Claire19
Well-known member
People ultimately have to help themselves and with support from others or not..
Self-esteem in your chart
- Thread starter TamaraL
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waybread
Well-known member
Emily, I am basing my sun square Pluto comments on a couple of threads-- I recall one at Astrodienst where many people with sun-Pluto contacts shared their experiences, plus reading a lot of charts for people.
The up-side of sun-square Pluto is that it can make the person an ongoing stand for personal (sun) transformation (Pluto.)
Of course, a sun-Pluto person might be the bully rather than the bullied person. But this is a major point about these aspects. People with them tend to construe relationships as a zero-sum game. His win is necessarily her loss, or vice versa. This habit can be broken, however, so that a win-win is personal transformation for both parties.
The up-side of sun-square Pluto is that it can make the person an ongoing stand for personal (sun) transformation (Pluto.)
Of course, a sun-Pluto person might be the bully rather than the bullied person. But this is a major point about these aspects. People with them tend to construe relationships as a zero-sum game. His win is necessarily her loss, or vice versa. This habit can be broken, however, so that a win-win is personal transformation for both parties.
demetraceres
Well-known member
I know only one example with Sun opposite Pluto, and there was no doubt very dysfunctional relationship with the father.
Somebody mentioned that planets in the first house play an important role in self- esteem. What about the aspects with Ascendant and what about the ruler of the Ascendant? Wouldn't they play an important role, too?
Chiron in the first house would probably say something, too, especially close to Ascendant and strongly aspected.
Somebody mentioned that planets in the first house play an important role in self- esteem. What about the aspects with Ascendant and what about the ruler of the Ascendant? Wouldn't they play an important role, too?
Chiron in the first house would probably say something, too, especially close to Ascendant and strongly aspected.
miquar
Well-known member
Hi Emily. There is a thread going at the moment in which I try to explain why Pluto aspects don't necessarily lead someone to throw their weight around. Its called 'unaspected mc' or something like that.
Hi Claire. Yes, people with tense aspects involving parts of the chart related to self-esteem often have to work at it, though sometimes they come across as quite confident when in fact they aren't and in these cases they can be quite brash.
Hi Claire. Yes, people with tense aspects involving parts of the chart related to self-esteem often have to work at it, though sometimes they come across as quite confident when in fact they aren't and in these cases they can be quite brash.
Hi
self-esteem is very much to do with the ego. I find a few factors in showing how stable a person's sense of self is
Sun square neptune shows a problem with identity, where the person does not have a stable sense of who they are at their core.
2nd house ruler and its aspects
1st house ruler and planets within it show how the personality is manifested in outer life
mdinaz
Well-known member
I agree with Zarathu that self-esteem is based on achievement and satisfaction in things well done, whatever they are. This is not to confuse "success" with self-esteem; having lots of money and a big house doesn't automatically give one self-esteem because the person may feel extremely lacking in other areas and still be very unhappy. "Success" should be defined as achievement that makes us feel good and complete.
That said, I like the idea of Venus being involved, because Venus rules the 2nd house which governs beliefs, morals, safety and tranquility. Even a poor person can have positive feelings in all these areas and not appear outwardly "successful". Our beliefs about our self, our morals (based on spiritual ideals), and the security we feel and the satisfaction we have with what we have plays a part. People with Venus square or conjunct Saturn typically have troubles with self-esteem because of feelings of low self-worth - i.e. the darkness of Saturn makes them feel less safe, less "valuable". The Moon would play a part as well too, as much of this is emotionally driven. You can see logically that you should have high self-esteem ("I have money, a great house, great wife, great family, I should feel great"), but a badly aspected Moon can still derail that.
Perhaps a combination of the two is the first step - well aspected Venus and Moon. Another consideration I think is Vesta, where we send energy to the Universe for manifestation. If we continually input negative thoughts and beliefs into the Universe, we will continually manifest bad situations no matter what great things we may have in life. Thus someone can appear to have the world at their disposal but within their sphere of perception, they create and see nothing but chaos in some area of their life. A Vesta with negative aspects to the ASC can also be a detriment, where the outside world has a negative influence into what goes into it and thus gets manifested in that person's reality.
