Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

david starling

Well-known member
That is a very tall claim, traditional astrology was culmination of many civilisations but they all had their mathematics and astronomy, one thing led to another and finally we had traditional astrology.

If modern astrology were to be the next phase ideally it should consider all the elements and techniques from traditional astrology and then add whatever it wants provided it is relatable to traditional astrolgoy which is not the case. The people who spearheaded the modern astrology took very little from traditional astrology and added so much of psychology and called it modern.

Would you take only one or two elements of baroque music and add some jazz (not the music but figuratively) called it next phase of baroque music?

The next (and latest) phase of astrology itself is being labeled "Modern". It draws from the past phases of astrology to create something new. Hellenistic astrologers did the same thing regarding Egyptian and Babylonian techniques--kept what worked for them, and discarded the rest. It was no longer Egyptian or Babylonian, just as "Modern" is no longer "Traditional" (defined as Hellenistic through to, and including, the Renaissance).
 

david starling

Well-known member
The music analogy is a good one. There are lovers of Classical who despise the music that came later: "You call THAT music?!!?":mad:

And, there are also those who respect and even enjoy the best of the later music, although Classical is still by far their favorite. :cool:
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
The next (and latest) phase of astrology itself is being labeled "Modern". It draws from the past phases of astrology to create something new. Hellenistic astrologers did the same thing regarding Egyptian and Babylonian techniques--kept what worked for them, and discarded the rest. It was no longer Egyptian or Babylonian, just as "Modern" is no longer "Traditional" (defined as Hellenistic through to, and including, the Renaissance).

Ok, in the future if modern astrologers further modernise their game and completely do away with natal chart because it doesn't matter what a client chart says, we know the problem and we know what planet is responsible, so why bother with natal chart but barrage them with pyschoanalysis, would you still call it astrology something like neomodern or epimodern with some weird name?

Where would you do draw the line?
 

david starling

Well-known member
Ok, in the future if modern astrologers further modernise their game and completely do away with natal chart because it doesn't matter what a client chart says, we know the problem and we know what planet is responsible, so why bother with natal chart but barrage them with pyschoanalysis, would you still call it astrology something like neomodern or epimodern with some weird name?

Where would you do draw the line?

Well, I'm all about the Natal-chart. I doubt that whatever this new method ended up being called ("Astro-Psych"?) would get enough clients to be considered a dominant form of astrology. What's now (awkwardly) called "Modern" would still be the most popular.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
That is a very tall claim, traditional astrology was culmination of many civilisations but they all had their mathematics and astronomy, one thing led to another and finally we had traditional astrology.

If modern astrology were to be the next phase ideally it should consider all the elements and techniques from traditional astrology and then add whatever it wants provided it is relatable to traditional astrolgoy which is not the case. The people who spearheaded the modern astrology took very little from traditional astrology and added so much of psychology and called it modern.

Would you take only one or two elements of baroque music and add some jazz (not the music but figuratively) called it next phase of baroque music?
Actually there are many "styles" in modern astrology. It's not the method but the interpretation of the astrologer that makes a difference. How limited it is or how free flowing it is.

In that sense,baroque music will always be that, but it's pretty much dead cos we aren't in the baroque anymore. That can 0retty much be applied to traditional astrology. Baroque music was relevant for it's times , it's not anymore. Yeah,some people still might like to listen to it, but it's a minority. Most people are present in the modern times and listen to modern music.

However ,if people didn't dare to take something old and renovae it, we wouldn't have so much great art. Taking elements from the old classics and adding a pinch of modernism is what makes great art. It's same with astrology. It's at and everyone is allowed to create as they want. Art still has "rules" but in the end it's art and rules are made to be broken haha.

You still have rules of proportions in art, but if everyone followed them,man would art be boring. Same with astrology.
 

david starling

Well-known member
That is a very tall claim, traditional astrology was culmination of many civilisations but they all had their mathematics and astronomy, one thing led to another and finally we had traditional astrology.

"Finally"? Trad isn't the end of the astrological line. But, if that's where you prefer to get off, no problem. :biggrin:
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Actually there are many "styles" in modern astrology. It's not the method but the interpretation of the astrologer that makes a difference. How limited it is or how free flowing it is.

In that sense,baroque music will always be that, but it's pretty much dead cos we aren't in the baroque anymore. That can 0retty much be applied to traditional astrology. Baroque music was relevant for it's times , it's not anymore. Yeah,some people still might like to listen to it, but it's a minority. Most people are present in the modern times and listen to modern music.

However ,if people didn't dare to take something old and renovae it, we wouldn't have so much great art. Taking elements from the old classics and adding a pinch of modernism is what makes great art. It's same with astrology. It's at and everyone is allowed to create as they want. Art still has "rules" but in the end it's art and rules are made to be broken haha.

You still have rules of proportions in art, but if everyone followed them,man would art be boring. Same with astrology.

We are talking two different things, it doesn't matter how many listen to baroque music now but you can't call a music baroque if it doesn't meet all its elements. You seem to say it doesn't matter.
 

david starling

Well-known member
We are talking two different things, it doesn't matter how many listen to baroque music now but you can't call a music baroque if it doesn't meet all its elements. You seem to say it doesn't matter.

