Attitude Toward Astrology

Multiplicity

Active member
..and what of the time between death and this life as studied by the author of Many Lives, Many Masters: reiterated over time by so many referenced and trusted texts. I believe that my soul chose the path I walk. It (I) chose the challenges. Time has shown me that the nature of my struggles remain the same regardless of my location or the actions of others, like those of an alcoholic whether they are in las vegas, lancing, or lenoir. Whether or not I meet those challenges as intended is the freedom I have in this life. It is freedom within a predestined life and vice versa, yin and yang. A freedom towards the ultimate version of itself, liberation...
 
Last edited:

greybeard

Well-known member
We each have our beliefs.

I contemplated a raindrop and couldn't find the residence of the soul. We are not different from a raindrop. (I differentiate between "soul" and "spirit".)

We may or may not have a soul of the sort you postulate. Be that as it may, the only place and time we can act, can have any effect on our future, is Here and Now. That is all that matters. Whether you chose this life or did not is immaterial. You are here now and this is where the rubber meets the road. Carpe diem.

Could it be that we are born predestined to achieve, or not to achieve, liberation? I have a hunch liberation comes by the grace of God. In Ephesians 1: 4-6, Paul says that "he hath chosen us before the foundation of the world...." and continues, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to praise the good glory of his grace...."

In the Bhagavad Gita (2:55) it says, "When a man surrenders all desires that come to the heart and by the grace of God finds the joy of God, then his soul has indeed found peace."

In Romans 9:21, Paul says, "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

In nature there are vultures and vipers, cockroaches and cuckoos, lions and zebras.... Doesn't it seem logical that within human society, within our race, there are counterparts to these roles? I have yet to meet an Enlightened cockroach.

As the Gita says, "...the man lost in selfish delusion thinks that he himself is the actor." We may or may not have free will, our choices may or may not be freely taken. Really we can't know. And in the end it doesn't matter, because we have to play the game as if we had free will, as if our choices themselves are not predestined. Who knows?

What sort of person watches a movie called Frankenweenie?
 
Last edited:

!4C

Well-known member
I've had the benefit of observing my fraternal twin sisters (born almost 10 minutes apart). While there are some similarities, they've been different ever since I can remember. There was some conscious decision here because they did not want to be treated as twins. They wanted their own identity. Despite the divergence, both of their personalities fit into the natal chart. They both just went through their saturn return. One had it easy and the other has had a really rough time with many losses. Their chart shows that it was expected to be a challenge. I couldn't identify how one was embracing the saturn theme more than the other. It seems more like good/bad luck situation. So I looked at their marriage charts, husbands' charts and children's charts. The one that had the easy saturn return had family charts that were more supportive than afflicting, which was just the opposite for the other sister. So their choices of husbands over a decade ago seem to result in differing transit effects now.

This implies one natal chart can easily support more than one life path, and the environment and people we surround ourselves with will have an impact on our “fate” despite what our own charts indicate. Because of this, I've got general system theory (GST) on my study list.
 

!4C

Well-known member
However, I can understand why people would protest their charts and not wish to live in "joyful acceptance" of certain things. What if your chart shows that you're a criminal and/or psychopath? Or that you will live paycheck to paycheck, when you desire and have the talent to be a a Wall Street broker? Or your chart states that you'll have many struggles around relationships or making friends, when you desire both? Why do some people have such easy charts (and some of these people don't even deserve their charts, since they waste their good charts) while others have such difficult charts (and don't deserve such charts) despite making good life choices?

I'm one of those people who heavily protests her chart, because I have a very difficult chart. My chart states that having a child will be very difficult for me (Saturn retrograde in 5th House). Meanwhile, there are women out here irresponsibly pumping out child after child with multiple men. My chart also states that I'm resigned to a life of deep unhappiness (Saturn retrograde and peregrine is my chart ruler & drives my entire chart, Pluto square Ascendant, Jupiter opposition Saturn, Neptune square North Node) and persistent trouble in having/keeping friendships and romantic relationships (Venus retrograde opposite Saturn, Moon square Venus, Moon square Saturn, Saturn opposition Neptune). Why would anyone "joyfully accept" such a bad hand? Why do other people deserve happiness and peace (even when they treat people horribly), while others are fated to have lifelong torments? Just doesn't seem fair at all.
Yeah, I wonder the same thing. If you believe in reincarnation then you can at least accept that everyone takes their turn.