That said, I like the idea of Venus being involved, because Venus rules the 2nd house which governs beliefs, morals, safety and tranquility. Even a poor person can have positive feelings in all these areas and not appear outwardly "successful". Our beliefs about our self, our morals (based on spiritual ideals), and the security we feel and the satisfaction we have with what we have plays a part. People with Venus square or conjunct Saturn typically have troubles with self-esteem because of feelings of low self-worth - i.e. the darkness of Saturn makes them feel less safe, less "valuable". The Moon would play a part as well too, as much of this is emotionally driven. You can see logically that you should have high self-esteem ("I have money, a great house, great wife, great family, I should feel great"), but a badly aspected Moon can still derail that.
Perhaps a combination of the two is the first step - well aspected Venus and Moon. Another consideration I think is Vesta, where we send energy to the Universe for manifestation. If we continually input negative thoughts and beliefs into the Universe, we will continually manifest bad situations no matter what great things we may have in life. Thus someone can appear to have the world at their disposal but within their sphere of perception, they create and see nothing but chaos in some area of their life. A Vesta with negative aspects to the ASC can also be a detriment, where the outside world has a negative influence into what goes into it and thus gets manifested in that person's reality.
I agree with several things mentioned in this thread. I suffer with low self-esteem, social phobia/agoraphobia, and there's always been a question over whether or not i have a personality disorder. I've been in and out of therapy since i was 12 for my issues. I think this is largely shown by my sun/jupiter conjunction squaring my neptune/uranus conjunction. Sun rules my ascendant which gives these aspects extra importance. I don't have a sun-pluto connection so i can't vouch for that, but i definitely agree that uranus and neptune can give you a shaky sense of self. It can be quite painful at times, you wish you had a solid identity but there's so much confusion over who you are, and you have very little confidence in your capability to get things right so when you do develop a mental image of yourself that doubt returns and pinpoints all the reasons why this image cannot be real. I also think self-esteem is tied in with your start in life, so if you have planets in your 4th house (i have three- mars, merc, pluto) this could hint at issues of low self-esteem.
miquar
Well-known member
Hi. I'm assuming that because you have Leo rising and Mercury in the 4th house, your Sun Jupiter conjunction must be in Libra rather than Aries, and this of course will also contribute to a lack of a strong sense of selfhood. I'd be into looking at your chart with you if you feel inclined to post it. I wonder what Saturn is up to, for example...
I was wondering if being a triple Libra would also add to it. I tend to value the opinion of others above my own.
I probably should have mentioned Saturn in my above post. Saturn is probably one of the strongest planets in my chart, you'll see why when you see my chart
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WeCareALot
Well-known member
I agree with this as well, and it has taken me much too long to accept it. I used to think that self-esteem should never be based on achievement because achievement is mostly external and therefore dependent on things outside of your control. But unfortunately for me (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), achievement matters a lot: I've got too many squares to Uranus/Saturn in Capricorn (cardinal Earth likes to see material evidence of, well, everything) to ignore it any longer. It's just depressing to feel like a loser. I applaud people who have purely internal self-esteem but that won't work for me.
And generally speaking, I think that achievement matters a lot for one's sense of self-efficacy. If you don't feel like your actions can amount to anything or if you don't have evidence that they do, it can be hard to feel good about yourself. I think humans need to feel as though they have some sort of control or effect on their environment.
WeCareALot
Well-known member
This is precisely why I HATE my Libra moon. It took me so long to learn how to trust my own judgment because I was so busy looking to others for guidance and advice. I know that all energy has positive and negative manifestations but I would gladly trade my moon sign for something like Capricorn, Aries, or Aquarius.
I think a Libra moon would be quite pleasant singularly.
Just be grateful it's just your Moon, anyway
miquar
Well-known member
Hi. There are a few things that seem to be relevant to lacking a solid sense of selfhood. The general emphasis on the social signs; the Sun Chiron (1st house) semisquare; the Saturn Pluto square; the squares from Uranus and Neptune that you mentioned; the Moon semisquare Pluto; and although Jupiter gets on well with the Sun and Sun-Jupter contacts often exaggerate the sense of importance of the self, Jupiter can also dissipate the solar sense of centrality because Jupiter needs to feel part of something bigger than the self.
