The Twelfth House

poyi said:

The only way to define The Twelfth House fairly is by reading thousands of natal charts, realistically. Otherwise, theories are forever theories. I personally prefer COLD-HARD facts.

Gives me charts and READ it out loud to me to proof your own understandings. Otherwise, I won't agree to theories. Theories without proof are only lies.

Click to expand...

Indeed, I believe that's why this thread was started in the first place... to get a feeling for what people with 12th house planets thought about it. Of course everyone is welcome to share their viewpoints too.

poyi said:

The only way to define The Twelfth House fairly is by reading thousands of natal charts, realistically. Otherwise, theories are forever theories. I personally prefer COLD-HARD facts.

Click to expand...

You don't think this has already occured over the several hundred years that horoscopic astrology has been practiced?

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

You don't think this has already occured over the several hundred years that horoscopic astrology has been practiced?

Click to expand...

Of course!! That is why I tend to believe how the ancient astrologers described the Twelfth house more
BUT! I would enjoy seeing people with different views to provide evidences of their new understandings of the twelfth house!!

With a Sagittarius Uranus in 3rd conjunct IC/Jupiter, I can accept new, unconventional views as well! How nice to be in a generation of an expended version of care-free Uranus.

Also...Sorry, no offend! I just can't help myself being critical: having Sun conjunct my 2nd house Saturn and 3rd house Mercury in Scorpio. 3rd house Mercury sextile my 5th house Capricorn Moon while Mercury also sextile 1st house Virgo Mars...Mars also trine Moon....hmm 1st H Virgo Mars and 3rd H Scorpio Mercury are in mutual reception!! haha

I'm pretty new to astrology overall and would be most interested in learning what traditional astrology would say about my Moon in Gemini in the 12th.

I hope this would be a good place to post a chart. I was just over at JUPITERASC's new thread, on the origin of the meaning of the 12th, in the traditional area and was recommended to post a chart elsewhere for an interpretation (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49348).

I could start a new thread altogether... But, I figure a Moon in the 12th may be an interesting topic in this thread at this juncture for a traditional delineation since we've already had modern ones...?

I've posted Whole Signs sans outers! I left the orbs wide since the Moon and Venus are in opposition due to being contra-parallel.

Thanks for any interpretation!

EDIT: I started a new thread here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=384610#post384610

I don't see why it couldn't be a 'read my chart' thread.

If not, let's start one.

Personally, I'm in the same boat with anyone who'd rather look at some charts than theorise/argue endlessly. Not much to be learned from that, after a point.

I'd rather see people delineating a chart (or parts of it) according to the sets of rules and traditions they subscribe to.

I may have a stab myself. But not now, it's 5am

Stillone, I recall I was looking at your chart, and it makes a lot more sense now, since I somehow had your birth time totally mashed before, but have corrected it now.

poyi said:

What if we read famous people's chart?? Because the purpose of reading the chart is to discuss the definitions of 12th house! Should be ok, right? You can't define something like this based on pure theories and no evidence or references from a real person' life. If you write an assay based on pure theories without actually evidences from researches; surely you should expect to fail.

Click to expand...

Naturally. If Astrology is truly a science, then it must have evidence to back up its theories or hypothesis. I love how you said (Poyi) Astrology is like a Science and an Art; rings true for me.

So delineating a few (or good amount) of people with prominent 12th houses, and looking at their lives from an objective perspective might help everyone pierce deeper into the 12th house meanings.

Sure the ancients have done it. That's nice and all. But if the ancients truly have delineated the 12th house and gave it the correct attributes, then there is no worry as too why people's 12th houses should not reflect what the ancients dictated in the first place.

SniperBomber328 said:

Naturally. If Astrology is truly a science, then it must have evidence to back up its theories or hypothesis. I love how you said (Poyi) Astrology is like a Science and an Art; rings true for me.

So delineating a few (or good amount) of people with prominent 12th houses, and looking at their lives from an objective perspective might help everyone pierce deeper into the 12th house meanings.

