Delineating Marriage (Medieval Method)

Abby83

Well-known member
that's not exactly 'all' Tsmall said though
Tsmall said much more than that :smile:

i.e.
aspects to Mercury do not necessarily show potential partners, marriages UNLESS Mercury is the almuten of marriage

so Tsmall has said Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception per se because reception requires an aspect
so
this particular examples shows 'generosity'
but not reception

Yes that's pretty much what I have said. Mercury IS THE ALMUTEN OF MARRIAGE. I don't know why you're bringing up the mutual reception part. That has already been cleared up by Tikana. I don't think you understand what im asking.

Forget about it. Obviously Im not supposed to know otherwise the information would come to me.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Yes that's pretty much what I have said. Mercury IS THE ALMUTEN OF MARRIAGE.
I don't know why you're bringing up the mutual reception part
.
I highlighted mutual reception because you said
So how do aspects to mercury (almuten of marriage) show potential partners, marriages. So far all Ive seen is Tsmall say they indicate generosity within a relationship.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=716&view=next
'generosity' is when planets are not in aspect
and so cannot be in mutual reception
i.e.
Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo are not in aspect

That has already been cleared up by Tikana.

Forget about it.
Obviously Im not supposed to know otherwise the information would come to me.
If you would read and study the entire thread from the beginning
and apply the principles :smile:
then all the information you require is there
to be fair Tsmall did say that no further comment can be made
unless there is a natal chart to refer to
Mercury in Libra and Venus in Virgo isn't mutual reception, per se, because reception requires an aspect.

What you have going on there is generosity...

and without a chart I really can't help you more
.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
Oh dear, it's not sinking in don't worry. I said venus semisextiles mercury which is a mutual reception but Tikana then said it wasn't a major aspect and doesn't count. I have read the whole thread.
 

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tsmall

Premium Member
So how do aspects to mercury (almuten of marriage) show potential partners, marriages. So far all Ive seen is Tsmall say they indicate generosity within a relationship.

Abby, I may have time to look further at this over the weekend, but first I have to ask how, and why, you calculated Mercury to be the Almuten of Marriage? What formula did you use for the Lot of Marriage? Mercury is in aversion to every planet in your chart, and cannot see the 7th house, or the ASC. If I were you, I'd be paying more attention to Venus for indications of marriage in your chart.
 

Abby83

Well-known member
Abby, I may have time to look further at this over the weekend, but first I have to ask how, and why, you calculated Mercury to be the Almuten of Marriage? What formula did you use for the Lot of Marriage? Mercury is in aversion to every planet in your chart, and cannot see the 7th house, or the ASC. If I were you, I'd be paying more attention to Venus for indications of marriage in your chart.

Seriously, if you don't have time it's ok. I don't expect you to go out of your way. Especially because im posting on someone else's thread.

I used the formula discussed in this thread. Just off top of my head calculated triplicity, term, face of planet, detriment fall etc -
1. 7th house cusp rules venus 5,3. Moon 4,3.

2. Lord of 7th house - venus in virgo. 3, -4. Moon 3. Mercury 5, 4, 1.

3. No planets in 7th house.

4. Moon - Jupiter 5,3. Sun 3. Saturn 1. Mercury -5.

5. Venus - Venus 3, -4. Moon 3. Mercury 5, 4, 1.

6. Part of Marriage - Satrurn 5. Mars 4. Venus 3. Moon 3, -5.

Total

Venus 9
Moon 11
Mercury 15

Mercury is therefore Almuten of Marriage.

Oh and I used the Arabic parts calculator to find Part of Marriage for woman which is 24 degrees Capricorn.
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
Seriously, if you don't have time it's ok. I don't expect you to go out of your way. Especially because im posting on someone else's thread.

I used the formula discussed in this thread. Just off top of my head calculated triplicity, term, face of planet, detriment fall etc - 7th house cusp ruler, lord of 7th house,
1. 7th house cusp rules venus 5,3. Moon4,3.

2. Lord of 7th house - venus in virgo. 3, -4. Moon 3. Mercury 5, 4, 1.

Well, the reason I asked is because it seems Bonatti was using Umar's calculations for the lots, and I don't have access to those off hand. I have Hellenistic software, and I get your lot of marriage either at 25 Cap 17 (according to Paulus) or 16 Leo 38 (according to Valens.) Either way, if you chose to use Mercury as the Almuten of Marriage you aren't going to get there. As I pointed out, Mercury in in a sign averse to all the other planets in your chart, is averse to the ASC and to the house you are asking about...aka, the 7th. I went back and read the part in Bonatti...and it seems, as usual, unclear if he was really saying we only look at the Almuten of marriage as the planet with the most dignity over the list Omni gave, or if we look to the planet that 1) has the most dignity over the 7th, and 2) can actually see into (as in regard, as in Ptolemaic aspect) the house in question. All of which brings us back to Venus in your chart.

