Hyleg and Alcocoden

dr. farr

Well-known member
Although I no longer use the accepted (Western) traditional methods to estimate hyleg, I will state that in the past I found the Bonatti method superior to Ptolemy in estimating the "giver of life", ie, in giving (or coming close to giving) the planet as hyleg which in "real life" did seem to really have those properties relative to the native...
 

poyi

Premium Member
So dr Farr you reckon Moon is the Hyleg in my chart instead? but then the complex relationship of moon exalted Mars is a tricky one to be clear cut rather Ptolemy or Bonatti got it more right. I guess my natal planets made it even more confusing which method to be more effective.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Right-hence my dropping these various techniques (for what I consider to be simpler and more accurate ones) several years back-however, that is off topic for this thread.
 

fastlane69

Well-known member
Thank you very much for checking that for me I also thought Mars as Hyleg in my chart. From personal observation when transit Uranus (modern outer) at antisicon of natal 25 degrees Mars in Virgo I had this minor in damage but major in life changing accident. I am fascinated and think that there is room for further research crossing both traditional and modern methods like what dr Farr always does. I have now trying to always read a chart in both traditional and modern way to look for common points.

There are a lot of death prediction methods developed and used by many different cultural background of ancient astrologers. With the right attitude, any tool can be useful for positive purposes. This is highly subjective as you can see the recent arguments, but simply as part of our life to learn about right and wrong. We all need to find our own answers.

Thank you once again of using your software to help me to find my Hyleg.

Very welcome....anytime.
The reason I give Mars as Hyleg in the traditional chart...
Mars at term ruler and scores a 2 in my software. Also angular in first house.
Moon at triplicity ruler but in detriment in fifth, a succedent house. Moon scores -2 in my software.
If Moon is Hyleg then trine from Venus at home in Libra. Venus scores a 5, but no dignity in Hyleg's place. That leaves Mars or Mercury. Mars exalted and term ruler, so...Mercury no dignity in Hyleg's place. You make the call. Moon below, succedent, feminine...this is where the art comes in, and I don't have the talent....yet.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Would you consider starting a new thread for this topic using modern methods?

I might do that in the near future.
These methods though, are not modern at all-the Pars hyleg and Foundation-of-the-horoscope (they are both "Lots") go back at least to around the 8th century (and both are briefly mentioned by Bonatti although not used by him in his hyleg calculations), and ashtakavarga-a Vedic evaulative method-goes back at least to the begiining of the CE (if in fact not as far back as the Vedas themselves)!
 

SammyJo

Member
I'm very confused on the hyleg for this chart. (15. 04.1965, 3:30am, GMT+1; 44N49, 20E28)

Birth is nocturnal, so it should be the Moon, which in fact is in a hylegical house (7th) and in female quadrant (although not in female sign), however the Moon is peregrine, so does it qualify? I read that the Hyleg should not be in any way debilitated, so a peregrine body just seems inappropriate.

If this doesn't matter and I take the Moon regardless, the only options for alcochoden are Venus and Mercury, yes? But which do I choose? Venus in opposition to Moon is very large orb; Mercury on the other hand in a partil opposition. So I would take Mercury because the aspect is more precise, is that correct?

The sun could be Hyleg as is also angular (1st house), exalted (so in a healthy position), masculine sign. But it combusts the planet which would be alcochoden (venus) in a partil aspect. Besides that, this is the only aspect the sun makes, unless we count a very wide orb opposition to the Moon - which in this case can't be alcochoden anyway, as it has no dignity in the degree of the Sun.

So, do I take the Moon or Sun as Hyleg? Or neither? Which planet do I choose as alcochoden?

1zyy0zt.gif
 

SammyJo

Member
Oh and forgot to mention that the Sun, as can be seen, is ruler of the 6th house, and I read that the ruler of a malefic house (6,8,12, sometimes 4th is also taken as bad) cannot be Hyleg.
 

Konrad

Account Closed
I would use the ASC in this chart, neither the Sun or the Moon are in any state to qualify. I don't pay much attention to the whole Alcocoden thing, but the Hyleg is important as its directions will not only show the death and illness of the native, but also their general state and life experience.
 

SammyJo

Member
If we take the Asc. as Hyleg, then the alcochoden is Jupiter. But Jupiter has no Ptolomy aspects, so obviously it can't be alcochoden. Besides, Jupiter is practically on Algol, can it even qualify as such?

I am very very frustrated with this chart...Grrr!
 

Konrad

Account Closed
I think you are complicating the matter a little too much. The person is alive - they have a Hyleg - it can really only be the ASC here since the Sun and the Moon are not in places effective enough to give them this role, and regardless of the zodiac used, Jupiter is the bound lord and aspects the ASC. Algol has very little to do with choosing a Hyleg.
 

SammyJo

Member
Please don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the input and I may be overcomplicating/overthinking it (not that I'm aware), but I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion(s). For instance I don't see why you reject both the Sun and Moon as potential Hyleg. Ok on the Moon I am somewhat clearer, for reasons I stated myself (still not sure if my thinking is correct though), but for the Sun I don't really get it: it's in an angular, hence hylegical house; it's exalted; no attacks from malefics, receives the necessary aspect from a planet with essential dignity in the relevant sign (minor, but still)...my only qualm was it being ruler of the 6th house.

To be as short as possible, I would like to know what convinces you that the ascendant should be used as Hyleg?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Please don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the input and I may be overcomplicating/overthinking it (not that I'm aware), but I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion(s). For instance I don't see why you reject both the Sun and Moon as potential Hyleg. Ok on the Moon I am somewhat clearer, for reasons I stated myself (still not sure if my thinking is correct though), but for the Sun I don't really get it: it's in an angular, hence hylegical house; it's exalted; no attacks from malefics, receives the necessary aspect from a planet with essential dignity in the relevant sign (minor, but still)...my only qualm was it being ruler of the 6th house.

To be as short as possible, I would like to know what convinces you that the ascendant should be used as Hyleg?
There are rules :smile:

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hyleg:

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
My quote is from the OP :smile:
This conversation here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46232
inspired me to open a thread were I/we would try to say more about this medieval technique of the "Giver of Life" (Hyleg) and the "Giver of Years" (Alcocoden), which according to the medieavls should give the amount of years of life to the native.

I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.

But first lets see what is Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Here is what Bernadettte Brady says about H & A:


So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hylegs:

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.


(taken from the group Angelicus Merlin).


Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.
View attachment 26865

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the egiptians.
Domicil ruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicil ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).

So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.

Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:
View attachment 26866

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.
Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).
Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle eyars as months.

So we have,
40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days.
 
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