Sure the ancients have done it. That's nice and all. But if the ancients truly have delineated the 12th house and gave it the correct attributes, then there is no worry as too why people's 12th houses should not reflect what the ancients dictated in the first place.

Click to expand...

Yes that is why I am happy to see how people use different natal charts to provide evidences of their interpretations. Without supportive evidences I find it extremely difficult to believe or accept anything. But I do agree that there are always exception and each house should have both positive and negative meanings. But then seriously, we really need to read the whole chart...

As I said before I myself don't have any planet in 12th house but I have my Sun ruling 12th house. Sun is located in 3rd house as part of the stellium conjunction with Saturn and of course the nearest planet Mercury. My Mercury is near the midpoint of Mars/Moon trine, Mercury sextile these two planets. And the chart pattern is Bundle pattern. I work in hospital and I consider myself still highly involve with traditional 12th house's meaning but it influencing me in different ways which I suppected is more to do with the locations of the ruler and most importantly the interactions of my 10 planets and the house will explain the 12th house's expression that represents me as an individual.

I personally don't believe, just purly based on theories alone will ever give me any satisfying answer. I don't think anyone can truly defined a person and their spiritual status or imprisonment, based on fixed definitions of the one house alone. I want people to proof how they use their definition of the 12th house to read a person's chart accurately. With theories, you must go through different stages before it becomes the Laws. You must first have your hypothesises, research to find your evidences, then you must also need to prove and disprove your own theories then analysising your findings THEN it shall become the Laws of such and such. Otherwise....we are only dealing with low class and unprofessional astrology here. I am new and just a kindagaren student in astrology but I DON'T want to take astrology lightly.

So here I am expecting to learn heaps from everyone who has been involved with astrology for many years.

poyi said:

Of course!! That is why I tend to believe how the ancient astrologers described the Twelfth house more
BUT! I would enjoy seeing people with different views to provide evidences of their new understandings of the twelfth house!!

With a Sagittarius Uranus in 3rd conjunct IC/Jupiter, I can accept new, unconventional views as well! How nice to be in a generation of an expended version of care-free Uranus.

Also...Sorry, no offend! I just can't help myself being critical: having Sun conjunct my 2nd house Saturn and 3rd house Mercury in Scorpio. 3rd house Mercury sextile my 5th house Capricorn Moon while Mercury also sextile 1st house Virgo Mars...Mars also trine Moon....hmm 1st H Virgo Mars and 3rd H Scorpio Mercury are in mutual reception!! haha

Click to expand...

No offense taken by any of your comments, Poyi. Maybe you're expressing some of the frustration that seems to be going around right now because we don't seem to be getting anywhere with this thread. I share that feeling. I have natal Neptune on the cusp of my 12th (using the Koch system; I realize it could have a different placement in other systems, but Koch always works for me in terms of transits), so I am probably not the one to ask to "explain" anything about that house. LOL!

I love the idea of looking at famous people's charts for insight into the 12th. Graybeard brought up Ernest Hemingway. I checked his chart yesterday only for a few minutes, but his Mercury in the 12th, alone, makes him a good candidate, since Mercury was his Ascendant ruler.

I'd also nominate Thomas Merton, the monk who authored New Seeds of Contemplation (among many other books). Reading that book years ago put me about as close to a 12th house feeling as I've ever been, as he explained the inexplicable. Merton had Mercury and Jupiter in late Aquarius in his 12th house, in the chart I looked at. Also Venus in his 9th house. Graybeard made a comment about monks being more of a 9th house than 12th house phenomenon, and I'd love to see more about that, maybe in regard to Merton.

Rodden has Henry Kissinger (AA rating) with Sun conjunct Mercury in his 12th; Mercury rules his Ascendant. Maybe his chart has already been done to death, but I think it's an interesting placement considering that his job entailed a lot of behind-the-scenes negotiating, yet he became a media celebrity.

Rodden also has George W. Bush with Sun and Saturn in his 12th; again, probably an overdone chart. AA rating.


Just throwing them out there.

