Bullying

Hey said:

They also say Chiron in the first house particularly either wounds others or gets wounded themselves.

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More like wounded! Look at my stuff above.

Is there any more opinions on bullies themselves?

The work bully which I put up with was gem sun/pisces moon (inner conflict) with mars conj saturn and merc squ mars. Shame I don't know what time they're born.

Hey said:

They also say Chiron in the first house particularly either wounds others or gets wounded themselves.

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Yes, that's quite right, I've also noticed this in many charts. Currently the bullier (the person bullying others) at my place of work also has Chiron (in Taurus) though technically still in 12, but very close to the ASC, though unaspected.
Bur she also has Sun, Mars and Venus all in 12, so she should be making many enemies, thanks to her attitude, shouldn't she?

I see it in one person. Someone I know has Chiron conjunct the ascendant in Gemini, and she verbally abuses everyone. She's made quite a few enemies along the way, including her poor family. Her frequent phrase is, "Are you stupid?"
I'd say she's quite successful at what she does.

Being bullied is a self-esteem & social acceptance thing.
This means look all things Leo.

Yes I think it can be a social issue sometimes with bullying. I was wondering the other day what makes people popular, I was thinking more Sagittarius and Jupiter perhaps. I was only thinking this because I do wonder why some children are popular while others are cast out and bullied. I was bullied when I was younger, and my teenage years were ****. My sister was not and she has a more Sagittarian chart, her personality was more outgoing, I think my Sun/Saturn across the Asc/Dsc axis, really affected my self esteem, I could never come out of myself. Although I had 4 good friends at school, so I wasn't totally alone. I do have Jupiter in Leo 11th what happened to my many gazillion friends, Jupiter expands doesn't it . I have a few planets in Pisces, which I think overall described my weaker personality.

expansion and positive energy are not exactly the same thing. think of the movie Akira. dude keeps expanding and ends up destroying everything in his path. people fear that, they run away. Jupiter in Taurus might be more favorable, i.e. financial expansion.

also, do you have any aspects to Jupiter?
and where is your Moon?

Hi Zekar ,

Jupiter squares Chiron in Taurus in 9th, opposes Venus in Capricorn in the 5th. Trines, Moon/Mercury in the 7th and trines Uranus in the 3rd.

zekar said:

expansion and positive energy are not exactly the same thing. think of the movie Akira. dude keeps expanding and ends up destroying everything in his path. people fear that, they run away. Jupiter in Taurus might be more favorable, i.e. financial expansion.

also, do you have any aspects to Jupiter?
and where is your Moon?

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Yes, Moon's placement, I think is very important when it comes to social integration and acceptance -> a 2-way street. I've noticed that Airy Moons and those in Fire signs do very well in this regard (I have an Earth Monn & that's in Capricorn, it can make you lonely)

Also, look for if any & what planets are there in 11. Venus, Moon, Sun, Jup might be very helpful in making one popular (menaing well-liked) in his social circle. A Saturn on the other hand (as in my chart ) might bring about the reverse effect.

Actually the more I think about what you said Zekar your right, Jupiter in Leo 11th does get self inflated, but I also feel the sting of loss of self confidence and self worth probably due to Chiron squaring Jupiter, and Jupiter being disposited by the Sun which is opposed Saturn. It is a problem at times, especially in group situations. I have lots of positive feelings, and energy for people but end up always feeling rejected. A lot of it is due to me going overboard at times and I do more harm than good.

P.S I will see what the movie is about.

Is this the film Akira

Based on previous comments, I have moon in libra, jupiter conj asc (1st) and was still picked on. I think it had to with my sun-saturn-uranus t-square where I did not seek social acceptance/low self-confidence behind my veil of Aries AC. I also have chiron in the 1st. I have absolutely no leo in the chart as well.

23 said:

Based on previous comments, I have moon in libra, jupiter conj asc (1st) and was still picked on. I think it had to with my sun-saturn-uranus t-square where I did not seek social acceptance/low self-confidence behind my veil of Aries AC.

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I meant that, in general an air/fire sign Moon helps you show your emotions/ feelings more openly & makes one more of an extrovert, so others find it easier to relate to you etc.
A t-square in itself is a difficult combination of aspects as it indicates the need to overcome many obstacles. Also, over a longer span of time, it is the higher octave planets (like Saturn, Uranus, Nept, Pluto) that cause deeper problems and have a more intense effect. Also, they they are stronger than an airy (Libra) Moon, which alone could hardly have helped you in your situation. You have quite a challenging T-Sq. directly involving your Sun.