As far as having difficult aspects, sometimes we have an epiphany where we realize that we can interpreted our chart in a different way that points a solution to our problems. At least that is what happens to me from time to time. The problem is that charts a very vague and are subject to biased interpretation. I never stoop looking for another angle. Keep re-evaluating and hope that my different state of mind will discover something.
 

tautomer

Well-known member
Greybeard I am curious on what your thoughts of this will be:

Now I suspect this could be from lack of understanding on my end. Your and mine communication style is quite different and as such I often have to read your post several times to garner what you intend to be garnered. Either way, the way you speak of these things, it makes it sound like there is no room for growth in the individual, and they are completely and utterly stuck with what they have as is. I want to know if that is what you mean. If so, then that is a point where I have to completely disagree.

You've seen my chart before so I'm sure this will come as no surprise to you, but I am going to use myself as an example here. One of the most difficult things for me to do in life is to fuse and use a the same time, my mind (the rational logical world) and emotions (the irrational and imaginative world). There is a massive rift between them, and can only use one at a time. Most of the time, I prefer the mind because it's much more useful, safe, and predictable. Completely ignoring the emotion side of me (which is arguably quite a deal larger then my mind side), is a very bad thing for me to do though. After a while I "break" and have to pick up the pieces and put myself back together because I hit a limit with my mind and emotions being apart. Thus I am presented with a challenge: I either continue down the way I am with this, and continue to break which is not only painful, but a major hindrance in my life. Or, I work on addressing these issues I have, and attempt to get my mind and emotions to work together.

I am MUCH better in this regard then I was just a few years ago. I have come very far. I break far less often then I used to, and when I do, it has much more minor repercussions. I ultimately manage it way better. I do so by being more honest about my emotions, and give them a chance to work more often. No matter how irrational, I at least let myself feel them, and if they consume me for a while, so be it. I intrinsically know I will be safe, so by knowing this, I can allow myself to feel. I am slowly easing into using these both sides of me at the same time. Every now and then, I get fleeting moments where they work together, and they are so recharging and fulfilling.

Will I ever fuse my mind and emotions? Nope. It's impossible, I recognize that. This is who I am and I can't change that. However, I can work on this, and at times get them to work together. That way, I can experience joy (which is ever fleeting), and actually enjoy life. I'm not just making the best of what I have and who I am, I am making it better. Because I put in the effort to work on myself and my flaws.

Because of this, I am very much inclined to think that our chart does make us who we are, but we can certianly learn to work with what we have to the point that major issues of the past, can no longer severely ail us. They may still be there, but it's like looking at a childhood bully; spooky, but they can no longer harm you. Only if you let it. It's not just me either. I have friends I have seen trump major issues, and work past them. My mother is another example of someone who has made the best of a very difficult chart.

I await your thoughts.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Jupiter is a big old planet. Huge gravity field.

A few years back an unlucky comet was grabbed by Jupiter's gravity and crashed into the giant gas ball, never to be seen again. That just doesn't seem fair to me.

I met a little sardine swimming happily in the ocean one day. Suddenly a big barracuda darted out of the shadows and the sardine disappeared before I could say barracuda. That was so unfair.