What about:

Bill Clinton
David bowie
Mick Jagger
Nicole Kidman

Kim Kardishan.
Osman bin laden(probably too controversial)

Helen Hunt

Since many may not have seen my post edit, I figured I'd make an announcement that I started a 12th house interpretation request thread in the Read My Chart section of this forum specifically for such posts.

Any interpretation is welcome! I'm particularly interested in a traditional interp so I posted a Whole Sign chart there as well. I also encourage others to post their charts there too!

Thanks!

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49389

Moog said:

Personally, I'm in the same boat with anyone who'd rather look at some charts than theorise/argue endlessly. Not much to be learned from that, after a point.

Click to expand...

To be fair, bringing charts into it is just going to give people something else to argue about. "No, that doesn't mean that, it means this! And they act that way because of this thing over here!"

Also, the problem with celebrity charts in general is that we - being the public - actually knows very little about these people personally. We don't know how these people act when they aren't on camera. It becomes especially difficult when the house you're trying to delve into is a house of secrecy and hidden things.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

To be fair, bringing charts into it is just going to give people something else to argue about. "No, that doesn't mean that, it means this! And they act that way because of this thing over here!"

Click to expand...

Indeed but what is an astrology forum without a healthy discussion on 12th house matters?! Lol, I'd say a forum is the perfect place for exploring these types of situations in more detail since there are so many resources here. Plus, if it heats up, all the better in my opinion. However, I don't want to see any bashing as I merely think it's healthy to debate. Also, at this point I really would like to see how someone would traditionally interpret my 12th house moon...

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

Also, the problem with celebrity charts in general is that we - being the public - actually knows very little about these people personally. We don't know how these people act when they aren't on camera. It becomes especially difficult when the house you're trying to delve into is a house of secrecy and hidden things.

Click to expand...

I would have to agree, which is why I would think that having live people on a forum to be able to bounce things back and forth with would be a better solution. IMO of course...

I am not good at reading chart or putting interpretation into writing. This is my practice reading so just bear with me .

I would like to suggest to have a look of Helen Keller's natal chart. She was famous enough, with reasonable amount of information about her and she had already passed away. With no planet in 12th, but she had suffered from lost of hearing and eyesight (form of imprisonments due to disabilities also lived in insane asylum ) since early age. But however she wasn't truly trapped inside of this prison but instead she was free in her own ways and achieved greatly in life. She has high focus in 8th house and her rulers of 12th & part of 1st houses are Mars and Pluto (Placidus system).



Link for her Biography:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Keller,_Helen

Helen's ascendant is 25 Scorpio 20 at later degree. Taurus Pluto (Detriment) is at her open enemy house conjunction with descendant opposite to Ascendant.
She has no planet in 1, 2, 3, 11 & 12. 9 planets are located on the right side 5 above, 4 below the horizon remaining Uranus is at 10th conjunct MC in Virgo Cusp based on sign, Uranus is ruled by Mercury. Uranus and Moon are both at angular houses in 10th and 4th. Moon is in her own house, her family background was very wealthy and parents were well educated and her mother was inspired by education for blind and deaf woman which later alternated Helen's life. Moon semisextile Jupiter, Jupiter trine Mars which Jupiter influenced Mars in both positive and negative ways I believed. After all Mars is an malefic expanded by Jupiter.

Saturn (Fall) the other malefic is opposition to her Mercury in 9th; I believe Mercury is the ruler of hearing??

NN is in 2nd, SN is in 8th house which Sun is conjunction with SN. Sun is the ruler of eyesight. Sun is at the near midpoint of Pluto and Mars, two malefic. Virgo Uranus another malefic sextile Sun at 10th and Uranus trine Saturn, Saturn opposite Mercury; Uranus conjunct with MC, lost of eyesight and hearing were possibility beneficial factor for her development of her final achievements. Uranus conjunct MC is the ruler of 3rd house of communication and Mercury is the ruler of Uranus and Mercury is at 9th house of higher education. Mercury is the ruler of hands, writing, teaching and communication.

Both Pluto and Mars ruler of 12th and partial of the early degree of 1st house were perfected their aspects at the age around 2 years old. Mars square Neptune perfected at 2S and Pluto opposite AC at 2A which suggest as Markers of events at around the age of 2. Pluto in Taurus, Taurus is the sign that rules vocal cords and throat.

