SunConjunctUranus
Well-known member
ds, how about your analysis for game 5? Would be great if you including 12/12.
Random Thoughts, strictly Text
- Thread starter david starling
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Dirius
Well-known member
It really doesn't. Aquarius qualities as described by authors have little to do with actual temperature, just a mention by Valens that they are cold in nature during that period in which the sign transits them. But then most of the descriptions are unchanged by changing hemispheres.
Ptolomy gives the Cancer and Leo to the Moon and Sun respectively because he places them as the most northern signs, matching them to the Luminaries:
- Cancer and Leo are the most northerly of all the twelve signs; they approach nearer than the other signs to the zenith of this part of the earth, and thereby cause warmth and heat: they are consequently appropriated as houses for the two principal and greater luminaries; Leo for the Sun, as being masculine; and Cancer for the Moon, as being feminine. It has hence resulted, that the semicircle from Leo to Capricorn has been ordained solar, and the semicircle from Aquarius to Cancer, lunar; in order that each planet might occupy one sign in each semicircle, and thus have one of its houses configurated with the Sun and the other with the Moon, conformably to the motions of its own sphere, and the peculiar properties of its nature.
The Sun placed in the northern most placed of the Ecliptic during the period right after the June solstice happens regardless of what hemisphere you are looking from. If during July-August (the Sun's regenecy) whether I'm standing in Buenos Aires (southern hemisphere) or New York City (northern hemisphere), she Sun is still tilted north in the ecliptic while transiting its regency period.
So ... it really changes nothing regarding the Sun rulership. Because the symbolical idea that the Sun is "higher" in the sky is still true from the southern hemisphere, thus making the Sun's rulership of Leo valid. Most of the attributes of the signs are related to its ruler, not the temperature of the period.
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Dirius
Well-known member
I understand that the reasons are troubling, but we have to understand that when one a city falls into chaos, all manner of crimes are committed, even those that have no logic. In my city, a week ago, some teenagers set a sleeping homeless man on fire. Don't try to understand criminals, you won't. They just are what they are, and should be persecuted and punished.
Dirius
Well-known member
It more related to the loss of christian values, of respect for your neighbors. Freedom, liberty and respect are the progeny of the christian tradition, which London has replaced for a mild form of atheism that serves no purpose for society.
SunConjunctUranus
Well-known member
Dirius and Ptolemy, imo you guys should discuss the zodiacal topic in other thread because the content of your discussions are too valuable. I did not think this is a good thread to discuss it. Many of those good post will be buried by lunatic random posts. It would be easier for lurkers to read and study it too. Therefore I advocating to open a new thread.
Freedom, liberty and respect are products of secularism, which had much to do with anti-clericalism/catholicism.
This is just laughable. It is our Capricorn and Aquarius that are nearest to your zenith and causing the greatest amount of warmth and heat. It then follows that they are houses of Sun and Moon for your hemisphere.
The houses, the elevations, the triangles (winds), and the terms that are based on them all have to be reversed based on Ptolemy's tabular exposition from Book I.
Here are Valens and Ptolemy's clear logic on exaltations:
''The so‑called exaltations of the planets have the following explanation. Since the sun, when he is in Aries, is making his transition to the northern and higher semicircle, and in Libra is passing into the southern and lower one, they have fittingly assigned Aries to him as his exaltation, since there the length of the day and the heating power of his nature begin to increase, and Libra as his depression for the opposite reasons.
Saturn again, in order to have a position opposite to sun, as also in the matter of their houses, took, contrariwise, Libra as his exaltation and Aries as his depression. For where heat increases there cold diminishes, and where the former diminishes cold on the contrary increases.'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#19
''Venus and Mars “depress” both luminaries because the sun has its exaltation in Aries and its depression in Libra, where it causes the day to become shorter. The moon has its exaltation in Taurus and its depression in Scorpio, where it causes the cosmic disappearance of light.'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
Now tell me when does the day become shorter in your country?
Here are Valens and Ptolemy's clear logic on exaltations:
''The so‑called exaltations of the planets have the following explanation. Since the sun, when he is in Aries, is making his transition to the northern and higher semicircle, and in Libra is passing into the southern and lower one, they have fittingly assigned Aries to him as his exaltation, since there the length of the day and the heating power of his nature begin to increase, and Libra as his depression for the opposite reasons.