I am getting up a petition to God demanding "Fairness and Equity in the Distribution of Destinies." Maybe if enough of us sign it we can get a hearing in the High Court. Until then I suppose we'll just have to get along with things the way they are.
 

tautomer

Well-known member
If you're going to speak in metaphor like that I am not going to learn a thing. It's largely hard for me to grasp, or at least pull away from what you intend. In particular from you because your style. If you want an "excuse", it's because I have aspergers.
 

gen6k

Well-known member
"There's a really big, weird reality going on outside that has nothing to do with what or how humans think."

people that believe in freewill are more radical than the current understanding of the paradigm.

there is room for freewill still. no category has to be or is absolute. robert hand thinks that there are 4 main divisions actually.

fate, necessity, providence, free will

its like potential degrees of manifestation.

now fate is determinism. necessity is something like an intact (potential) biological response, having to do something. providence is something more concrete in the mind for example falling in love and having it root in the mind and alter the mind. free will is basically the creative animorphism over the potentials. its the reversal of cause-and-effect on to the superconscious mind.

so what is weird about the recursion of creative abstraction and control is that it turns in to biological instinctual archetypes and eventually just vacuum type elusive mechanics. which means that there could be something beyond the body and behind the mechanics, somewhat of a super-archaic potentiality in certain forms, a self-recursive type of form that is like a warped puppet on a string of the situation.

its hard to piece all the world-views together in to a coherent whole. like from the biological perspective its just swift networks of processes and a cancer patient gets it exactly, the whole irrationality of the situation, but then the minister is just like its God. the cancer patient understands that also.

i like the whole karmic thing, its a type of logic that came out of the situation of this inherent paradox, its not too far from the mysticism of string theorists. maybe from a particular it is impossible to find out what the "real" meaning of a life is. even if there is a sense of being part of a bigger peice or a more coherent logic. i do agree in trying to go "uptrending" instead of "downtrending" within the chart. even the logic of karma and reincarnation is fragmentary within the verti-lateralness of deconstruction and construction. which is an ancient metaphysical duality that could be somewhere as a physical function...why does this karmic wheel create certain arbitrary lives even if they were this or that before.

well the perceptual inclusion of reading ones own chart as fate is that they do not know their fate around the corner of reading it its like a perceptual twist.

going back to the original quotation, we dont know the structure of anything past a certain point, so its hard to see if time is "linear" or a "circular" process or any shape for that matter.

i was thinking about the implications of geometrical planes. euclidean geometry is based on a completely flat dimension for example. a completely flat dimension is imaginary at least from our perspective, so the philosophical implications of building non-euclidean geometry is that we dont know the foundation of any geometry. what does the concept of no-flatness do to all our ideas on "linearity"?

the thing about free will is that "knowing something" is implying a certain order, if i say yes i know i have free will as a program, it contains several irreducibilities in whatever doctrine is being played as such. God gave us free will, but "he" knows everything.
 
Last edited:

greybeard

Well-known member
Of course there is room for growth.

When I say "accept yourself as you are" I mean accept the fact that your head and your gut seem to be disconnected. And by accept, I mean look at this situation as "ok" (for today). What you have basically indicated in this post is that you love your head and hate your gut (because you can't control it, predict it, etc).

From posts of yours I have read previously, I get the impression you fight with yourself a lot, and that you attempt to "improve yourself" by force of will.

When I was in my early 20s I got a job in construction. I had done very well in high school geometry and thought that I should apply all the glorious stuff I had learned to my new trade. I would try to figure out how to make things fit, how to build them, their dimensions and forms, with my high-falutin' geometry.

And then I discovered string. String is simple, direct, easy, quick and accurate. No fuss, no muss. And so my geometry book got dusty.

I think you are trying to geometrize your life when you could be using string.

When I was younger I wondered "why" this and "why" that? and psychoanalyzed myself, and cursed my fate and those lousy parents I got, and read books on philosophy and religion and psychology and..... trying to figure it all out. That is geometrizing.

String is where you meet a situation in this very moment, and observe both yourself and others (and the situation) very carefully, and then behave in a way (respond to the situation) that will lead you where you want to go. Behavior is the key. What do you DO in this moment? It does not take a strong will; it requires only a simple choice: "How do I want to act in this immediate circumstance? What sort of action will lead me where I want to go?" That's not hard to do (it takes a little practice and is clumsy at first) and does not require a lot of energy. And it is a very powerful and effective way to change ourselves. That is what my experience has taught me. I can only speak for myself.

