Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Whoam1

Well-known member
We should use all forms and look at the factors that are similar in all of them for the most accurate descriptions of our natal charts.

For me I have
Strong cap
Strong Neptune (unaspected)
Strong Saturn
Angular Merc./Jup/Sun
 

Alzander

Well-known member
I would add and agree that Capricorn is an emotional deep sign but also extremely stable and often content with oneself and comfortable in their own company and deep inner-self.

I am a Pisces sun with Capricorn moon, Jupiter and Neptune. (Pisces Mercury, mars and Saturn) Virgo rising Gemini midheaven. Venus Taurus, Uranus Aquarius and Pluto Sagittarius.

I find that the Capricorn aspects really stabilise my emotional and moody nature. Capricorn is very often mistaken as cold and detached but it’s emotional nature is often within and deeply rooted yet stuck and stable there and fails to come to surface or be expressed openly. This ties in well with the understanding you’ve shared of Capricorn’s relation with being ruler of the sea in more ancient times, it does make a lot of sense as the sea is deep yet stable but predictable or unpredictable. Also in control.

The lack of expression of emotion is a great strength as it a weakness; this allows the person to move forward and be functional. Take cancer for example, it’s considered opposite zodiac, this sign also has interchangeable mood swings but the difference here is that the traits of cancer are to isolate themselves or build their own little world or surroundings, yet be very open and forceful with their emotional nature to others who they encounter. But with Capricorn, who may still also be lonely and enjoy it this way they are much more outgoing and goal-orientated pushing forward and outward in the big wide world. The holding back of physical emotional behaviour helps them to achieve and not be badly influenced by what’s going on inside them. They will certainly open up to loved ones when they are comfortable doing so and are highly like this with a romantic partner (particularly Capricorn moon) high sex drive and sexual intensity are common here. This is where hair can be let down so to speak and things really get steamy lol.

But yeah not sure I’ve helped there in any way, probably just waffled on a bit too much heh.
As a water sign with lots of the so-called earth Capricorn in my chart I can definitely resonate with this thread though and appreciate the topic. Thanks.

Peace fellow StarLovers.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I would add and agree that Capricorn is an emotional deep sign but also extremely stable and often content with oneself and comfortable in their own company and deep inner-self.

I am a Pisces sun with Capricorn moon, Jupiter and Neptune. (Pisces Mercury, mars and Saturn) Virgo rising Gemini midheaven. Venus Taurus, Uranus Aquarius and Pluto Sagittarius.

I find that the Capricorn aspects really stabilise my emotional and moody nature. Capricorn is very often mistaken as cold and detached but it’s emotional nature is often within and deeply rooted yet stuck and stable there and fails to come to surface or be expressed openly. This ties in well with the understanding you’ve shared of Capricorn’s relation with being ruler of the sea in more ancient times, it does make a lot of sense as the sea is deep yet stable but predictable or unpredictable. Also in control.

The lack of expression of emotion is a great strength as it a weakness; this allows the person to move forward and be functional. Take cancer for example, it’s considered opposite zodiac, this sign also has interchangeable mood swings but the difference here is that the traits of cancer are to isolate themselves or build their own little world or surroundings, yet be very open and forceful with their emotional nature to others who they encounter. But with Capricorn, who may still also be lonely and enjoy it this way they are much more outgoing and goal-orientated pushing forward and outward in the big wide world. The holding back of physical emotional behaviour helps them to achieve and not be badly influenced by what’s going on inside them. They will certainly open up to loved ones when they are comfortable doing so and are highly like this with a romantic partner (particularly Capricorn moon) high sex drive and sexual intensity are common here. This is where hair can be let down so to speak and things really get steamy lol.

But yeah not sure I’ve helped there in any way, probably just waffled on a bit too much heh.
As a water sign with lots of the so-called earth Capricorn in my chart I can definitely resonate with this thread though and appreciate the topic. Thanks.

Peace fellow StarLovers.

What's good is that you're positive about your Moon in Capricorn, which usually gets a very bad rap. But, you do have a lot of mitigating factors, especially your Piscean placements. That's great that it's working for you!
 

Whoam1

Well-known member
I would add and agree that Capricorn is an emotional deep sign but also extremely stable and often content with oneself and comfortable in their own company and deep inner-self.

