Is Pluto an astrological planet?

JUPITERASC · Dec 9, 2014

Dirius said:
Of course I agree.

In my opinion, the nodes of the Moon are given precedence, because the moon itself is given precedence over other planets.
And that is for classics, medieval, modern, hellenistic, vedic astrology

I want to be clear on this, because I think I did sound a bit like a "jerk" in an earlier post, and I don't want to look like that lol---

Certainly I agree that the Nodes of the Moon are given precedence

and I simply find it intriguing and interesting that Evolutionary astrologers
ARE apparently using the Nodes of not only Venus,
but also Mercury, Mars, Juipter, Saturn as well as the 'outers'
and thought dhundhun would be interested to know that

StillOne · Dec 9, 2014

JUPITERASC said:
Thanks and here is dr. farr's comment
quoted in full,
including the one sentence left out

Indeed, and as I see it, that sentence was irrelevant to this discussion since we are not talking about "higher octaves". As shown, dr. farr states that in his opinion, the outers are combinations of the planets he listed and not just a "higher octave" of one planet in particular.

JUPITERASC · Dec 9, 2014

StillOne said:
Indeed, and as I see it, that sentence was irrelevant to this discussion since we are not talking about "higher octaves".

As shown, dr. farr states that in his opinion,
the outers are combinations of the planets he listed
and not just a "higher octave" of one planet in particular.

Since my avatar is appended to this thread as the OP
then I am happy to include highter octaves to the discussion
simply because these higher octaves formed part of the discussion
on the original thread from which my comments were transferred by wilsontc

Interestingly, dr. farr has also clarified that
he also does NOT consider Neptune, Uranus or Pluto to be dispositors ("rulers") of any sign

but DOES consider them to be affinitive to certain signs and dissonant with other signs:

and provides an example that
if a planet is in Aquarius, then dr. farr considers SATURN to be dispositor of that planet

and for Uranus to have a relationship to that planet as well
(because of the affinity of Uranus with Aquarius),
but NOT at the same level (the level of dispositorship) that Saturn has.

Dirius · Dec 9, 2014

Vista said:
Dirius and Kaiousei no Senshi,,

My apologies, my post came out more stern than intended.

The issues surrounding traditional versus modern astrologers on "this" forum have been brewing for awhile. We moderators have had quite a number of complaints from the modern forum members feeling gained up on from the traditionalists. In fact, we have lost 4 modern astrologers already, very experienced one's I might add, because they got worn out trying to defend their use of modern astrology(including outer planets). I think we all can agree there are mostly newbies on the forum with a handful of experienced astrologers left. When you continuously try and devalue or discredit the use of outer planets, it does not allow the new astrologers to develop their own technique because as experienced astrologers you will have influenced their opinion. What's more, it's quite disrespectful. I respect Traditional astrology very much but I am a modern astrologer and quite happy with it. Do I think traditional astrology is valuable, of course it worked for a couple thousand years but it doesn't mean modern astrology is not worthy or accurate either. Whether Pluto is a planet, asteroid, or a piece of Kryptonite, I find it to be powerful and have the ability to cause an event. It's just my opinion just as you all believe the outer planets have no use or dignity. Even Robert Hand who is mostly a traditional astrologer still uses outer planets in his readings.

I am just please asking you all outside your own traditionalist forums to be aware of not trying to devalue the use of modern astrology to our newbies. Thank you!
Vista

I understand, and again, I do apologise if I offended anyone, clearly it was a poor choice of words on my behalf to describe it, but it wasn't said with ill intention on my part, was just a poor way to express myself.

And yes, I'm sort of new here, but I've seen this discussions happen in every astrology forum there is, so I can understand and relate, that as a moderator, your first priority is indeed to put a stop at things like this.