The earth presence in the chart is low in terms of planetary placements, because apart from Venus, only outer planets and Chiron are in earth signs. This Venus is unaspected as well as being in an element which is relatively alien to you, but I think it would be well worth the effort of nurturing it. This planet - ruling both luminaries and Jupiter - could help you to cultivate the boundaries that you seem to be lacking, especially since it is in an earth house. (The second house is a natural house of Venus, and both Venus and the second house are often associated with self-esteem.)
Since Virgo can easily express as self-scrutiny, the placement of Venus in Virgo may add to your lack of self-esteem. But by cultivating the positive qualities of this placement, you can begin to turn things around. The important thing about Virgo is that it is the last sign of the first hemicycle (half-cycle) of the zodiacal cycle. It is a sign of preparation for participation in the collective, but this preparation involves focusing on the individual self and gaining a deep understanding of what one has to offer, and how one can best purify and better the self in order to make that offering in an effective and satisfying manner. You might benefit from choosing a skill which feels like an important part of who you are, and taking steps to develop that. This skill will perhaps be Venusian in nature.
As with all of the signs in the second quarter of the zodiacal cycle, there is a need to see the results of one's individual self-expression reflected back so that one can see them. The first three signs aren't very concerned about this. Where a second-quarter sign (Cancer, Leo or Virgo) is insecure, there can be quite a strong need for validation from others. The insecure Cancer says something like, 'Show me that you need me'; Leo says, 'Show me that I light up your life'; and Virgo says, 'Show me that I am useful to you.' So its important to be aware of this tendency in Virgo, and while it is part of Virgo's natural and beneficial pragmatism to check out how one is doing using feedback from others, ultimately, there is a need to be one's own judge of what is the right way to develop and express one's skills.
There are of course various potentially problematic placements in the chart that you will be navigating as you go through life. The Mercury in Scorpio semisquare the Moon, and also conjunct the angular Mars, with the IC and Mars also in Scorpio, suggests that you weren't able to relax in your early environment - that your instinctive need for shared understanding with others (Moon in Libra) was denied by the presence of unsettling verbal, and perhaps also physical, exchanges with others. So perhaps now your need to see things from the other person's point of view is somewhat compulsive - driven by a fear of turbulence and trauma in your relationships with others.
Mercury's rulership of Venus in Virgo is another indication that the Scorpio conjunction will affect the search for loving and harmonious relationships. All this also suggests that some of the skills you can develop as you nurture that Venus in Virgo, and meet the needs of your Libran luminaries, involve using these Scorpio energies. At the moment you may feel disempowered by Scorpio-type exchanges that you have been subjected to (and perhaps outbursts that have arisen from within you in response to attacks from others or which were somehow coaxed out of you by the emotional stagnation of those around you). But as you gradually reclaim that power, things will fall into place, and you will find that, in one way or another, you will be able to have a very therapeutic effect on others. Be careful though, because until you develop more solidity may mean that the wounded are able to feed off you like parasites. On some level, your parents may already have been doing this in some subtle or not so subtle way, but I emphasise MAY as everything I'm writing here is simply speculation for you to mull over.
With the strong Jupiter, you may also have a very strong sense of justice, especially with the Libra Scorpio emphasis, and also the squares from the idealistic Uranus and Neptune. The Saturn Pluto square also adds to your natural sensitivity to injustice, especially with Saturn in Aquarius. There's a sense that you need to develop an understanding of what changes are needed in the groups in which you participate, because this kind of understanding will enhance your sense of solidity. If you don't try to develop your own opinions about things like social progress, you may too easily give the authority of Saturn away to others, thus adding to your tendency give excessive weight to the views of others.
The interaction between Saturn and Pluto could take various forms. In one sense it adds to the Moon in Libra semisquare Mercury in Scorpio, because Saturn is on the 7th cusp (associated with the first point of Libra) and also in an air sign, and also because Pluto is Scorpio's ruler.) So there is a repeating theme here, and it speaks of reclaiming your power through making your own mind up about the things that attract your attention, and finding a practical use for the understanding that you arrive at (Saturn and Virgo).
The bringing to fruition of the many potentials shown in this chart will take time and periods of determined effort. Do be patient with yourself. People with the outer planets in aspect the Sun - especially 'hard' aspects - tend to 'find themselves' later in life than those whose Sun is left more to its own devices. But the rewards to these placements are that the Sun will never stagnate, but rather will always find new and more meaningful ways to shine. And with the Leo ascendant, this will obviously be important for you.