I am a Pisces sun with Capricorn moon, Jupiter and Neptune. (Pisces Mercury, mars and Saturn) Virgo rising Gemini midheaven. Venus Taurus, Uranus Aquarius and Pluto Sagittarius.

I find that the Capricorn aspects really stabilise my emotional and moody nature. Capricorn is very often mistaken as cold and detached but it’s emotional nature is often within and deeply rooted yet stuck and stable there and fails to come to surface or be expressed openly. This ties in well with the understanding you’ve shared of Capricorn’s relation with being ruler of the sea in more ancient times, it does make a lot of sense as the sea is deep yet stable but predictable or unpredictable. Also in control.

The lack of expression of emotion is a great strength as it a weakness; this allows the person to move forward and be functional. Take cancer for example, it’s considered opposite zodiac, this sign also has interchangeable mood swings but the difference here is that the traits of cancer are to isolate themselves or build their own little world or surroundings, yet be very open and forceful with their emotional nature to others who they encounter. But with Capricorn, who may still also be lonely and enjoy it this way they are much more outgoing and goal-orientated pushing forward and outward in the big wide world. The holding back of physical emotional behaviour helps them to achieve and not be badly influenced by what’s going on inside them. They will certainly open up to loved ones when they are comfortable doing so and are highly like this with a romantic partner (particularly Capricorn moon) high sex drive and sexual intensity are common here. This is where hair can be let down so to speak and things really get steamy lol.

But yeah not sure I’ve helped there in any way, probably just waffled on a bit too much heh.
As a water sign with lots of the so-called earth Capricorn in my chart I can definitely resonate with this thread though and appreciate the topic. Thanks.

Peace fellow StarLovers.


Thank you for sharing! Yes Capricorn stabilizes external emotions, especially when under more Saturnine influence. My Saturn-Sun-Moon cosmic trine is effective in doing this in my chart. I see your Saturn and Neptune are in mutual rulership, as well as exaltation planets are mutual. That's really cool.

I have my Sun and A.C. ruler, jupiter, angular and exalted with Pof in Pisces. I have an unaspected Neptune Capricorn in the 1st house.

Eventhough i don't have much Pisces in me, my unaspected Neptune is probably the strongest planet in my chart. My exalted Capricorn Mars and dominant Capricorn Neptune, on top of my Saturn Cosmic trine, overlay similar themes to those in your chart. My Saturn is also in a constellation that is like part of Capricorn and Pisces in that it is water in nature.
 

Alzander

Well-known member
Moon in cap certainly gets a lot of negative attention but it’s mainly down to simply being the opposite sign to cancer which is its native sign. Just like Pisces or Sagittarius being in Mercury, opposite to Virgo and Gemini or libra and Taurus in mars opposite to Aries and Scorpio.

What I love and always remind people is the fact that nothing’s set in stone and everything has its good and bad qualities, this applies to life as much as it does astrology; Capricorn moon has a really powerful energy that when noticeable can either freak people out and put them off or entice them and intrigue them. It is often said if you research it that this placement attracts the opposite sex quite highly and I’m not just saying that because it’s my own placement in which I entered the world lol, this aspect enables people to be extremely productive in highly emotional and disheartening situations. Where someone may not be able to act efficiently and break down in tears or a panic attack, a capricorn moon will come along and get the job done...fully aware of how bad etc the scenario is yet able to resolve or help it. So this strength to the sign is something to definitely be more considerate and aware of, doesn’t just apply to moon aspects but also sun and most certainly mars too.

Peace fellow StarLovers.
 

Whoam1

Well-known member
Capricorn moon is badass. Both tropical and Sidereal.

Tropical example- Julius Caesar
Sidereal example- Joan Jett
 

Alzander

Well-known member
Thank you for sharing! Yes Capricorn stabilizes external emotions, especially when under more Saturnine influence. My Saturn-Sun-Moon cosmic trine is effective in doing this in my chart. I see your Saturn and Neptune are in mutual rulership, as well as exaltation planets are mutual. That's really cool.

I have my Sun and A.C. ruler, jupiter, angular and exalted with Pof in Pisces. I have an unaspected Neptune Capricorn in the 1st house.

Eventhough i don't have much Pisces in me, my unaspected Neptune is probably the strongest planet in my chart. My exalted Capricorn Mars and dominant Capricorn Neptune, on top of my Saturn Cosmic trine, overlay similar themes to those in your chart. My Saturn is also in a constellation that is like part of Capricorn and Pisces in that it is water in nature.
That cosmic trine you have is fascinating.