Oh well sorry about my long description of the chart, my point is no planet in 12th house, but rulers of 12th Mars and Pluto both have significant indication of her imprisonments due to lost of hearing and eyesight also her impaired ability of speech. But there is no planet in 12th, and Scorpio is a sign of transformation/regeneration/rebirth. No doubt she still experienced extreme level of imprisonments due to her physical body (Ascendant & part of 1st house) but she was not truly and fully in prison due to her own disabilities. In fact, because of all these disabilities and hardship from the 8th and malefic planets (which also proved the positive effect of malefic planets), she achieved much higher than regular healthy individuals. Her whole life is a inspiring true story to all of the disable people. Although I must say all due to the power of her 4th house, wealthy family, supportive parents, good education from early age with enough money to learn and to maintain her living. With such a well positioned Moon, she had the emotional ability to transform her own disabilities to the most positive way.

I believe in reading the whole chart and looking at the rulership of 12th house. I hope I managed to make my points clear to you guys...

Just an aside really, but Helen Keller was born with the Sun in partile conjunction with Ketu. I find that worth investigating.

Some ideas about astrology and the senses here; http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49227

Ahh, more of interest; If this chart is somewhat correct, then the brain fever would appear to coincide with malefic Rahu transiting retrograde into her first house, which I would take to be significant for her brain/eyes/ears. Mars also conjuncts the Sun/Venus/Ketu trio, and aspects the 1st from the 7th.

"It is worth remembering that the natural rulers of this house are both Neptune and Jupiter, so the 12th, like the 9th, is also the house of god, in the sense of being deeply connected on a mystical level."

"The 12th house is also the house of institutions, hospitals, prisons, monasteries, nunneries and retreats, all of which are containers which protect us from the world."

"Your life will be embedded in the big picture, and you may well find yourself through working in any of the 12th house institutions."

Interestingly, some of the modern ideas about the 12th are similar to the Vedic associations.

Here's the 12th house associations from Barbara Pijan's site... It's fricking long. Enjoy

http://barbarapijan.com/bpa/Bhava/12vyaya_bhava.htm

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

To be fair, bringing charts into it is just going to give people something else to argue about. "No, that doesn't mean that, it means this! And they act that way because of this thing over here!"

Click to expand...

Good point Kaiousei no Senshi and here's an example:

d00dle said:

"It is worth remembering that the natural rulers of this house are both Neptune and Jupiter

Click to expand...

On the contrary!

Domicile Ruler of Pisces is Jupiter
Exaltation Ruler of Pisces is Venus
Triplicity Ruler of Pisces is Mars

Carris said:

I think uranus in 12th gives you brilliant/ humanitarian/ enlightening/ unconventional/ radical (uranus), spiritual (12th) knowledge (sag) - which is then to be harnessed (12th) and channelled towards the moon in 6th - for work/service/health/healing (6th) in a nurturing/caring/motherly (moon) way through learning/teaching (gemini-sag axis). There are very strong supporting, harmonious aspects in your chart - the moon receives a lot of support. Ruler of 6th, mercury is conjunct jupiter - you can definitely bring joy (jupiter) to people through your speech and intellect. I think this shows that you can be a great healer (6th) through talking/writing/communicating (gemini).

Click to expand...

Thanks, Carris for your insight. I have begun a serious study of astrology, numerology and other metaphysical subjects for the purpose of learning what this life is all about and what I'm supposed to do while I'm here.

Judy_AzVirgo said:

Just a little aside to what Carris wrote: With Moon conjunct Chiron in the 6th, I think you might well feel that you don't quite "fit in", but maybe as a healing process you can help other people get through their own emotional issues?

Click to expand...

Thanks Judy for your insight. I'm pretty much a loner, and don't have any friends to discuss my own or their issues with, but when I observe the kind of foolishness that people, especially younger folks, get themselves into, the answers seem so obvious to me. I can pretty much figure out everyone's issues except my own. I'm working on how to apply and intergrate my philosophy into my experience.