Yes, but astrology is like the music itself, not the specific genre. Trad and Mod are genres of astrology. Baroque and jazz are genres of music.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Yes, but astrology is like the music itself, not the specific genre. Trad and Mod are genres of astrology. Baroque and jazz are genres of music.

That is a very uninformed statement from modern astrologers, you can't compare astrology to music, astrology was developed from building blocks like astronomy, and sacred geometry (and little philosophy) while music is inherent in cosmos as sound. Genres of music are fundamentally different types of sounds produced by different instruments together.

Comparing astrology to music is like comparing a martial arts form to colours in nature.
 

david starling

Well-known member
That is a very uninformed statement from modern astrologers, you can't compare astrology to music, astrology was developed from building blocks like astronomy, and sacred geometry (and little philosophy) while music is inherent in cosmos as sound. Genres of music are fundamentally different types of sounds produced by different instruments together.

Comparing astrology to music is like comparing a martial arts form to colours in nature.

Are you aware that astrology literally has a "Muse", from which comes the word "music"? "Music of the spheres" is another reference to astrology .
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Are you aware that astrology literally has a "Muse", from which comes the word "music"? "Music of the spheres" is another reference to astrology .

A statement of distraction, typical in arguments. I will play along, Muses inspired many things, why don't we make a new branch of astrology called "modern dramatic psycho analysis" and bring in Greek drama as well?

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.
 

david starling

Well-known member
A statement of distraction, typical in arguments. I will play along, Muses inspired many things, why don't we make a new branch of astrology called "modern dramatic psycho analysis" and bring in Greek drama as well?

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.

Urania, goddess of the Heavens, Muse of both Astrology and Astronomy in ancient Greece, where Traditionalistic astrology first development. The Music of the Spheres is part of the Traditionalistic genre.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Urania, goddess of the Heavens, Muse of both Astrology and Astronomy in ancient Greece, where Traditionalistic astrology first development. The Music of the Spheres is part of the Traditionalistic genre.

No body is denying that but I already said it.

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.

You took the discussion from actual genres of music which I can perceive with my ears to harmony of the universe which was expounded by Pythagoras through numbers and sacred geometry and you seem to be calling both the same. One is audible one is a concept which was seen by ancients.

Modern astrologers should not take everything so superficially but should do some thorough research at least for themselves to be considered better astrologers.
 

david starling

Well-known member
No body is denying that but I already said it.

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.

You took the discussion from actual genres of music which I can perceive with my ears to harmony of the universe which was expounded by Pythagoras through numbers and sacred geometry and you seem to be calling both the same. One is audible one is a concept which was seen by ancients.

Modern astrologers should not take everything so superficially but should do some thorough research at least for themselves to be considered better astrologers.

Actually, Pythagoras believed there was an audible hum involved regarding the Spheres. He also initiated the literal connection between audible music and numbering patterns in mathematics.
Musical categories was your analogy, and a valid one. And, just as many lovers of Classical music consider Jazz too unstructured to be considered a legitimate genre of what they consider music to actually be, many Trads consider Mod to be too unstructured to be considered a legitimate genre of astrology.
 

david starling

Well-known member
If anything, "Traditional" astrology is more bound up in ancient mystical thinking than "Modern" astrology. I incorporate more mysticism and ancient religion in my own personal view of astrology than most Mods, although "Esoteric" astrology is a style of "Modern" which is quite mystically inclined. I also require a more regular and structured pattern than standard "Modern" astrology.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Actually, Pythagoras believed there was an audible hum involved regarding the Spheres. He also initiated the literal connection between audible music and numbering patterns in mathematics.
Musical categories was your analogy, and a valid one. And, just as many lovers of Classical music consider Jazz too unstructured to be considered a legitimate genre of what they consider music to actually be, many Trads consider Mod to be too unstructured to be considered a legitimate genre of astrology.

I'm aware of it, harmony and music. Let's go with your logic that music of the spherers is same as audible music or almost the same and since both astrology and audble music have the same harmony they can be compared.

But astrology is not just sacred geometry or harmony alone, it has planets, signs, houses, aspects, techniques etc. Even if you don't agree on what exactly astrology comprises of, you have to go beyond sacred geometry or harmony to calculate how planetary placements are causing or correlating or influencing events on earth. Here you can argue that modern astrologers do not care about planetary placements causing or influencing events on earth regardless they happen whether humans care or worry about them.

Now would you honestly say astrology and audible music or harmony (inaudible) are the same or even be compared?
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Now my freestanding comment about 'music of the spheres' looks silly, because it was posted while David was editing his comment immediately after posting :biggrin:

lostinstars, "music of the spheres" is an example of music as a valid analogy for astrology, but it frankly seems easier for you to dole out insults than engage, so enough.

It is not an insult, it is a polite way to put it, an insult would start with "do you know" or "are you aware", something like that.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Johan Kepler used astronomical observation to formulate his 3 laws of planetary motion. That ruined his love for "Traditional" astrology, even causing him to abandon the 12 Sign zodiac in favor of Aspects alone, including non-"Traditional" angles. The Spheres concept requires perfect circles, which was vital to astrologers from Hellenistic through the Rennaisance--circles within circles, spheres within spheres. And, the 3 laws are predicated on elliptical orbits. The word "ellipse" meant an "imperfect circle", and to Hellenistic thinking, the Heavens couldn't be anything less than perfect.
 
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