Fate versus free will. OPINIONS??

RishiRahul

Well-known member
The way I see it, fate and (pre)determinism are not the same. Predetermination means that everything has been decided in advance. Which would also require an ultimate decider/planner which then brings us into another ontological dilemma. Fate just means that events follow/evolve according to a certain order. That order is Law of Attraction. Apart from that everything happens spontaneously.

So let's say you throw a ball. That ball, as soon as you let it go is going to follow a certain trajectory which can be calculated in advance and as soon as that ball is in the air you won't be able to change that trajectory. We could say that trajectory is fated. However, when you throw that ball, how fast and therefore how far you throw that ball, into what direction you throw that ball or if you throw that ball at all is not predetermined and therefore cannot be calculated in advance. All we can say is that there's a lot of potential and possibilities for someone who has a ball in his hands and based on our previous performances maybe even a lot of probabilities can be seen and predictions being made. Similar with astrology and all those other tools.


Then why is that one can tell the difference between fate and free will?

The ball story= once he ball has been thrown it is thrown.
Supposing that if it is not thrown or something else can be remote thinking too.

What if the basic nature of the person & how the emotion & environment affecting was already calculated as a complex mathematical matrix & arrived at?

Maybe most would hate the idea, while a rare few would tolerate or accept it. But the normal mind is comfortable with the easier or soothing belef...

RishiRahul

RishiRahul
 

muchacho

Well-known member
Then why is that one can tell the difference between fate and free will?

The ball story= once he ball has been thrown it is thrown.
Supposing that if it is not thrown or something else can be remote thinking too.

What if the basic nature of the person & how the emotion & environment affecting was already calculated as a complex mathematical matrix & arrived at?

Maybe most would hate the idea, while a rare few would tolerate or accept it. But the normal mind is comfortable with the easier or soothing belef...

RishiRahul

RishiRahul
Well, that's what I was saying earlier, from a mere intellectual position you can't tell the difference between a world where free will rules and a world where everything (including thoughts and emotions) is predetermined. So you can't solve that issue intellectually.

Anyway, this issue only arises when reflective thinking is dominant. When you are fully immersed in the here and now as it happens in flow or samadhi then there's no room for such thoughts. There's only acting. The question if you are the one who's in charge or some other force won't even arise because from a position of oneness that would be an absurd thing to ask.

And no matter how you intellectually resolve this issue of free will vs. predetermination, on a visceral level you can't help but act as if you had free will. So in that sense whatever we are discussing here is going to be without real consequences. But it's fun to intellectually play around with different concepts and every astrologer has to find an answer to those questions because it will determine how s/he will do astrology.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
This question on freewill has been agitating minds for centuries.
That's right. Humans have been asking the exact same existential questions for centuries and they will keep asking and debating the exact same existential questions for centuries to come because there's just no intellectual solution to those problems except a still mind. :innocent:
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
Well, that's what I was saying earlier, from a mere intellectual position you can't tell the difference between a world where free will rules and a world where everything (including thoughts and emotions) is predetermined. So you can't solve that issue intellectually.

Anyway, this issue only arises when reflective thinking is dominant. When you are fully immersed in the here and now as it happens in flow or samadhi then there's no room for such thoughts. There's only acting. The question if you are the one who's in charge or some other force won't even arise because from a position of oneness that would be an absurd thing to ask.

And no matter how you intellectually resolve this issue of free will vs. predetermination, on a visceral level you can't help but act as if you had free will. So in that sense whatever we are discussing here is going to be without erence from an intellectualreal consequences. But it's fun to intellectually play around with different concepts and every astrologer has to find an answer to those questions because it will determine how s/he will do astrology.


Thats what I was at. If you cannot tell the difference from an intellectual state of mind, then from which state of mind can one tell the difference? The still state of mind?

If you trying to imply that there is hardly any difference, thats what my belief says too.

RishiRahul
 

carpediem

Active member
Hello,

Very correctly said, I feel!
Certain parts above highlighted by me are really well said.

I would like to add that if 75% is astrology, there are other very deterministic divinations like palmistry, numerology & others'; thebalance may be unexplained/unseen.
After experiencing the 3 divinations well, I an only state that none of them individually are complete! which goes to imply that out of the other 25% as you mentioned which cannot be explained by astrology, there are other divinatory tools too (even besides the 3 I dabble in).

