Does astrology make humans programmed souls?
- Thread starter Markz0ne24
- Start date
Lin's post prompts me to comment.
1. We are born with a certain chart that prescribes our potentials.
2. We spend our childhood immersed in the culture of birth, and immediately influenced by parents.
At puberty our mind crystallizes and becomes different in quality from that of the child. The sponge-like absorptive character of the mind in childhood rapidly acquires structure, hardens. Our individuality is now set firmly and will not change.
All of our childhood experience, good or bad, is deeply ingrained in our psyche, and this creates our "innate" character. Our path has been marked -- we set off in a certain direction. That direction will lead us into new experience (which is set out along the path waiting for our arrival) which in turn forms our character even further.
So now we are pulling a cart full of pre-conditioning along with us. Unless we can empty and finally discard that cart, we are controlled by it. We have been convinced (unconsciously, by childhood experience), that we must stay in the traces pulling that cart until the day of doom. Very few people ever fully rid themselves of the cart and its baggage.
Suppose my father was a cruel and brutal man, and I bear the scars to prove it. Now I become a father. As a parent one of two courses is probable regarding how I deal with my own children -- I will either be a cruel and brutal father like my own dad, or I will react to that childhood cruelty by being very soft, permissive etc with my own kids, having taken a sacred vow to never treat my children as I had been treated. Either way, my actions as a parent are pre-determined by my own childhood experience.
We need to be aware that the horsocope shows not only our deep and immutable natural inclinations but also the nature of those early experiences. [Think on the essential and the accidental dignities]. Both our inherent nature and the nature of our formative experiences is shown in the horoscope. If this is so then there really isn't much room for a sovereign free will.
Liken your life to a ship, departing San Francisco and bound for Yokohama. Once at sea, the command of the ship, its course, is in the hands of the master. If he runs into a storm, or pirates, or sirens beckoning from the rocks of Scylla, he can change course, speed up, slow down...but he must arrive at Yokohama. Depending on the time of departure from San Francisco, those storms and pirates and sirens are already in his future path, waiting. The changes of course the ship makes (decisions, choices, free will) are already determined because the events to be met are there waiting. The ship must respond to them, and the captain's choices are determined by his character.
President Lincoln had a devil of a time finding a general who would fight the war and win. Then he found Grant. Here was courage, aggression, determination, tenacity in one package. Grant's character determined his choices in battle and won the war. That innate character met each passing circumstance -- made choices, exercised free will -- in accord with the general's inherent and acquired traits. In other words, his choices were pre-determined. McClellan would not have made the same choices.
A good book that has to do with this theme: Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Frankl.
Oh. I don't think the word "programmed" is appropriate here. We are not computers or robots. We are living creatures (I think they call it sentient). We have emotions, desires (our bane) and so on. We do have the power of choice (free will) although it is far more limited than most of us would like to believe.
1. We are born with a certain chart that prescribes our potentials.
2. We spend our childhood immersed in the culture of birth, and immediately influenced by parents.
At puberty our mind crystallizes and becomes different in quality from that of the child. The sponge-like absorptive character of the mind in childhood rapidly acquires structure, hardens. Our individuality is now set firmly and will not change.
All of our childhood experience, good or bad, is deeply ingrained in our psyche, and this creates our "innate" character. Our path has been marked -- we set off in a certain direction. That direction will lead us into new experience (which is set out along the path waiting for our arrival) which in turn forms our character even further.
So now we are pulling a cart full of pre-conditioning along with us. Unless we can empty and finally discard that cart, we are controlled by it. We have been convinced (unconsciously, by childhood experience), that we must stay in the traces pulling that cart until the day of doom. Very few people ever fully rid themselves of the cart and its baggage.
Suppose my father was a cruel and brutal man, and I bear the scars to prove it. Now I become a father. As a parent one of two courses is probable regarding how I deal with my own children -- I will either be a cruel and brutal father like my own dad, or I will react to that childhood cruelty by being very soft, permissive etc with my own kids, having taken a sacred vow to never treat my children as I had been treated. Either way, my actions as a parent are pre-determined by my own childhood experience.
