem,
turned south to Bethlehem,
and then came to rest over a house
would have constituted a celestial phenomenon unparalleled in astronomical history:
yet it received no notice in the records of the times.'
There is an astronomical object which fits very well the account in Matthew's gospel, and which also received notice in the Chinese records of the times - My best guesses for the Bethlehem Star are the Chinese comet of 4 B.C http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astronomy-Cosmology/S&CB 10-93Humphreys.html
STAR OF BETHLEHEM really is open to so many interpretations.
It’s fun to consider what it might have been,
but I doubt any particular view will ever be proven.
There’s simply too little evidence to go on,
and it’s too easy to string numbers, coincidences,
earlier biblical passages, etc.
to create additional alternatives..... astroBob
THE UNSOLVED MYSTERY OF THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://astrobob.areavoices.com/2013/12/24/the-unsolved-mystery-of-the-star-of-bethlehem/
WIKI INFO ON STAR OF BETHLEHEM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem
I don’t see how it could have been anything but. Anything else would have been as likely to cause fear as it would have a celebration.
But otherwise totally natural so it didn’t cause fear and panic, and also not noticeable enough to have ended up in ancient records other than the Bible since the Bible is the only 1st hand record we have of it.
I’m not sure what you mean here. We say that the Wise Men followed the Star. But the Bible simply reports that they saw it. They didn’t need to follow it to get to Judea. They already knew that they were going to Judea.
And they knew from the Bible that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. But they didn’t realize what the stars were telling them until it was too late to get to Bethlehem before Christ was born. They didn’t know that Christ was still living in Bethlehem when they did arrive, and something had happened to the Star so they couldn’t see it. But the Star reappeared after the Wise Men had talked with Herod only then did they follow it.
Not necessarily. Herod and others could have seen it, but without knowing what it meant.
Most if not all of the theories which involve planets and/or stars (excluding comets) have looked at possible conjunctions in LONGITUDE: but what about PARALLELS, either in declination or, perhaps more strikingly, in CELESTIAL LATITUDE?? I think only the slow moving planets (the visible ones), Jupiter and Saturn, could really be considered here (for testing such a hypothesis), and of these 2, most likely Jupiter (both because of its magnitude and also its symbolic significance for the cultures involved)
1) was there a parallel in latitude (under 1 degree) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus (or Spica or Capella) during the time period 7 BC up to 4 or 3 BC?
2) or was there parallel in declination (1 degree orb) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus, Spica or Capella, during the 7 BC through 3 BC time period?
1) was there a parallel in latitude (under 1 degree) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus (or Spica or Capella) during the time period 7 BC up to 4 or 3 BC?
2) or was there parallel in declination (1 degree orb) of a major planet (eg Jupiter) with Regulus, Spica or Capella, during the 7 BC through 3 BC time period?
I’m not familiar with these terms, all of this being new to me, but if they mean what I think they do- an alignment, I would venture that astronomers and historians have tunnel vision geared towards conjunctions. Maybe nobody has thought to run software simulations to look for alignments, but chances are we have been biased in favor of conjunctions because they have a greater visual impact than alignments do. Nobody will go to a planetarium to watch a show about alignments so there is a also a money factor involved.
Yes I think you are correct here: its always been about "conjunctions in longitude" and the parallels (defacto alignments), either in declination or in latitude, have been neglected: however, parallels (declinational and latitudinal) have been part-albeit an often ignorned part-of astrology since ancient times (both in the West, and also in Vedic astrology), and the thing about them is that you can actually see them in the sky, which is not always the case especially when we talk about conjunctions-in-longitude involving a star and a planet, for in fact the location in the sky of a star in longitudinal conjunction with a planet, can actually be far away from that planet (visually, in the sky), whereas in alignments (parallels) this is never the case.
However, if we grant a later birth year for the Nativity (5,4,3 BC) then this hypotheis must be rejected. With more thought regarding this matter, I am leaning more toward a planet/star alignment, rather than a conjunction of 2 or more planets. Reading some of the older literature, I am starting to favor Jupiter as the likely planet, and either Regulus or Spica as the star...