I’ve always found it bizarre how I have such major planets all in Pisces then a load in Capricorn too. This also correlates with my houses, particularly 4th & 5th house(s) loaded with cap and 6th & 7th house(s) full of Pisces.

This is where it becomes so obvious what signs people are because of the evident traits and tendencies they display lol. I find such charts fascinating and just as interesting as those with a complete mix and no planets in the same signs.
 

Whoam1

Well-known member
That cosmic trine you have is fascinating.

I’ve always found it bizarre how I have such major planets all in Pisces then a load in Capricorn too. This also correlates with my houses, particularly 4th & 5th house(s) loaded with cap and 6th & 7th house(s) full of Pisces.

This is where it becomes so obvious what signs people are because of the evident traits and tendencies they display lol. I find such charts fascinating and just as interesting as those with a complete mix and no planets in the same signs.

My unaspected Neptune is another interesting part of my chart. I have had reoccurring nightmares with actual meanings, I'm an empath, my mood is like the Sea (changing constantly and for example right around certain lunar phases and tragic events I will go through sudden mood shifts), I have said it was going to storm on perfectly sunny days without checking the weather and sure enough I have been right a good many times.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
We should use all forms and look at the factors that are similar in all of them for the most accurate descriptions of our natal charts.

For me I have
Strong cap
Strong Neptune (unaspected)
Strong Saturn
Angular Merc./Jup/Sun
hieroglyph.png
 

Alzander

Well-known member
Don’t you guys just love the ancient times? The mystery, the culture, the cleaner pure skies in which to observe from. ****, how magnificent.

This is why it slightly saddens me how many people can’t give it a chance and begin to understand the beauty of astrology, or at the very least, the stars.

Sure there was still bloody violence, famine, greed and patriarchal rule, only a fool would disagree with that but still, the wonders of time my friends, the wonders of time.
 

Alzander

Well-known member
On the subject of Capricorn and all it entails, perhaps we should delve in to the Saturn return as well.

I am very intrigued to see how my Saturn return plays out in my life and when it exactly may come, as I am no expert or educated in this area I shall leave it to you fine specimens to develop the discussion.

P.S will a Saturn return really shake me up based on what I’ve shown you from my chart? What do you foresee for me and yourselves? Feel free to share your charts too as I would like to see them. Thanks.
 

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Don’t you guys just love the ancient times?
The mystery, the culture, the cleaner pure skies
in which to observe from. ****, how magnificent.

This is why it slightly saddens me
how many people can’t give it a chance
and begin to understand the beauty of astrology, or
at the very least, the stars.

Sure there was still bloody violence, famine, greed
and patriarchal rule, only a fool would disagree with that
but still, the wonders of time my friends, the wonders of time.

sea-devil.jpg
 

waybread

Well-known member
.....

However, the seasonal considerations joke is not applicable to Taurus with the Pleaides, which appears in the paleolithic Lascaux cave. The 6000 years old or more constellations of Scorpio and Leo would also not as tightly align with Ptolemaic logic.

What happened with the Pleiades is that they were used in phenology and in the ancient celestial calendars. Though faint, they are usually easy to find. It's hard to say how Paleolithic people understood the heavens.

The point being that a celestial calendar is not merely or only one kind of zodiac or calendar vs. another. The Babylonians did both. Did they have a problem? On your sidereal thread, I posted all kinds of information on how critical solar positions were to the henge and barrow builders of the Bronze Age-- and even earlier; and how the solstices, equinoxes, and their midpoints were important holidays in historic times.

You can't just blow off evidence simply because you dislike it.

The evidence of constellations long before seasons around the 2nd century Mediterranean make me highly doubt Ptolemaic rationale.

Hardly. Ancient people were entirely aware of the seasons, although the seasons varied based on location. How could they not have been? The seasons were different in Scandinavia than in the Mediterranean islands, but summer and winter are quite different, regardless.

If it was seasonal, then it would make the astrological sign POWERLESS in the Southern Hemisphere (and arguably in high latitudes and the equator). For those reasons I completely reject the powers of Ptolemy and prefer to ascribe them to the sidereal images, as the Babylonians and early Hellenistic, Persian and Indian astrologers did.