Next then, according to Bonatti (and Masha'Allah, and Sahl, and Dorotheus) would be to look at the triplicity rulers of the sign in which Venus is posited. All that said, keep in mind that you know marriage will happen, since...aren't you married?
 

Abby83

Well-known member
Ok so yes that is correct re part of marriage in cap. So venus is the focus then, in detriment in virgo. So I take it as a marriage but with challenges, which is what I have.

I am married, and confused about this marriage. Omnisphericus also mentioned that sun in oriental placement in cardinal sign means a younger lover at an older age, and many lovers.
 
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tikana

Well-known member
can someone please explain this?

"how many planet that have dignity in the signs the sun is in, doe belong the sun, the sun applying to them, they not to them, so many husbands the woman shall have"
CA Vol III

example please

thnx
 

sp1ca

Well-known member
Re: Number of Marriages according to Dorotheus

Number of planets between Mars and MC in female chart shows number of husbands.

I have 5 :andy:

are we using more than one ruler because of the decans??

I'm little bit confused :pouty:

My placements and rulers:

7th house -> 26Gem07 (Mercury)
Mercury-> 29Vir32 (Mercury)

Venus in my 7th, (Venus)
Venus in 21Cancer46 (Moon)

Moon-> 20Aries31 (Mars)
Venus-> 21Cancer46 (Moon)

Part of Marriage-> 0Gem17 (Mercury)
Mercury-> 29Vir32 (Mercury)


:confused::confused::confused:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Number of Marriages according to Dorotheus

I have 5 :andy:

are we using more than one ruler because of the decans??

I'm little bit confused :pouty:

My placements and rulers:

7th house -> 26Gem07 (Mercury)
Mercury-> 29Vir32 (Mercury)

Venus in my 7th, (Venus)
Venus in 21Cancer46 (Moon)

Moon-> 20Aries31 (Mars)
Venus-> 21Cancer46 (Moon)

Part of Marriage-> 0Gem17 (Mercury)
Mercury-> 29Vir32 (Mercury)


:confused::confused::confused:
Useful if there were a chart to view :smile:
 

rafaella

Well-known member
can someone please explain this?

"how many planet that have dignity in the signs the sun is in, doe belong the sun, the sun applying to them, they not to them, so many husbands the woman shall have"
CA Vol III

example please

thnx

Hey Tik,

I think I got it.

My Sun is in 13 degree Capricorn, obviously Saturn and Mars are the two planets that have major dignity in Capricorn ( Saturn by domicile and Mars by exaltation). There are other planets as well that have dignity in Cap, but they are more minor (Venus by triplicity and Jupiter by term). And actually both have no aspects with sun in my chart so no need to pay attention to them.

"Do belong the Sun" - I assume he means behold? in That case any signs that would aspect Capricorn and whether I have either Mars or Saturn
aspecting Sun. I do, both Mars and Saturn aspect Sun. Mars in Capricorn, Saturn in Virgo.

Sun is at 13.14 Cap, Saturn as 13.50 Virgo RX, Mars at 17 Cap.

Sun is applying to both - conjunction to Mars and trine to Saturn. Does that mean 2 husbands? But Saturn is also applying to Sun due to rx, then that means 1 husband?

So Mars would describe the husband? Lets see... still unmarried so we will find out :)
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
These significators of no marriage don't work, if we only count applying aspects.
Separating one should be also considered.
You OMITTED most of the technique presented

by OP OMNISPHERICUS :smile:
i.e.

04-26-2012, 04:06 AM
Omnisphericus
user_offline.gif

Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 277


Delineating Marriage (Medieval Method)
This is very intriguing subject isn't it? :)

Well, I must mention in the very beginning in explaining the methods here that they are of medieval astrology type (Bonatti, Abu Ali, Al Khayat and etc.).
To say that the method is 'Traiditional' is really using very wide range of time span in which different techniques for delineating marriage were used.
For example, the Hellenistic Astrologer's (Valens, Dorotheus and etc.) have used methods on their own, methods which I'll probably (not even later) not explain on this thread, but we can open another thread for that matter.
As this section of Traditional Astrology is quite new and in its beginnings, we now trow out the techniques here and there and title them as "Traditional". I hope that in the future we can make sub sections of traditional astrology, such as: "Medieval Astrology", "Hellenistic Astrology", Renaissance Astrology" and etc..

There are certain rules in Medieval Astrology compiled which can give quite good and workable methods for delineating marriage. The rules one can learn for a short period of time, but the practice is what is needed in order these rules to become second nature of the astrologer's intuitive tool in delineating such things as Marriage in the chart. This is what I would like to do on this thread: to practice as much charts as I/we will have the time to do it.


The Technique

The Compound Almuten is what is very practical thing in almost all methods used in medieval delineation. It seems that Bonatti and other medievals were very fond on Compound Almutens.
I will first give delineation for male charts, and in some later post will explain the delineation for female charts.