I hope you're getting support from people around you at this time - support that is helping you to continue to heal and blossom,
Best wishes,
The earth presence in the chart is low in terms of planetary placements, because apart from Venus, only outer planets and Chiron are in earth signs. This Venus is unaspected as well as being in an element which is relatively alien to you, but I think it would be well worth the effort of nurturing it. This planet - ruling both luminaries and Jupiter - could help you to cultivate the boundaries that you seem to be lacking, especially since it is in an earth house. (The second house is a natural house of Venus, and both Venus and the second house are often associated with self-esteem.)
Since Virgo can easily express as self-scrutiny, the placement of Venus in Virgo may add to your lack of self-esteem. But by cultivating the positive qualities of this placement, you can begin to turn things around. The important thing about Virgo is that it is the last sign of the first hemicycle (half-cycle) of the zodiacal cycle. It is a sign of preparation for participation in the collective, but this preparation involves focusing on the individual self and gaining a deep understanding of what one has to offer, and how one can best purify and better the self in order to make that offering in an effective and satisfying manner. You might benefit from choosing a skill which feels like an important part of who you are, and taking steps to develop that. This skill will perhaps be Venusian in nature.
As with all of the signs in the second quarter of the zodiacal cycle, there is a need to see the results of one's individual self-expression reflected back so that one can see them. The first three signs aren't very concerned about this. Where a second-quarter sign (Cancer, Leo or Virgo) is insecure, there can be quite a strong need for validation from others. The insecure Cancer says something like, 'Show me that you need me'; Leo says, 'Show me that I light up your life'; and Virgo says, 'Show me that I am useful to you.' So its important to be aware of this tendency in Virgo, and while it is part of Virgo's natural and beneficial pragmatism to check out how one is doing using feedback from others, ultimately, there is a need to be one's own judge of what is the right way to develop and express one's skills.
There are of course various potentially problematic placements in the chart that you will be navigating as you go through life. The Mercury in Scorpio semisquare the Moon, and also conjunct the angular Mars, with the IC and Mars also in Scorpio, suggests that you weren't able to relax in your early environment - that your instinctive need for shared understanding with others (Moon in Libra) was denied by the presence of unsettling verbal, and perhaps also physical, exchanges with others. So perhaps now your need to see things from the other person's point of view is somewhat compulsive - driven by a fear of turbulence and trauma in your relationships with others.
Mercury's rulership of Venus in Virgo is another indication that the Scorpio conjunction will affect the search for loving and harmonious relationships. All this also suggests that some of the skills you can develop as you nurture that Venus in Virgo, and meet the needs of your Libran luminaries, involve using these Scorpio energies. At the moment you may feel disempowered by Scorpio-type exchanges that you have been subjected to (and perhaps outbursts that have arisen from within you in response to attacks from others or which were somehow coaxed out of you by the emotional stagnation of those around you). But as you gradually reclaim that power, things will fall into place, and you will find that, in one way or another, you will be able to have a very therapeutic effect on others. Be careful though, because until you develop more solidity may mean that the wounded are able to feed off you like parasites. On some level, your parents may already have been doing this in some subtle or not so subtle way, but I emphasise MAY as everything I'm writing here is simply speculation for you to mull over.
With the strong Jupiter, you may also have a very strong sense of justice, especially with the Libra Scorpio emphasis, and also the squares from the idealistic Uranus and Neptune. The Saturn Pluto square also adds to your natural sensitivity to injustice, especially with Saturn in Aquarius. There's a sense that you need to develop an understanding of what changes are needed in the groups in which you participate, because this kind of understanding will enhance your sense of solidity. If you don't try to develop your own opinions about things like social progress, you may too easily give the authority of Saturn away to others, thus adding to your tendency give excessive weight to the views of others.
The interaction between Saturn and Pluto could take various forms. In one sense it adds to the Moon in Libra semisquare Mercury in Scorpio, because Saturn is on the 7th cusp (associated with the first point of Libra) and also in an air sign, and also because Pluto is Scorpio's ruler.) So there is a repeating theme here, and it speaks of reclaiming your power through making your own mind up about the things that attract your attention, and finding a practical use for the understanding that you arrive at (Saturn and Virgo).