We need to be aware that the horsocope shows not only our deep and immutable natural inclinations but also the nature of those early experiences. [Think on the essential and the accidental dignities]. Both our inherent nature and the nature of our formative experiences is shown in the horoscope. If this is so then there really isn't much room for a sovereign free will.
Liken your life to a ship, departing San Francisco and bound for Yokohama. Once at sea, the command of the ship, its course, is in the hands of the master. If he runs into a storm, or pirates, or sirens beckoning from the rocks of Scylla, he can change course, speed up, slow down...but he must arrive at Yokohama. Depending on the time of departure from San Francisco, those storms and pirates and sirens are already in his future path, waiting. The changes of course the ship makes (decisions, choices, free will) are already determined because the events to be met are there waiting. The ship must respond to them, and the captain's choices are determined by his character.
President Lincoln had a devil of a time finding a general who would fight the war and win. Then he found Grant. Here was courage, aggression, determination, tenacity in one package. Grant's character determined his choices in battle and won the war. That innate character met each passing circumstance -- made choices, exercised free will -- in accord with the general's inherent and acquired traits. In other words, his choices were pre-determined. McClellan would not have made the same choices.
A good book that has to do with this theme: Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Frankl.
Oh. I don't think the word "programmed" is appropriate here. We are not computers or robots. We are living creatures (I think they call it sentient). We have emotions, desires (our bane) and so on. We do have the power of choice (free will) although it is far more limited than most of us would like to believe.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Two thousand years ago HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGERS did exactly as you recommend
THE NAUTICAL METAPHOR
or
ANALOGY OF A SHIP AT SEA
'…...Hellenistic astrologers use the nautical metaphor to describe a natal chart.
The ship itself = the native’s life = predominator.
First and second Trigon (triplicity) lords of predominator = winds that carry the ship to its destiny.
The third trigon (triplicity) lord = oars moving the ship.
Oikodespotes (Domicile Master) of chart = ship owner = the one who sets agenda or destiny for native
under restrictions set by bound ruler of the pre-dominator.
Kurios (Lord of the nativity) = Captain of the ship = Executor = the one responsible to bring the ship to the destination
set by Oikodespotes (Domicile Master).....'
'…..Ascendant sign = “helm” of ship = physical life.
Domicile Lord of Ascendant = Helmsman = First Officer of ship.
Lot of Fortune = everything that befalls the native that is not of his own doing.
Domicile Lord of Lot of Fortune = man on prow of ship = Second Officer who is on the look out
for the things and/or events that are going to befall the native.
It is important that the Lord of Lot of Fortune be able to communicate with the Domicile Master or Ascendant (Helmsman)
or Lord of the nativity (Kurios)....'
MORE ON THE NAUTICAL METAPHOR THAT COMPARES THE NATAL CHART TO A SHIP http://www.projecthindsight.com/
Elra
Active member
Thanks Greybeard for sharing these!
See below for my take on some of these transits, although I won't say too much as I do not have a visual of your Chart/s:
Pluto square Sun (8th) - Tension pulling one to ask very deep question/s that places one in a 'something has to give' state of being, there is incentive to transform sense of place in life/universe etc.
Neptune at the Ds - In my method of interpretation, I say Neptune is a planet that pulls one in with allure of mystery but then pushes one away to find 'answers' to its dissolving/confusing/dreamy energy...this then would have pushed you over to your transiting Jupiter which is a great planet to get answers/knowledge/expansion from....
Saturn Rx trine himself (waning trine from his own house) - The trine may of added to the feeling of a slave to destiny/cosmos that then becomes 'free' in that same realisation...
Jupiter crossing the Asc (and opp t.Neptune) - As I said earlier would have been providing the download of awakened/knowledge hitting your conscious mind/body...curious to know what sign this Jupiter was in?
Sec. Pr. Moon was crossing Asc, which she rules (conj. t.Jupiter & opp. t.Neptune) - Adding to the above self-realisations, although Moon crossing Asc. would have pulled you to a place where you feel you can nurture yourself/or where you feel at home,...namely the forest/woods!