I suppose that in a way, the reason we traditionalists pay a lot of attention to the arguments about the outer planets, is because we too feel, perhaps, a bit attacked in that way and we feel that we need to reinforce our point, because after all, some concepts of modern astrology do imply that our system is wrong. So I guess it kind of works both ways :happy:

JUPITERASC · Dec 9, 2014

Dirius said:
I understand, and again, I do apologise if I offended anyone, clearly it was a poor choice of words on my behalf to describe it, but it wasn't said with ill intention on my part, was just a poor way to express myself.

And yes, I'm sort of new here, but I've seen this discussions happen in every astrology forum there is, so I can understand and relate, that as a moderator, your first priority is indeed to put a stop at things like this.

I suppose that in a way, the reason we traditionalists pay a lot of attention to the arguments about the outer planets, is because we too feel, perhaps, a bit attacked in that way and we feel that we need to reinforce our point, because after all, some concepts of modern astrology do imply that our system is wrong. So I guess it kind of works both ways

Of course, I'll agree
that it is usually us who start this kind of threads,
and start the fire

Hey steady on there - this thread was started by modern astrologer and moderator wilsontc
who removed my comments from another thread
since he deemed they belonged on their own thread
with another title
and in fact the title of this thread is specifically chosen by wilsontc
so clearly then this thread was NOT created deliberately as a 'fire starter' :smile:

Dirius · Dec 9, 2014

JUPITERASC said:
Hey steady on there - this thread was started by modern astrologer and moderator wilsontc
who removed my comments from another thread
since he deemed they belonged on their own thread
with another title
and in fact the title of this thread is specifically chosen by wilsontc
so clearly then this thread was NOT created deliberately as a 'fire starter'

Oh, I wasn't trying to pin it on you, nor actually referring to this post. I was speaking in general (happens in most forums). But sorry if I implied that :happy:

PS: why don't move this to the traditional section instead?
PS2: I edited that out (for the best) -- :joyful:

StillOne · Dec 9, 2014

Vista said:
The issues surrounding traditional versus modern astrologers on "this" forum have been brewing for awhile. We moderators have had quite a number of complaints from the modern forum members feeling gained up on from the traditionalists. In fact, we have lost 4 modern astrologers already, very experienced one's I might add, because they got worn out trying to defend their use of modern astrology(including outer planets). I think we all can agree there are mostly newbies on the forum with a handful of experienced astrologers left. When you continuously try and devalue or discredit the use of outer planets, it does not allow the new astrologers to develop their own technique because as experienced astrologers you will have influenced their opinion. What's more, it's quite disrespectful. I respect Traditional astrology very much but I am a modern astrologer and quite happy with it. Do I think traditional astrology is valuable, of course it worked for a couple thousand years but it doesn't mean modern astrology is not worthy or accurate either. Whether Pluto is a planet, asteroid, or a piece of Kryptonite, I find it to be powerful and have the ability to cause an event. It's just my opinion just as you all believe the outer planets have no use or dignity. Even Robert Hand who is mostly a traditional astrologer still uses outer planets in his readings.

I am just please asking you all outside your own traditionalist forums to be aware of not trying to devalue the use of modern astrology to our newbies. Thank you!
Vista

Well said and this is, unfortunately, not a recent issue on this board as it has been happening for a looooong time now. As a matter of fact, I made a recommendation awhile ago that I felt would have solved this problem and kept astrologers here. After all, isn't that what the Astrologers Community is all about? To have a wealth of experienced astrologers on hand to discuss all things astrology? Maybe I'm wrong...

Anyway, I started this thread a long time ago:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45217

I know of the astrologers that you're talking about and it is very unfortunate to see these astrologers not posting here any longer.

Vista · Dec 9, 2014

Dirius,

I completely understand what you are saying and appreciate the kind reply.

Arguments happen it's the nature of the beast in having so many personalities in one space who have many years combined experience about one subject!!

Happy posting!

Dirius said:
I understand, and again, I do apologise if I offended anyone, clearly it was a poor choice of words on my behalf to describe it, but it wasn't said with ill intention on my part, was just a poor way to express myself.