The bringing to fruition of the many potentials shown in this chart will take time and periods of determined effort. Do be patient with yourself. People with the outer planets in aspect the Sun - especially 'hard' aspects - tend to 'find themselves' later in life than those whose Sun is left more to its own devices. But the rewards to these placements are that the Sun will never stagnate, but rather will always find new and more meaningful ways to shine. And with the Leo ascendant, this will obviously be important for you.
I hope you're getting support from people around you at this time - support that is helping you to continue to heal and blossom,
Best wishes,
Wow thank you for your informative reply.
My Venus is unaspected? I know the trines to Neptune/Uranus are wide (and perhaps shouldn't even be considered), but it is conjunct to my Moon and within orb for a sextile to Pluto.
I am working on the Venus in Virgo. I write a lot, it has been a hobby of mine for as long as I can remember. I also draw a lot, especially when my moods are low.
The only problem is I do have a tendency to give up on projects and go to the next exciting idea (Uranus in 5th...
).
Is writing the kind of skill you were thinking of, or not Venusian enough? I don't know if it's exactly Venusian, but Virgo-like maybe.. I tend to shy away from artistic pursuits simply because I don't feel like I have anything spectacular to offer artistic industries.
My childhood was a bit rough.. I won't go into it though. I never felt like I got that support, as you mentioned, though I had to witness my sisters have a relatively smooth childhood (though they were subjected to some of the Mars/Pluto themes in their childhoods, too, it didn't seem to effect them like it did with me). My sisters were more outgoing than me and had better relationships with my parents. I underwent so much in my childhood that it caused me to turn inwards, and I stopped reaching out to others and stopped communicating altogether for some time. By that time, my dad was gone, and my mum was going through her own hell so she couldn't possibly be whole enough to support me, too.
"Be careful though, because until you develop more solidity may mean that the wounded are able to feed off you like parasites. On some level, your parents may already have been doing this in some subtle or not so subtle way" This is what happened with my mum, I think. I didn't feel that support from her, it was reversed at some point. My Moon is conjunct her Sun, I think this shows how I have been the one in the relationship providing the support (her own Moon squares my Sun).
I do have a strong sense of justice, and have even considered it as a career.. though I don't know if I'd hold out with all those years of education required.
I'm always worried about how I'm not moving fast enough and how I haven't come to decisions yet.. but I suppose you're right and I do need to be patient.
I'll keep in mind everything you have said
thank you for taking your time to write all of this.
My Venus is unaspected? I know the trines to Neptune/Uranus are wide (and perhaps shouldn't even be considered), but it is conjunct to my Moon and within orb for a sextile to Pluto.
I am working on the Venus in Virgo. I write a lot, it has been a hobby of mine for as long as I can remember. I also draw a lot, especially when my moods are low.
The only problem is I do have a tendency to give up on projects and go to the next exciting idea (Uranus in 5th...
). Is writing the kind of skill you were thinking of, or not Venusian enough? I don't know if it's exactly Venusian, but Virgo-like maybe.. I tend to shy away from artistic pursuits simply because I don't feel like I have anything spectacular to offer artistic industries.
My childhood was a bit rough.. I won't go into it though. I never felt like I got that support, as you mentioned, though I had to witness my sisters have a relatively smooth childhood (though they were subjected to some of the Mars/Pluto themes in their childhoods, too, it didn't seem to effect them like it did with me). My sisters were more outgoing than me and had better relationships with my parents. I underwent so much in my childhood that it caused me to turn inwards, and I stopped reaching out to others and stopped communicating altogether for some time. By that time, my dad was gone, and my mum was going through her own hell so she couldn't possibly be whole enough to support me, too.
"Be careful though, because until you develop more solidity may mean that the wounded are able to feed off you like parasites. On some level, your parents may already have been doing this in some subtle or not so subtle way" This is what happened with my mum, I think. I didn't feel that support from her, it was reversed at some point. My Moon is conjunct her Sun, I think this shows how I have been the one in the relationship providing the support (her own Moon squares my Sun).
I do have a strong sense of justice, and have even considered it as a career.. though I don't know if I'd hold out with all those years of education required.
I'm always worried about how I'm not moving fast enough and how I haven't come to decisions yet.. but I suppose you're right and I do need to be patient.