Finding the Compound Almuten for Marriage:

Find the Rulers of all 5 dignities for these places:

1. 7th house cusp

2. Lord of the 7th house

3. Planets in 7th house (if any)

4. Moon

5. Venus

6. Part of Marriage (According to Hermes) (ASC + VE - SA) for Men.

The Planet which gets most points over these places is Almuten of Marriage.
But consider also if there are impediments to these places.
If there is affliction to 7th house (by some Malefic's square or opposition), to the Moon (aspect, combust, cadent, retrograde and etc.)

See if one of the individiaul Almutens over these places is joined to the Lord of the Ascendant or its Almuten or the Lord of the 7th or its Almuten.
If they are in trine or sextile, and if especially in reception, then the native will rejoice in living beautiful life with his wife according to his desire.

But if the aspects were without reception, or if the aspects were square or opposition, then the significations will be judged lower.

Bonatti:
Quote:
But if the lord of the Ascendant were joined to the lord of the 7''', so that the former were lighter than the latter, it signifies that the native will want to copulate with women. If indeed the 7'h sign were Cancer or Scorpio or
Pisces or there were a conjunction of the lord of the 7
th or its Almuten with the lord of the first or its Almuten in these (signs) or from these (signs) or with one of them, it signifies that the native will have many wives or a great number of other women. If however you find the contrary, you are able to judge otherwise."

Example:
35kl8as.png


This is the chart of Akihito, Emperor of Japan

His chart is given on astrodatabank site as a chart of a man with successful marriage.

First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1

2. Ruler of 7th, Mercury in 16 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Venus 2
Moon 1

3. Planets in 7th - there are no planets here

4. Moon 20 Pisces
Jupiter 5
Venus 4, 3
Mars, 3, 2, 1
Moon 3

5. Venus 15 Aquarius
Saturn 5, 3
Mercury, 3, 1
Jupiter 3, 2

6 Part of Marriage at 29 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3, 1
Mars 2

Total:
Mercury 12
Saturn 20
Jupiter 29

No need to calculate further, Jupiter is Almuten of Marriage.
Look how strong is that Jupiter up there on MC.
He is receiving the Sun by sextile and the Part of Marriage on the Ascendant.

7th house cusp not impeded.
Its lord - Mercury, cadent (but in the first sign), not afflicted by Malefic's square or opposition, not by combustion.
Moon - not afflicted.
Venus - Saturn receives here in Aquarius.
Part of Marriage not afflicted, but indeed highlightened by ASC and Sun.

Lord (and also Almuten) of the 1st, and the Lord (and also Almuten) of the 7th are in Sextile. Jupiter receives Mercury.

Quite fortunate chart for marriage.
 

petosiris

Banned
Hey Tik,

I think I got it.

My Sun is in 13 degree Capricorn, obviously Saturn and Mars are the two planets that have major dignity in Capricorn ( Saturn by domicile and Mars by exaltation). There are other planets as well that have dignity in Cap, but they are more minor (Venus by triplicity and Jupiter by term). And actually both have no aspects with sun in my chart so no need to pay attention to them.

"Do belong the Sun" - I assume he means behold? in That case any signs that would aspect Capricorn and whether I have either Mars or Saturn
aspecting Sun. I do, both Mars and Saturn aspect Sun. Mars in Capricorn, Saturn in Virgo.

Sun is at 13.14 Cap, Saturn as 13.50 Virgo RX, Mars at 17 Cap.

Sun is applying to both - conjunction to Mars and trine to Saturn. Does that mean 2 husbands? But Saturn is also applying to Sun due to rx, then that means 1 husband?

So Mars would describe the husband? Lets see... still unmarried so we will find out :)

Not according to the original method from Ptolemy, since Mars is under the rays, even though Saturn does indicate a husband since it is morning rising (even though it is retrograde) and applying to the Sun. Saturn alone makes sedate, useful and industrious husband.
 

Chrysalis

Well-known member
First we make Compound Almuten for these places:

1. 7th House Cusp at 28 Gemini:
Mercury 5, 3,
Saturn 3, 2
Jupiter 3
Sun 1

2. Ruler of 7th, Mercury in 16 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3
Venus 2
Moon 1

3. Planets in 7th - there are no planets here

4. Moon 20 Pisces
Jupiter 5
Venus 4, 3
Mars, 3, 2, 1
Moon 3

5. Venus 15 Aquarius
Saturn 5, 3
Mercury, 3, 1
Jupiter 3, 2

6 Part of Marriage at 29 Sag
Jupiter 5, 3
Sun 3
Saturn 3, 1
Mars 2

Total:
Mercury 12
Saturn 20
Jupiter 29

I don't understand the compound Almuten, how are these numbers calculated ?

And ive read though the whole thread, i just don't understand this part.
 
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