23 said:

I also have chiron in the 1st. I have absolutely no leo in the chart as well.

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Here's an excerpt on Chiron in 1. Think, it accounts for a lot in your case..

Chiron is associated with the emotional wounds we receive early on in our lives. The sign Chiron is in will dominate but the house placing will show in which area the personality is motivated and into which they will put their efforts. In the first house, it may indicate a journey of self-discovery. Possibly, there were restrictions in early childhood that will have had the effect on you of either retreating into yourself or having to fight to be noticed. There will be a need to find personal meaning in existence. Some will do this by being overly aggressive, others by withdrawing.

//aquarius7000

Thanks for your thoughts 23. Lots of other things in the chart can really affect other natal placements, which are usually seen as positive or social, so the bigger picture of the chart is always needed.

23, everyone has leo in the chart somewhere. i wonder where he comes into play in your chart, as well as the 5th house overlay...

aquarius7000, i agree about the Moon being important as well, especially Moons in Leo or Aries, where attention is an emotional need.

Miss Saturn, yes that is the movie, watch it right away

Thanks Zekar .

23, your T-square is definitely significant but i don't see how it's indicative of feeling bullied. on the other hand, a more understandable social anxiety might come from having Libra Moon and Aries Rising. The fact that they are in opposition to each other causes a lot of friction between your emotional needs and how you'd like to be viewed by the world. The Moon wants you to relax and enjoy life while your ascendent wants you to be a go-getter.

23, everyone has leo in the chart somewhere. i wonder where he comes into play in your chart, as well as the 5th house overlay...

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Sorry I'll rephrase that. I don't have any planets, asteroids or major points in leo. Leo rules my 5th house and you can see by the sun what mess it is in!

And yes, Aries AC opp Libra moon does not help! I certainly did not appease others at school but at home and later on in life I did. I got told by someone that I wanted everyone to like me. That really hit home and since then, I've definitely have been conscious about it and have been more self-focused rather than worrying about others. I think it was partially aggravated by the lunar return I had at the time. I also heard that a 7th house moon and planets really makes you concerned with what others think and feel about you.

Edit - The t-squ involves a sun-saturn oppostion - low self-esteem, surely bullies would pick up on that.

Actually I had a few more ideas when I had my morning shower just then.

I must add that the bully that I dealt with at work that I mentioned a few posts back was someone I dealt with during my lunar return. I think the reason why they disliked me was partially because they saw me as competition. We are of the same gender and my mars makes 6 deg conj to their sun. They were thoroughly envious of me. See below...

*Also* I have pluto in the 6th conj my DC so that would attract people with big egos, power issues. You've just solved a problem that I have been thinking about for years, that is, "why do people get jealous of me?" I've noticed that people get very jealous about who or what I am and I've always found it odd because these people have always got more than what I have. I think this has played in bullying as well. A lot people have bullied me out of jealousy and because I have not given in at times (I have mars trine pluto). Thanks very much for making me think about this, I've never noticed this!!

But anyway, I think we should get back to the topic and not make this a 23-centred thread.

EDIT - PPS something else has just occurred, I have jup conj AC in 1st house. Jup-Pluto opp, jealous of my personal "luck"??

23 said:

Edit - The t-squ involves a sun-saturn oppostion - low self-esteem, surely bullies would pick up on that.

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I agree with that, self-expression + self confidence get restricted with this opposition; both energies are working in opposite directions.

23 said:

..I have pluto in the 6th conj my DC so that would attract people with big egos, power issues..., "why do people get jealous of me?"

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I think you've made a very valid point there 23.
Pluto usually plays a role in some way with both: the one bullying & the one being bullied. I have a powerful, highly-aspected Pluto (in 2, Libra); and I face the same problem as mentioned in your quote. I've also been told that I come across as a powerful personality (and I have problems believing that mself!). I think it's the Pluto that oozes through, and makes others (who seem to sense those Plutonic energies) go on the defensive. As we all know, attack is the best form of defense, so there you have the bullying by such people coming in..
Just the way I clarified this issue to myself