david starling
Well-known member
Fixed Air and Cardinal Earth are quite different qualities.
Why does Saturn rule Aquarius?
- Thread starter obsidianmineral
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Fixed Air and Cardinal Earth are quite different qualities.
waybread
Well-known member
Note that this scheme goes back to Hellenistic astrology. It's in Ptolemy (150 CE) but we don't know where he got it from.
In traditional astrology Saturn's nature is cold and dry. The dry part esp. means that it's not fructifying, or conducive to plant life. This is where we get the idea of Saturn's limiting nature. By the time Pisces rolls around in late February, nature in the Mediterranean region really started to wake up, making warm, moist Jupiter a suitable traditional ruler.
AppLeo
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david starling
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Oh really?
I'm pretty sure the seasonal patterns of Elements and Modalities predate the "cold/dry", "warm/moist", "masculine/feminine" theories. And if so, those are what's really behind the pattern of rulership, along with the yearly sequence of Sun-signs. I've applied a "Heliocentric-cipher", with excellent results. The Heliocentric model was known to the Greek scientific-colony in Alexandria, centuries before Ptolemy.
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graay ghost
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Giving the contrary nature of Saturn, I would be unsurprised if it enjoyed a hostile environment. That said, I do not agree with the rest of your premise.
david starling
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It was an either/or premise. If that's the case, why is that the "rebel", Aquarius, up against this fearsome Adversary, is usually cool and calm; whereas Capricorn, which goes along with the Saturnian restrictions, is usually cautious and apprehensive? Maybe Saturn, the "Adversary", treats the disobedient better than the obedient! Like a parent, who punishes the "good" kid, and pampers the "bad" one.
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graay ghost
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I do not agree with your initial statements on Saturn, which was not either/or.
david starling
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Then, what does your advanced knowledge of mathematics and physics tell you about the Astrological effects of Saturn? I believe the most pernicious effect is that it shuts down our "extra-sensory" perceptions, and limits our understanding of the true nature of Reality to what can be ascertained through materialistic science and odious occult practices, such as human sacrifice.
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graay ghost
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They're two answers to the same question of mortality.
Capricorn says I will die.
Aquarius asks, so what?
Both are good answers.
david starling
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Aquarius says, there's no such thing as death. Just as Scorpio says, I will overcome death. Pisces says, yeah, there's no such thing, but it's a very painful illusion.
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sylph
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ha, that's probably accurate too..
As for the OP, I know we're not really talking about Vedic astrology, but some believe that Rahu is co-ruler of Aquarius (along with Saturn). This makes the most sense to me.
From http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Rashi_Lagna/11kumbha_lagna.htm (Kumbha is Aquarius, Rahu is North Node, Shani is Saturn):
In Jyotisha, the Kumbha rashi has TWO planetary rulers and they are utterly apples- and-oranges incommensurable with each other: Rahu + Shani.
Way too much from the link for me to post here, but it's definitely worth reading if you want to understand just how Saturn's energy "works" with Aquarius. And perhaps why Aquarius is so different from Saturn's other sign.
david starling
Well-known member
Since you've read it, can you give a quick version of how a mind-expanding Sign like Aquarius handles being ruled by a restricting, limiting Planet like Saturn?
david starling
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Yes, true, the ancients did indeed pray to all kinds of gods and they were connected to nature. Let's say they were scared the Sun would die each and every day, even in spite of the evidence that the Sun always came rose at the same time every morning ... now the times have changed and people have moved on from that so as we know today I am pretty sure Leos and those that have the Sun conjunct angles are not scared of death. They are very much aware of their own ability to shine and many of them have a star quality makes their image live forever (or long after they die).
But again, this is off topic
"How the Signs View Death" is too grim a topic for me. Probably was inspired by this discussion about the grimmest of Sign-rulers!
Saturn's moon "Tethys" has been dubbed "The Death Star"!
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waybread
Well-known member
David, the concept of 4 elements in Hellenistic astrology specifically goes back to Plato and Aristotle (4th century BCE,) although other cultures had similar ideas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element
waybread
Well-known member
This was the rationale given for Saturn having its joy in the 12th house. In Hellenistic astrology the idea was that both Saturn and the 12th indicated Bad News, such that they had an affinity.
Could I just add, folks, that you do not need to speculate so much about the history of astrology? You can look up stuff on the Internet.
sylph
Well-known member
I can't explain it as well as Barbara Pijan; I think, from the page I linked, this is the simplest way to understand:
Whilst believing in law and order and upholding the most exalted principles of personal and social discipline, the native is equally prone to acts of illicit or taboo-breaking social disregard. It is quite a challenge to manage both Shani and Rahu in a single flesh-body!
I know this still probably doesn't mean anything to some of you, but I think it's pretty clear that, if Rahu is desire and Saturn is duty, then the Aquarius native is split between doing what he/she wants to do and what Saturn requires him/her to do. Pijan says that, depending on the placements of Saturn and Rahu in the chart, one will ultimately be stronger or win out in the personality.
In my opinion, the energies can be about equal sometimes. I've noticed that some Aquarians can seem simultaneously rebellious and disciplined.
david starling
Well-known member
In that case, a "hostile environment" from Saturn's viewpoint would be H11. There is a great deal of speculation in historical articles I've read on the internet. Seems you often have to be your own arbitrator of whose version is "true". I haven't found anything on WHEN the Modalities were first introduced. Just that "Mutable" was once called "Common". Don't know when that change occurred either.
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waybread
Well-known member
No: again, there is real historical information out there.
In Hellenistic astrology, the 12th was called "the house of the bad daemon" or spirit. The 11th was the house of the good spirit. Saturn joys in the 12th, and Jupiter joys in the 11th.
I think it was Charles Carter who conflated signs and houses. I think he did modern astrology no favours, because signs and houses mean very different things. You cannot just smoosh them together.
The one exception is medical astrology.
The cardinal-fixed-mutable thing also goes back to Hellenistic astrology. This does have a parallel with angular, fixed, and cadent signs.
david starling
Well-known member
I was originally led to believe (late 1960's) that the Signs themselves were numbered 1 through 12, beginning with Aries. That's what I still believe, Houses aside. But it's an easy connection to make, by the numbers--1st House "owned" by 1st Sign, etc. Sounds like a numbering pattern, with Saturn "at home" in the House of the Sign it rules (10th House, 10th Sign), and also very happy in the sextile, 12th House of the 12th Sign; and, Jupiter correspondingly at home in the 9th House of the 9th Sign, happy in the sextile 11th House of the 11th Sign. So, with Jupiter ruling Signs 9 and 12, and Saturn ruling Signs 10 and 11, these two major influences each "find Joy" in the House of a Sign ruled by the other. Sounds like a very hospitable arrangement!
Wait....I'm getting a psychic premonition....waybread isn't going to agree!
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