Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
May be but if you read several authors you can make out if a particular teacher tried to deviate or added something on their own. This is a common problem you will come across when you deal with any historic topic.

My issue is with the fact of on the one hand seeing traditional astrology has having "gravitas" while modern astrology "has no authorities", and if this is axiomatic or just merely apparent. Does this observation stand under scrutiny? It doesn't look that way to me.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
I think so but this thread is a continuation from a post in the traditional astrology section. The intention is to discuss on the amount of fate vs free will in both traditional and modern astrologies.

I don't see how such a discussion won't just remain circular as people rehash their opinions more trenchantly as the conversation develops. Unless people are open to seeing a different perspective from "the other team".
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
My issue is with the fact of on the one hand seeing traditional astrology has having "gravitas" while modern astrology "has no authorities", and if this is axiomatic or just merely apparent. Does this observation stand under scrutiny? It doesn't look that way to me.

I got your confusion, all the ancient astrologers are still the authorities but it is up to if you want to stick to the descriptions given by one particular astrologer for a particular placement or you want to mix all the descriptions from all the ancient astrologers.

The point I made on deviation is for basic tenets or doctrines. As I replied to wilsontc, if a traiditional astrolger says there is more free will than fate I would not take him seriously as a traditional astrologer because you are going away from the central doctrine laid out by ancient astrologers.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
I don't see how such a discussion won't just remain circular as people rehash their opinions more trenchantly as the conversation develops. Unless people are open to seeing a different perspective from "the other team".

That happened that is why discussing or debating online without a moderator to bring the participants back to the topic is always a challenge.
 

david starling

Well-known member
"Modern": If you don't see it coming, you won't know what to do when it gets there.
"Traditional": Even if you see it coming, you won't know what to do when it gets there.

^I thought this summed it up pretty well.
Of, course, knowing it's coming doesn't always mean you'll be able to handle it, but at least you can give it your best shot.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
This is another case of talking passed each other.

On the issue of authority -

What makes the authors of the current available ancient texts axiomatic, when they themselves state that they are culling from previous sources? Why do you point blank say that "all the ancient astrologers are still authorities"?

On the issue of free will vs. fate -

Can you point to something concrete that demonstrates that the fate/free-will problem is encoded in the basic tenets and doctrines?

but it is up to if you want to stick to the descriptions given by one particular astrologer for a particular placement or you want to mix all the descriptions from all the ancient astrologers.

Or, you can learn the basic tenets and doctrines (and not just follow the descriptions in a closed mix-and-match system) to come up with relevant prognostications for the time that you are actually practicing in.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
if a traiditional astrolger says there is more free will than fate I would not take him seriously as a traditional astrologer because you are going away from the central doctrine laid out by ancient astrologers.

The philosophy of an influential astrologer doesn't speak to the whole of his contemporaries or the entire tradition. Ptolemy was a reformist of astrology yet today we see him as one of the incontrovertible paragons of the tradition. (I actually remember one poster on here who was very angry at Ptolemy since he was the "inventor" of "traditional astrology" or something to that effect). Morin was another one for overhauling. Blind allegiance to tradition wasn't even the tradition for "traditional" astrologers. And this goes beyond the techniques and into their metaphysics etc.

I will reiterate my opinion that free-will is nestled in fate.
 
Last edited:

david starling

Well-known member
Is Saturn the key-indicator regarding the timing and nature of what fate
holds in store? (Houses and Aspects included.)

Also, since fate is about what happens in the future, does living in the Now make it irrelevant?
 

david starling

Well-known member
Practitioners of both "Traditionalistic* astrology and "Modernistic" astrology, are dependant upon the contributions of the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians. That includes the 12 equal Signs, and most of the Sign-imagery, as well as the use of the Ecliptic as the plane of measurement.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
@lostinstars, why do you see someone's awful actions as fated?

It was curious how you presented the example with Hitler. It was destiny that he was denied , but often times when people are denied sething, it's because they are meant for something more. And often,if we come from fear , we put ourselves in such situations, aka self sabotage. Hitler had the potential to be a great leader, but he didn't commit those crimes cos he got rejected from University. He did it cos that's how far his consciousness went to. He was spiteful and paranoid and fearful. So he just acted out on it. I don't want to say that the millions he killed were meant to die, because that's cruel. Maybe it's one of those things where evil must happen for a greater good,altho I don't see this in that case.

But back then, people were still in such a low consciousness where they would fear everything unknown and try to destroy it. So in a sense it was meant to happen because he couldn't go through his own barriers. I think we are past that point of polarization and seperation.

Truth is he still had free will to keep applying , but he chose something else. So was that fated? Or was it just a consequence of his choices? Many people get rejected something for years but they never stop trying. Life is so colorful that I don't think we can ever pinpoint it.

I'm not denying that there is a greater plan for all and for us as a race, but sometimes what looks to people as fate is merely trial and error as we are evolvingm. And that's hard to accept from some people because what's done is done and you can't change it, so it's easier to believe it's fate when it was all us.

Removing fate from the equations just puts a greater pressure on us as a collective and as imdividuals. So it's normal as we evolve more to deny that in a sense.

I do believe there is fate, as I'm the outcome is always the same. If you are meant to die you will die, but will you die being tortured or will you die peacefully in your home surrounded by family, you know?

If you are meant to have a child, you will, one way or another. But will it be with someone who will leave you, or will it be with the love of your life?

I don't thing those things are fated. I think they are based on our choices. The more we make a choice out of love, the more the outcome will be loving. Actions we take now impact the future and set a path for us that we call fate. At any given time with awareness we can change the path aka destiny. But awareness ain't easy. It's very hard to achieve.