I'll keep in mind everything you have said
thank you for taking your time to write all of this.
miquar
Well-known member
Hi. Yes, sorry. I don't know why I said 'unaspected'. As well as the conjunction, the sextile to Pluto is within orb, and so is the semisquare to Mars. But it is key to defining personal boundaries, being the only personal planet in an earth sign. I don't tend to use trines with an orb of over 6 degrees, though of course some astrologers will consider an orb as wide as ten degrees to be acceptable.
Thanks for sharing the background information. I think that you can choose whichever skills seem right for you, and you will naturally develop these skills in a Venusian manner - not only because Venus is in Virgo in the 2nd house, but also because Venus rules the Sun, Moon, Jupiter and the MC.
The sense of urgency is common with Saturn square Pluto, and the angular Mars in Scorpio will add to this, suggesting an ambitious approach to personal transformation - a setting of one goal after with the aim of establishing yourself as a stronger and more effective individual. Sun Jupiter is impatient in a different way - often for Jupiter the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, especially where Uranus and Neptune are also involved. The Sun Jupiter Uranus Neptune configuration suggests that you are brilliant at envisaging new possibilities, especially with regard to the organisation of groups of people into fruitful and fulfilling communities of one sort or another (Libra Capricorn). But as you say, it is difficult for you to stay at one thing at the moment. When you find the right thing, the Saturn Pluto square and the Scorpio energies will give you the staying power you need to stick at it for as long as it feels right to do so.
I wonder if it would be useful for you to write some biographical stuff, whether this is factual, or reflects your experiences but portrays them in fictional settings. This would allow the strong feelings of the Scorpio stellium to find expression through your writing, and help to integrate the rational side of your nature (earth air) with the passionate side (Scorpio). Even if you don't develop this as a vocation from which you earn money, you may benefit greatly from it. You may also free up a lot of energy (and deepen your understanding of human nature) through such writing, and so it will enrich your vocational life in this way.
Thanks for sharing the background information. I think that you can choose whichever skills seem right for you, and you will naturally develop these skills in a Venusian manner - not only because Venus is in Virgo in the 2nd house, but also because Venus rules the Sun, Moon, Jupiter and the MC.
The sense of urgency is common with Saturn square Pluto, and the angular Mars in Scorpio will add to this, suggesting an ambitious approach to personal transformation - a setting of one goal after with the aim of establishing yourself as a stronger and more effective individual. Sun Jupiter is impatient in a different way - often for Jupiter the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, especially where Uranus and Neptune are also involved. The Sun Jupiter Uranus Neptune configuration suggests that you are brilliant at envisaging new possibilities, especially with regard to the organisation of groups of people into fruitful and fulfilling communities of one sort or another (Libra Capricorn). But as you say, it is difficult for you to stay at one thing at the moment. When you find the right thing, the Saturn Pluto square and the Scorpio energies will give you the staying power you need to stick at it for as long as it feels right to do so.
I wonder if it would be useful for you to write some biographical stuff, whether this is factual, or reflects your experiences but portrays them in fictional settings. This would allow the strong feelings of the Scorpio stellium to find expression through your writing, and help to integrate the rational side of your nature (earth air) with the passionate side (Scorpio). Even if you don't develop this as a vocation from which you earn money, you may benefit greatly from it. You may also free up a lot of energy (and deepen your understanding of human nature) through such writing, and so it will enrich your vocational life in this way.
BluEyedGrl105
Well-known member
As a Libra Sun, Venus (Chart Ruler), Mercury I can really relate to this.
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waybread
Well-known member
Cascada, you seem to have a high level of self awareness.
I think the astro-key is to find empowering interpretations of those difficult placements, and then to implement them bit by bit into your life. With Uranus, seek out novelty or do something out-of-character a few times each week. With Neptune, develop your spiritual nature, or if you can, spend time by the sea (or other large body of water.) Both planets can be visionary. Start with baby-steps, anticipate some setbacks, but keep at it. I think the universe will notice.
I think the astro-key is to find empowering interpretations of those difficult placements, and then to implement them bit by bit into your life. With Uranus, seek out novelty or do something out-of-character a few times each week. With Neptune, develop your spiritual nature, or if you can, spend time by the sea (or other large body of water.) Both planets can be visionary. Start with baby-steps, anticipate some setbacks, but keep at it. I think the universe will notice.