Over the course of my life I have set different goals for myself, basically along the lines of "What do I want to be when I grow up?"

When I was 21 I decided I would become a millionaire by the age of 24. At age 22 I saw that my plan had little chance of success. So I changed my goal. I decided that instead of becoming a millionaire I would become a failure. And I have succeeded at that beyond my wildest dreams. I am a happy man.

My life has been rootless. I have never held a job, or lived in the same house, for over 2 years. My relationships have been disasters. I am an alcoholic. I have always lived in poverty, was "homeless" for a very long time. I carried a lot of anger for a very long time. Etc, etc....

And through all of that, wanting to better myself...I could not. No matter how much will I applied...nothing I tried worked any change. I had no power over myself.

Then one day I learned the power of surrender. I gave up. I said to my God, "God, I am trying to be a good boy, but can't. Guess you will just have to spank me. Do with me what you will." I gave up; I surrendered. I raised the white flag. I accepted myself as a failure.

When I turned 50 I sat down on a rock. I said to myself, "Self, you have messed up the first 50 years...What are you going to do with the rest of it?" Hmmm. Sitting on a rock is good for thinking. And then I found what I wanted. What I am going to do with the rest of my life is....Be kind to other people. That is actually what I decided. So I set about learning how to be kind. I wasn't all that successful at first, but with time I got a little better at it. Other people had been kind to me, and it made me feel good, and feel like life was good in spite of all the mean people. Just seemed like something good to do.

A few years back I had another little "sittin' on a rock" session with myself. I was looking for a new goal. It will probably be my last goal. And so...what I want to be when I grow up is Love. I don't want to be loving, or give love, or be loved....I want to become love itself, on two feet. It doesn't matter to me whether I reach the goal or not; but I want to go in that direction, get a little closer every day. Just seems like a good thing to do.

And the way I go about doing it is by watching how I behave in every little passing circumstance. And it works.

It's sort of like navigating a boat on the ocean. You notice you're a bit off course, so you just turn the wheel a little to port and get back on course again. Easy does it. When a storm blows up, just turn her head into the seas; you can get back on course when it blows over.

If you try to force yourself into some mold it will never work. Been there, done that. Surrender is a very powerful thing. If you surrender the war is over. Peace follows.

If you are at war with yourself there can be no peace. If you try to conquer yourself...conquest is achieved through war. Therefore, if you try to conquer yourself there can be no peace. Obviously, this is not the fruitful path. We must find another way. In the words of that old song, "Gonna lay down my sword and shield, down by the riverside...."

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." In every situation you encounter, put yourself in the other guy's shoes. Ask yourself, "If I were him/her, and he/she were me, how would I want them to treat me?" If you do that, and treat them that way, you can't go very far off the path. Pretty simple. And what you sow you reap. And that's a fact.

Instead of worrying about yourself so much, pay attention to how you treat others. Watch what happens when you do...pretty amazing.
 
Last edited:

greybeard

Well-known member
Good grief. Four something-or-anothers....Fate, providence....????

I get up in the morning. I eat. I wash my face. I hug my dogs. Maybe I go have coffee with a friend. I take care of my chores and errands. Etc.

Life is simple if we let it be.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
I am getting up a petition to God demanding "Fairness and Equity in the Distribution of Destinies." Maybe if enough of us sign it we can get a hearing in the High Court. Until then I suppose we'll just have to get along with things the way they are.


But what if there is no super human celestial influence and life IS just a matter of following and living as an organism through the natural laws of nature as best one can? From dust we came and to dust we shall return. That's it.

I feel saddened for you that you appear to have a life in which you have chosen to accept and live through a philosophy that must take life as it comes...as it is served to you.... and you must sit back and do nothing about it. A puppet on a string that can place blame upon other than its own (non) actions? Some might call it selfless ego, others humility, yet others hubris.