And yes, I'm sort of new here, but I've seen this discussions happen in every astrology forum there is, so I can understand and relate, that as a moderator, your first priority is indeed to put a stop at things like this.

I suppose that in a way, the reason we traditionalists pay a lot of attention to the arguments about the outer planets, is because we too feel, perhaps, a bit attacked in that way and we feel that we need to reinforce our point, because after all, some concepts of modern astrology do imply that our system is wrong. So I guess it kind of works both ways

Of course, I'll agree that it is usually us who start this kind of threads, and start the fire

JUPITERASC · Dec 9, 2014

Dirius said:
Oh, I wasn't trying to pin it on you, nor actually referring to this post.
I was speaking in general (happens in most forums). But sorry if I implied that

PS: why don't move this to the traditional section instead?

Great idea, but ironically, we may only discuss this topic on the General Astrology forum

because the rules of the traditional forum prevent us from doing so by stating that:

'.......Traditional Astrology Forum is for discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)....'

However General Astrology encompasses Vedic, Chinese, Sidereal, Tropical, Uranian, Traditional, Ancient, Modern and so on
so therefore it is an entirely appropriate discussion for this area of the forum
although I agree with you the topic seems an 'inflammatory one'

Vista · Dec 9, 2014

StillOne,

YES, I was thinking this VERY thing yesterday!! I am so sorry but I missed your post original post. I agree wholeheartedly with your logic.

I will will send a message to the owner of the forum and see what can be done about this.

Thank you for bringing it up again!

Vista

StillOne said:
Well said and this is, unfortunately, not a recent issue on this board as it has been happening for a looooong time now. As a matter of fact, I made a recommendation awhile ago that I felt would have solved this problem and kept astrologers here. After all, isn't that what the Astrologers Community is all about? To have a wealth of experienced astrologers on hand to discuss all things astrology? Maybe I'm wrong...

Anyway, I started this thread a long time ago:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45217

I know of the astrologers that you're talking about and it is very unfortunate to see these astrologers not posting here any longer.

Dirius · Dec 9, 2014

JUPITERASC said:
Great idea, but ironically, we may only discuss this topic on the General Astrology forum

because the rules of the traditional forum prevent us from doing so by stating that:

'.......Traditional Astrology Forum is for discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renassiance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and exludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretetation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)....'

However General Astrology encompasses Vedic, Chinese, Sidereal, Tropical, Uranian, Traditional, Ancient, Modern and so on
so therefore it is an entirely appropriate discussion for this area of the forum
although I agree with you the topic seems an 'inflammatory one'

Hum, but in a way, wouldn't we be discussing what in OUR view is what astrological practices should be avoided? (according to traditional ways of course).

As in playing devil's advocate for our own learning purpose?

After reading stillone's post, I understand that there were some bad arguments between moderns and classics here on AW in the past.

It always amazes me how internet forums sometimes act like proper communities, even with specificly defining catastrophies that change the course of the community itself :w00t:

Vista · Dec 9, 2014

Done!!

I reached out to the owner of the site with your suggestions StillOne! He was out of the country recently, let's see what we can do.

Vista said:
StillOne,

YES, I was thinking this VERY thing yesterday!! I am so sorry but I missed your post original post. I agree wholeheartedly with your logic.

I will will send a message to the owner of the forum and see what can be done about this.

Thank you for bringing it up again!

Vista

StillOne · Dec 9, 2014

Vista said:
Done!!

I reached out to the owner of the site with your suggestions StillOne! He was out of the country recently, let's see what we can do.

Maybe we can reconsider some of the bans as well? Many may have been as a result of discussion just like these. With new forums to help maintain the peace, maybe these banned astrologers will be able to now coexist as a result. May be worth a shot?