RishiRahul

Hi RishiRahul. Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I think other forms of divination can provide useful guidance. And yes, I agree that human perception is inherently limited. I had one experience with palmistry many years ago. The reader's analysis was surprisingly accurate and specific. With respect to numerology, I've read a few Marty Leed's books, which connect astrology, numerology, and gematria.
 
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RishiRahul

Well-known member
Hi RishiRahul. Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I think other forms of divination can provide useful guidance. And yes, I agree that human perception is inherently limited. I had one experience with palmistry many years ago. The reader's analysis was surprisingly accurate and specific. With respect to numerology, I've read a few Marty Leed's books, which connect astrology, numerology, and gematria.

Thank you!
Firstly, Astrology is not a flavour which is a must for success, as there are many very successful people in the world who did not require astrology to go t success.

But when we use astrology to define free will & destiny, we should keep in mind that astrology is not the only predictive tool and it has its limitations at predicting.
This may also be due to lack of adequate knowledge/application.

It is best to accept astrology as one of the many deterministic predictive tools.

For example, let us take Palmistry. Which is only a small part of physiognomy.Every part of our body speaks divination; only that we do not know it entirely.

Similarly I have found numerology to speak wonders where I could not do so as well through palmistry & even astrology!
This goes for Palmistry too. When palmistry speaks,many divinations can keep quiet!

Again, when astrology speaks, the other divinations can keep quiet too!

I have observed 'fate or free will' discussions occur mainly in astrology forums , rather vedic astrology forums; but not palmistry & other forums.



RishiRahul
 
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mathur_dinesh

Well-known member
You are right Muchacho. This question is beyond intellectual analysis and a still mind is beyond most of us. Those who are able to still their minds do not perhaps need astrology.
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
This question is beyond intellectual analysis and a still mind is beyond most of us. Those who are able to still their minds do not perhaps need astrology.


Maybe they do not need other divinations to wonder about Destiny & Free Will; being convinced of the futility of what we suppose/perceive as 'Free Will' to 'change destiny' or 'go beyond destiny'!!......!

RishiRahul
 

craft94

Well-known member
I don't believe that everything is predestined. If that's the case, what would be the point of looking into natal charts? I thought the goal was to gain control of your stars rather than letting them control you. Self-mastery.

I don't believe everything is the result of free will either. There are plenty of things beyond our control. For example, no one chooses to be born nor do we have any control over the circumstances of our birth. I think transits often represent these outside forces and their effect on our lives. But what we do choose to do with these things is not predestined. We choose our own fates.
 

craft94

Well-known member
This is actually something I've been thinking about lately, specifically in the context of horary astrology. While I understand that others find it useful, I've largely given up on horary astrology because it only causes me to think negatively. If I ask a question such as, "what does this boy think of me?" it could be helpful because it could help me make choices such as whether or not to contact him. But I'm not sure how much I believe in it. Most horary astrologers I've come across seem to favor theories of predestination. I disagree with this. I believe we choose our own fates and some questions are impossible to answer. For example, if I ask a question like "will I be alone forever?" An astrologer might say yes. Maybe it's what the chart says, maybe Venus is badly placed but I don't think it's something that's set in stone. However, if I argue with this astrology, they might say, "stop lying to yourself, fate is fate, you're delusional" and I'll start to get depressed. And ironically that depression WILL lead me to be alone forever. If I choose to believe it, I'll give up and any potential lover will turn away. If I choose not to believe in it, if I choose to think positively, I will be more likely to find someone. I don't believe these things are set in stone.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
GoetheQuote-820x328.jpg
 

RishiRahul

Well-known member
Maybe they do not need other divinations to wonder about Destiny & Free Will; being convinced of the futility of what we suppose/perceive as 'Free Will' to 'change destiny' or 'go beyond destiny'!!......!

RishiRahul


Either the 'still ones' were 'Dumboes' or 'Very Enlightened'; couldn't have been in between, I guess.

And thus, if the 'still ones' knew about destiny & free will well, they were not much bothered about how it would affect them.

RishiRahul
 
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