I am in total agreement with you that, as said elsewhere and from the astrological perspective, life appears to be 'fated' through the manner of progressions and directions occuring to the natal chart. Yet can there be no personal intervention through choices made and path taken? Metaphorically taking either a boat, train, plane, using Shank's pony, or all means of travel to reach a destination implied in the chart? Whatever choice is made produces its own effect, yet the ripples produced by a stone hitting water are wide and far-reaching in their manifestation. It's always maintained that the planetary functions are neutral in their action and do not compel. If there is no compulsion, there can be no fated one-way system in reaching the destination, can there?

I don't always find or have the right words to express what I mean (Mercury retro. in 9th?), yet agree with so much of what has been said by others.

Edit: I was writing during your life story post, Greyboard. You do seem contented with your lot.
Telephone rang, so earlier edit went wrong! (no smiley icon available).
 
Last edited:

Saturnian

Well-known member
Why shouldn't we? If everything is predetermined, you can't do anything about it anyway :lol:
You can always commit suicide.It's easy and free.All it takes is determination,wait no...hopelessness and you're on it.
If you don't believe you YOU can change your life as in improve it when it is depressing and unhappy then probably...you'd be considering suicide.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
You can always commit suicide.
Why?
It's easy and free.
Free? It's not free of consequences - every act has a consequence :smile:
All it takes is determination,wait no...hopelessness and you're on it.
If you don't believe you YOU can change your life as in improve it when it is depressing and unhappy then probably...you'd be considering suicide.
Not necessarily. Particularly if you consider the possibility of reincarnation
If you believe in reincarnation then you can at least accept that everyone takes their turn
 

chris10

Well-known member
Jupiter is a big old planet. Huge gravity field.

A few years back an unlucky comet was grabbed by Jupiter's gravity and crashed into the giant gas ball, never to be seen again. That just doesn't seem fair to me.

I met a little sardine swimming happily in the ocean one day. Suddenly a big barracuda darted out of the shadows and the sardine disappeared before I could say barracuda. That was so unfair.

I am getting up a petition to God demanding "Fairness and Equity in the Distribution of Destinies." Maybe if enough of us sign it we can get a hearing in the High Court. Until then I suppose we'll just have to get along with things the way they are.

I've contemplated on Fairness and Equity but I have never reached a conclusion as to why things are the way they are...
Why should a child born in Africa lack food and water while a child born elsewhere live in abundance?
greybeard
count me in for signing that petition...
 

chris10

Well-known member
You can always commit suicide.It's easy and free.All it takes is determination,wait no...hopelessness and you're on it.
If you don't believe you YOU can change your life as in improve it when it is depressing and unhappy then probably...you'd be considering suicide.

My friend's father committed suicide ... easy and free?
I don't think so...
Determination? well he succeeded!!!!
Well No, he didn't believe He could change his life,
He Couldn't change his life...
He had been unemployed for over 2 years, he had mortgage payments and he and his family were about to become Homeless...
(I started a thread on this, his suicide shows up in his daughter's Solar Return)
You know sometimes Circumstances can be too overwhelming, sometimes WE don't have the power to change our lives, we CAN try to make the best even under difficult circumstances but we are NOT God, we are not so powerful as we sometimes think we are.



I have checked this man's chart.
Too much Neptune all over the place, hard neptune aspects, weak Saturn.
I think a weak saturn shows that when faced with difficulties, he just couldn't cope.
 
Last edited:

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
You know sometimes Circumstances can be too overwhelming,
Not for everyone... others facing similar circumstances make very different choices :smile:
...sometimes WE don't have the power to change our lives,
On the contrary, the act of terminating one's current lifetime is an act that permanently changes a life - that's exercising power to 'change'
...we CAN try to make the best even under difficult circumstances but we are NOT God, we are not so powerful as we sometimes think we are...
Really? But apparently sufficiently powerful to carry out a decision to terminate a life though - thinking to 'escape' those 'difficult circumstances'...
 
Top