Cap · Dec 9, 2014

First of all, I feel obliged to say that I am practitioner of traditional approach and I am not here to defend modern astrology. I don't think that "outer" planets co-rule the signs. But also, I don't think that they are completely meaningless in astrological sense.

Some things said here are simply not true.

Moor said:
-Pluto doesn't reflect light:

Uranus and and Neptune don't reflect light too- they are too far from any source of light, e.g. our star Sun.

Every object in the Universe reflects the light (except black hole maybe) and whether something has the property of light reflection or not, has nothing to do with the distance of the light source. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to have photos of those planets. That is what camera does: captures the REFLECTED LIGHT.

In this photo you can see light reflected from the planet Uranus.

Moor said:
-You can't see Pluto with naked eye:

Uranus and Neptune are also visible only through telescopes.

Uranus can be seen with naked eye. Here is an instruction how to see it yourself:

http://www.space.com/22983-see-planet-uranus-night-sky.html

Of several schools of traditional astrological thought closest to my personal understanding is Stoic view: Planets do not cause the events, planets are objects (or even beings) which SIGNIFY things. According to this view astrology is a science of interpretation and is divinational, not part of the physical sciences.

This is in total contrast with Aristotelian-Ptolemaic view in which planets CAUSE things to happen, they are causal agents, therefore astrology is virtually branch of physics, and in some sense part of natural sciences.

Ironically enough, latest scientific developments continuously confirm holographic nature of our Universe in which every part contains the same pattern and reflects all other parts in itself. This is perfectly aligned with Stoic view of astrology. It is not the size of the planets, nor their gravitational field, nor property of light reflection, nor our ability or disability to see them with naked eye what makes astrology to "work" but their configuration in the skies which is mirror-like reflection of people, things and events (under assumption that the interpretation is correct). As above - so bellow.

I completely agree with KnS.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:
Another issue with the outer planets in general is that they lack much of the tools that the classical planets have. This isn't just referring to dignities (though that is a large part of it), but they also lack nature, sect, gender, years, winds, orbs, signatures, etc. This may all seem superfluous or unnecessary, but its significance really cannot be overstated. Without these associations, the outer planets are essentially blank orbs without instruction or meaning.

But it is important to remember that those planets still SIGNIFY things (and believe me, my most accurate predictions in sport astrology are based on them) - because everything is the reflection of everything. What exactly they signify we cannot be certain at this moment. Astrologers had observed traditional planets for thousands of years before they managed to establish their significations. So let us, in the same manner, observe "outer" planets at least for some time (I am talking hundreds of years) before we dismiss them or accept them.

JUPITERASC · Dec 9, 2014

Dirius said:
Hum, but in a way, wouldn't we be discussing what in OUR view is what astrological practices should be avoided?
(according to traditional ways of course).

As in playing devil's advocate for our own learning purpose?

Definitely agree that we need to be able to have such a discussion for learning purposes

Dirius said:
After reading stillone's post, I understand that there were some bad arguments
between moderns and classics here on AW in the past.

It always amazes me how internet forums sometimes act like proper communities,
even with specificly defining catastrophies that change the course of the community itself

Keep in mind Dirius that the Traditional forum is fairly 'new'
and was created in response to a request from Rebel Uranian http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43946
almost exactly three years ago to the day as it happens :smile:

Our Traditional sub-forum was created on Christmas Day 2011 when wilsontc said:

wilsontc said:
All,

You make good arguments. I agree and have created a Traditional Astrology subforum in the "Other Astrology" forum.

This subforum is only for Traditional Astrology discussions
(e.g., it is not for comparing Traditional Astrology to Modern Astrology, Modern Astrology interpretations, etc.).
If you see something in the Traditional Astrology subforum that is NOT Traditional Astrology,
please report it to the Moderator Team.

Merry Christmas!

Tim

and almost immediately there were issues
to which wilsontc responded as follows:

wilsontc said:
a50,
You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrologer50
I'm happy they have their own sub forum and as there has/is strong views on both sides of the fence.
Provided of course the 'keep off' modern threads, it 'has' to go both ways!!!