It's very complex but the world will always have mysteries that we will never figure out. And what we don't know is what we need to surrender. So in a sense both are true and both are false.

Neither is wrong neither is right.

But one this is certain in life and that's change. Many acient natioens believed in God's , nowadays not many do, becauae we don't need them. We became the gods in a sense. We don't sacrifice goats to make a god merciful so that we have crops and something to eat. We have control over that and on whatever we have control, we don't need destiny cos we make it ourselves. But on the things we don't have control, that's where destiny steps in.

And I think there will always be a part where we have no control, for the purpose of humbling us, and teaching us we don't know everything,for the purpose of being open to learn more.

We can only read in astrology what we already see in an individual and explain it with their chart. But we cannot make predictions of how this individual will turn out or how their life will turn out.


I will actually be very curious for you to read my chart with your perspective and techniques ,maybe this way j will understand better where you are coming from.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I got married,

was hospitalized,

became a father

and many other things years before astrology entered my life
...all events marked by the astrological clock.
Anyway, you are welcome to your thoughts.
There isn't one astrological combination
that shows all of those life events.
Traditionally, CHRONOCRATOR techniques
for example usisng various TIME LORDS

are designed to specifically highlight ALL of those life events :smile:
in ancient times astrologers calculated TIME LORDS activity
without the aid of a computer
however
today
we have
software program DELPHIC ORACLE written by ZOIDSOFT
and
using the birth chart of George W Bush as an example
DELPHIC ORACLE calculates dates for eminence given Valens aphorisms
for the zodiacal releasing of the lot of spirit.

Using Time Lords in Delphic Oracle 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUilP6YuTGk

another clear illustration of TRADITIONAL TIME LORDS technique
this time using Johnny Carson natal
eminence and time lords explained - Hellenistic Astrology
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or-JF98q73Y&t=5s

Using the birth chart of Johnny Carson as an example
to examine the topic of eminence / fame in the nativity
and when one is likely to reach that peak if so indicated
using the technique of zodiacal releasing from the lot of spirit.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
What makes the authors of the current available ancient texts axiomatic, when they themselves state that they are culling from previous sources? Why do you point blank say that "all the ancient astrologers are still authorities"?

People who study, practise and contribute to a field in my opinion can be called authorities. I'm no expert in the history of traditional astrology, I got the book by Chris Brennan. Once I'm done reading the book I will be in a better position to answer who was actual an authority and who was just a scribe.

All ancient astrologers are still authoriites because they studied astronomy, observed skies and recorded things. If you ask me how do I know, Arabs would not have developed Lots without having the basics, nor the mathematics to understand, practise and contribute to astrology.

On the issue of free will vs. fate -

Can you point to something concrete that demonstrates that the fate/free-will problem is encoded in the basic tenets and doctrines?

When heavens moved things happened on the planet and in the lives of humans. Heavens influenced or caused events on earth. Humans can't make heavens move, so events are fated.

edit: If you can explain things happened in history based on planetary placements alone with no human agency that is also a good proof that things are fated.

Or, you can learn the basic tenets and doctrines (and not just follow the descriptions in a closed mix-and-match system) to come up with relevant prognostications for the time that you are actually practicing in.

Not clear on what exactly you mean but I believe you need to have a philosophical framework or basis else you would not know where you are deviating from the tradition or in any field for that matter.
 
Last edited:

lostinstars

Well-known member
Blind allegiance to tradition wasn't even the tradition for "traditional" astrologers. And this goes beyond the techniques and into their metaphysics etc.

I will reiterate my opinion that free-will is nestled in fate.

It is not blind allegiance but from personal experience and the validity of the ancient wisdom. I personally think intelligence of humans is overrated, berating something just becaues it is old is very silly.

You mean fate is responsible for your free will or the other way?
 
Last edited:

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Not clear on what exactly you mean but I believe you need to have a philosophical framework or basis else you would not know where you are deviating from the tradition or in any field for that matter.

Essentially I'm highlighting a letter of the law vs. a spirit of the law approach with that statement.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
@lostinstars, why do you see someone's awful actions as fated?

I called Hitler's actions fated because I came across this article sometime back.

https://astrologicalmind.wordpress....-it-possible-to-find-evil-in-the-natal-chart/

Every action you do has some consequence in your life but some actions are only meant for fate to unfold. When someone's actions influence on a global scale it is neither the person's ingenuity nor the person's caliber, he is an agent of fate.

That is why I said before Einstein is so overrated. His work was necessary to push the boundaries of science to understand about universe as well give birth to hydrogen bomb. Everyone has a role to play in the way fate unfolds, calling someone a genius or dumb has no significance.

I believe strongly with conviction that you can explain significant events in history with planetary placements.

I'm not ready to do readings yet, I will let you know once I'm ready.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
It is not blind allegiance but from personal experience and the validity of the ancient wisdom. I personally think intelligence of humans is overrated, berating something just becaues it is old is very silly.

You mean fate is responsible for your free will or the other way?

I agree that dismissing something out of hand because it's old is stupid and short-sighted - throwing out the baby with the bathwater so to speak. But what passes for the tradition of western astrology isn't Holy Writ. Some adherents of traditionalism display a dogmatism which connotes that ancient wisdom is perfect, and I don't share that view. An innovation could also come from a deep understanding of a subject and knowing the laws that underlie it. Evolution of a craft, and not just a mere deviation (which is more abundant).

Fate is the dominant, within the confines of fate you have choice in the sense that you can make of your materials what you will. Say you have a Mars/Jupiter conjunction in Aries on the Midheaven. You were born in a social milieu that allowed you the opportunity to become a career soldier, entrepreneur, or a pioneering explorer/adventurer. The aspect will manifest one way or another, but there is a range that is possible. It is in this range where your are accorded choice.
 
Top