Saturn again, in order to have a position opposite to sun, as also in the matter of their houses, took, contrariwise, Libra as his exaltation and Aries as his depression. For where heat increases there cold diminishes, and where the former diminishes cold on the contrary increases.'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#19
''Venus and Mars “depress” both luminaries because the sun has its exaltation in Aries and its depression in Libra, where it causes the day to become shorter. The moon has its exaltation in Taurus and its depression in Scorpio, where it causes the cosmic disappearance of light.'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
Now tell me when does the day become shorter in your country?
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The Sun is highest in the sky at the ''Cancer tropic'' for the Northern Hemisphere, and at the ''Capricorn tropic'' for the Southern Hemisphere. The idea behind the Sun ruling Leo instead of Cancer is that Leo is masculine and the solid form of the fire (hot and moderately dry) element which predominates the summery signs. And by the way, the Northern Hemisphere does actually get greater amount of heat in Leo because it takes time to cool off which indicates that the ancients were very observant of this.
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Dirius
Well-known member
Secularism means separation of state and church as an entity, not of tradition or values as a society, which were christian in every sense for every single nation that decided to establish a democratic order. I never mentioned catholicism, I said christianity.
When you only have a secular society, you do not have freedom, or respect, or liberty. Check out the atheist states of the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc. Every single nation were christianity has been the predominant religion, you find freedom. Not so much in atheism and other religions.
Dirius
Well-known member
Scrap what I said then. I had got it wrong. I admit my error in that area. But it still wouldn't explain why normal sign setup works in the southern hemisphere for regular chart reading.
And what do you suggest, sidereal instead? how do you rise above sidereal problems? Do you turn modalities to adjust them or keep them as they are?
david starling
Well-known member
Thousands of tropical astrologers in the Southern Hemisphere would agree there's no need to use a reverse zodiac--from experience.
Soviet Union and North Korea had/have state atheism thus banning and actively persecuting all religions.
I was referring to the fact that most Westernized countries do not have state religions - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Map_of_state_religions.svg
The Green countries are particular interesting cases for this topic, which is multifaceted. I wouldn't say religion (also which one of the thousands) breeds intolerance, but I don't feel the need to thank the priests for having goodness.
Religion played important role in history, and it probably has many evolutionary benefits. It is not very clever to claim that convergent evolution could not have led us to this point, in fact, I think in many ways it would have been a faster process (just think about the state of science in Hellenistic Antiquity compared to the Christian early-mid Middle Ages).
I appreciate your realization.
It is possible that they were wrong, but I don't see why.
It is possible that we were wrong, and that we can do better (unless you are 100% satisfied with your practice of course).
Actually, during the investigation of this area, I decided to switch back to tropical because of the obviousness of seasonal changes, and because I think they constitute a plausible causal mechanism for astrology. With that in mind, I think it is best for locations above the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn (23+N/S), it is best to use two mighty tropical zodiacs that have their elemental expressions of heat, moisture, dryness and cold so obvious to the senses (much more than the effect of sidereal considerations, and especially because I do not agree with the natural basis for constellations).
For the Equatorial zone, it is more natural to subtract some considerations of the zodiac proportionally the nearer the location is to the Equator, at which point there is should be no consideration of the zodiac, only of planets, aspects and angles, since there is imperceptible increase of daylight to the senses.
This does not seem peculiar to me, it is the same as with the arctic zones, the angles have less of an effect there until they become ineffective at the poles. Instead considerations of power are drawn from the planets and the zodiac exclusively at the north and south poles. There is more angularity from precession than from the houses.
Have you tried reversing a zodiac in a chart?
I do realize that most traditional practices are incompatible with this approach, mainly because they heavily rely on cusps and accidental rulership. However, a large portion of the Tetrabiblos, for example, does not at all need those. It is actually perfectly logical that multiple approaches follow based on the particular local astronomy. Having a single approach that sometimes draws upon a dissonant local astronomy seems to me, illogical.
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