Elra
See below for my take on some of these transits, although I won't say too much as I do not have a visual of your Chart/s:
Pluto square Sun (8th) - Tension pulling one to ask very deep question/s that places one in a 'something has to give' state of being, there is incentive to transform sense of place in life/universe etc.
Neptune at the Ds - In my method of interpretation, I say Neptune is a planet that pulls one in with allure of mystery but then pushes one away to find 'answers' to its dissolving/confusing/dreamy energy...this then would have pushed you over to your transiting Jupiter which is a great planet to get answers/knowledge/expansion from....
Saturn Rx trine himself (waning trine from his own house) - The trine may of added to the feeling of a slave to destiny/cosmos that then becomes 'free' in that same realisation...
Jupiter crossing the Asc (and opp t.Neptune) - As I said earlier would have been providing the download of awakened/knowledge hitting your conscious mind/body...curious to know what sign this Jupiter was in?
Sec. Pr. Moon was crossing Asc, which she rules (conj. t.Jupiter & opp. t.Neptune) - Adding to the above self-realisations, although Moon crossing Asc. would have pulled you to a place where you feel you can nurture yourself/or where you feel at home,...namely the forest/woods!
Elra
Prediction in the past tense is so much fun Elra.
But that is how we learn.
As far as t.Jupiter's sign, I told you....look at progressed Moon. I don't usually talk about my own chart unless I think it can illustrate something. I was born 6 Feb 1942.
The experience was 12th House...the Slave and the Liberated slave...if you want to look at it that way. It was an "epiphany" with deep and far-reaching effects in my life. Natal Jupiter stands on the cusp of the 12th and by transit comes conjunct progressed Moon and opposition t.Neptune right across the horizon.
Funny that no one asks how the realization that I am a puppet results in freedom. How can being a puppet, a slave, a computer program lead to liberation? It does. But only if you can see it. But most of us see that free will is an illusion and then moan and groan about cruel fate.
But that is how we learn.
As far as t.Jupiter's sign, I told you....look at progressed Moon. I don't usually talk about my own chart unless I think it can illustrate something. I was born 6 Feb 1942.
The experience was 12th House...the Slave and the Liberated slave...if you want to look at it that way. It was an "epiphany" with deep and far-reaching effects in my life. Natal Jupiter stands on the cusp of the 12th and by transit comes conjunct progressed Moon and opposition t.Neptune right across the horizon.
Funny that no one asks how the realization that I am a puppet results in freedom. How can being a puppet, a slave, a computer program lead to liberation? It does. But only if you can see it. But most of us see that free will is an illusion and then moan and groan about cruel fate.
ukdesifem
Well-known member
I'd still say that is choice/free will.
my view is that we cannot say who or what "programmes" us. We just have a set of circumstances to handle, and choice exists within those bounds.
Elra
Active member
Greybeard - I can understand the feeling of liberation after the 'puppet strings' profound moment. Mainly because I felt similar with my experience I have Jupiter in the 12th natally as well! One of my most loved placements.
Re: your birth date, retrograde Mercury in Aquarius - interesting, it is one degree away from my natal Mercury also in Aquarius (direct). We both have Venus in Aquarius too, although the same pattern again, your Venus is retrograde and mine is direct! Cool stuff.
Elra
I have Jupiter in the 12th natally as well! One of my most loved placements.Re: your birth date, retrograde Mercury in Aquarius - interesting, it is one degree away from my natal Mercury also in Aquarius (direct). We both have Venus in Aquarius too, although the same pattern again, your Venus is retrograde and mine is direct! Cool stuff.
Elra
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Elra
Active member
http://www.samharris.org/free-will
The above recently published book is for people who like the 'science' to legitimatise a door of perception to open up in themselves. It is not an Astrology book, but as I was reading it I couldn't help but want to show Harris that the field he terms the 'mysterious background' of our consciousness can actually be shown to be explained by quality Chart readings. But alas I will never meet the guy! haha
The above recently published book is for people who like the 'science' to legitimatise a door of perception to open up in themselves. It is not an Astrology book, but as I was reading it I couldn't help but want to show Harris that the field he terms the 'mysterious background' of our consciousness can actually be shown to be explained by quality Chart readings. But alas I will never meet the guy! haha