If someone indicates they have a "modern only" thread,
then only modern comments are allowed on the thread and no "traditionalists" need apply.

However, if it is a general thread,
both traditional and modern astrological approaches are welcome on that thread.

To date, while I have seen several "traditional only" threads,
I have seen very few "modern only" threads.

That is partly because there is such an overlap between "modern" and "traditional" methods
and many "modern astrologers" use some "traditional" techniques
as well as modern in their interpretations
(e.g., Mars ruling both Aries and Scorpio).

About the new forum,
Tim

Dirius · Dec 9, 2014

Thanks for the quotes and links :lol:

But after reading a few posts, perhaps there is no way to avoid it.

reading http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43946 , seems like a nice example of AW's history lol, thnx for the link!

Its funny because in that post it would seem as if the moderns were the ones attacking and crucifying the traditionalists....what changed

?

Vista · Dec 9, 2014

I miss Astrologer50, I always felt badly about what happened although she was banned before I was an moderator. She was on astro.com for ahwile but I haven't seen her over there either lately.

I think what Wilson commented illustrates we may need an "Eclectic" subforum as well in which astrologers can combine different methods and make them their own. I did present this idea(StillOne's) to the owner of AW as well.

JUPITERASC said:
Definitely agree that we need to be able to have such a discussion for learning purposes

Keep in mind Dirius that the Traditional forum is fairly 'new'
and was created in response to a request from Rebel Uranian http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43946
almost exactly three years ago to the day as it happens

Our Traditional sub-forum was created on Christmas Day 2011 when wilsontc said:

and almost immediately there were issues
to which wilsontc responded as follows:

JUPITERASC · Dec 9, 2014

Dirius said:
Thanks for the quotes and links

But after reading a few posts, perhaps there is no way to avoid it.

reading http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43946 , seems like a nice example of AW's history lol, thnx for the link!

Its funny because in that post it would seem as if the moderns
were the ones attacking and crucifying the traditionalists....what changed ?

Apparently members of either approach
appear to be under the impression that the other 'is attacking'
so probably nothing has changed in that respect Dirius

What has changed though, is that Tradtiionalists have a subforum
and that is much appreciated

JUPITERASC · Dec 9, 2014

Vista said:
I miss Astrologer50, I always felt badly about what happened although she was banned before I was an moderator.
She was on astro.com for ahwile but I haven't seen her over there either lately.

I think what Wilson commented illustrates we may need an "Eclectic" subforum as well
in which astrologers can combine different methods and make them their own.
I did present this idea(StillOne's) to the owner of AW as well.

"Eclectic" subforum is a great idea, dr. farr would have loved it
sadly though he is unwell and has not posted now for many months
While on the subject, we also need a Forensic astrology sub-forum
so we can differentiate between for example Horary Missing Persons questions
and 'possible abduction' - a thread on a possible 'abduction' was posted only today

dhundhun · Dec 9, 2014

Vista said:
I miss Astrologer50, I always felt badly about what happened although she was banned before I was an moderator.

There are many members, who just do service of attacking. There are many members, who try to contribute. It is moderators responsibility to balance. The moderator then in balancing-act banned.

It is not uncommon for people interested in Astrology to go insane. Usually they are ruled by Uranus (or at least Uranus in dominant in chart). Most of them are genus in their own way. And so, some of them start crossing boundaries repeatedly.

I think, WORST HAPPENS, WHEN AN ASTROLOGER THINKING HIMSELF/HERSELF ONE OF THE GREATEST ASTROLOGERS GETS LIFE SHOCK such as getting BANNED.

MODERATORS should be able to sense some people DISAPPEAR from forum AFTER TOO MANY ATTACKS. EVERY ONE DOES NOT HAVE THICK SKIN. When contributing members start disappearing due to attacks, it is time for MODERATORS to wake up.

Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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