Again, Petosiris, you simply ignore solid information that you don't like.

1. The Hellenistic astrologers essentially had a northern hemisphere project. They doubted that the equator and antipodes (as anciently defined) were habitable by humans. Maybe you shouldn't even try to apply Hellenistic astrology to the southern hemisphere if you wish to retain your loyal adherence to ancient astrology.

2. High latitudes definitely have seasons. Have you ever been to the Arctic? What doesn't work so well at high latitudes are house systems.

3. Actually, there is no evidence that signs have power. Planets have power. They are the actors, like the subject noun in a sentence. Signs work like adjectives or adverbs. (Or is this too modern for you?)

4. Then you have to explain why southern hemisphere astrologers have long used the northern-based zodiac with good results in chart-readings.

5. Equinoxes and solstices occur on the same dates in both hemispheres.

There is not a single coherent reason from a divinatory or naturalistic standpoint to continue to use the tropical zodiac for me astrologically. It might be divinatory in some numerological or lots sense, but it is not astrology rationally. Whenever tropical astrologers today present rationales and arguments, they are always logical fallacies and not indicative of their practice. To some extent, Ptolemy had good reasons for his astrology and cosmology at the time, today astrologers do not.

Oh, sure there are coherent reasons. Nobody says you have to use tropical. It's just a bit much, however, for you to scold people who prefer tropical.

The main reason is that the tropical system yields good readings, whether traditional western or modern. Or would you simply erase centuries of Muslim, western Medieval and Renaissance traditional astrology? Is it all rubbish, in your opinion, because they used a tropical zodiac?

Divination, for a number of ancient astrologers, was based on establishing the proper relationship with the god (usually Hermes) through preparation and prayer. You may be familiar with theurgy, whereby the adept astrologer actually thought he became the god. Whereas a mere mortal might err, the god's knowledge would be perfect.

If astrology truly is a form of divination, then it would be seem to be based upon something far more profound than which zodiac you used.

http://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/theurgy.html

http://www.astrozero.co.uk/articles/DefiningtheMoment.pdf

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10004&view=next&sid=f8968e9a9a54d46e498ba469e8bde1b4

On Neo-platonism in astrology: http://www.astrolom.no/wp-content/uploads/1443_2451P2695439.pdf

Well, if there are deeper truths underpinning astrology, the cosmos, and everything, astrology cannot be so feeble or shallow so as to hinge simply upon one particular method.

If you find sidereal astrology to be profoundly meaningful on a personal level, that's great.
 

waybread

Well-known member
You both are techniquely in the wrong as ancient astrologers that I am speaking of went outside and looked at the stars...

As ephemerides became available in ancient times, astrologers looked less at the heavens and more to ephemerides. See: Daryn Lehoux, Observation and Prediction in Ancient Astrology. Studies in History and Philosophy of Science 35 (2004) p. 227-246.
 

Whoam1

Well-known member
On the subject of Capricorn and all it entails, perhaps we should delve in to the Saturn return as well.

I am very intrigued to see how my Saturn return plays out in my life and when it exactly may come, as I am no expert or educated in this area I shall leave it to you fine specimens to develop the discussion.

P.S will a Saturn return really shake me up based on what I’ve shown you from my chart? What do you foresee for me and yourselves? Feel free to share your charts too as I would like to see them. Thanks.

You have to look at Mars too, it rules Capricorn as well. I use the actual constellations in my chart is have to hand draw it to display it.
 

waybread

Well-known member
....

And of course, philosophically speaking, there are two other options, there might be a third zodiac that is better than those two, or that there is no validity to any zodiac.

The third zodiac was and could be now based upon constellations, not signs. See John Lash, Quest For The Zodiac.

The fourth "zodiac" isn't entirely a zodiac so much as a whole-sky system. See Bernadette Brady's attempt to recreate the Babylonian heavens for our time. She calls it "visual astrology."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cao-fyS3Ao

I'm not a fan of heliocentric astrology, but there's that.

Then Magi astrology pays special attention to declination (parallels and counter-parallels.)
 

waybread

Well-known member
Whoam1, If you're interested in the history of Capricorn, I'll pass along this picture of Phoenician ships. Sorry I don't have a date on it, but their civilization existed from about 2500 BCE through the early common era.

The ship heads have been described as horses, but they look goat-like to me. Note the tails.
 

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