The Prenatal Epoch

athan

Well-known member
I found the mansions but nothing yet on the male/female aspect :confused:


The Twenty-seven Constellations or Lunar Mansions

Name Position Location Ruler

Ashwini 1st 000d00' - 013d20' Ketu Dasra

Bharani 2nd 013d20' - 026d40' Venus Yama

Krittika 3rd 026d40' - 040d00' Sun Agni

Rohini 4th 040d00' - 053d20' Moon Bhrama

Mrigashira 5th 053d20' - 066d40' Mars Chandra

Ardra 6th 066d40' - 080d00' Rahu Rudra

Punarvasu 7th 080d00' - 093d20' Jupiter Aditi

Pushya 8th 093d20' - 106d40' Saturn Jeeva

Ashlesha 9th 106d40' - 120d00' Mercury Sarpa

Magha 10th 120d00' - 133d20' Ketu Pitar

Poorvaphalguni 11th 133d20' - 146d40' Venus Bhaga

Uttaraphalguni 12th 146d40' - 160d00' Sun Aryama

Hasta 13th 160d00' - 173d20' Moon Ravi

Chitra 14th 173d20' - 186d40' Mars Tvashta

Swati 15th 186d40' - 200d00' Rahu Vayu

Vishakha 16th 200d00' - 213d20' Jupiter Sakragni

Anuradha 17th 213d20' - 226d40' Saturn Mitra

Jyeshtha 18th 226d40' - 240d00' Mercury Shakra

Mula 19th 240d00' - 253d20' Ketu Niriti

Poorvashadha 20th 253d20 - 266d40' Venus Apa

Uttarashadha 21st 266d40' - 280d00' Sun Vishwadeva

Shravaha 22nd 280d00' - 293d20' Moon Govinda

Dhanishtha 23rd 293d20' - 306d40' Mars Vasu

Satabhisha 24th 306d40' - 320d00' Rahu Varuna

Poorvabhadrapada 25th 320d00' - 333d20' Jupiter Ajaikacharna

Uttarabhadrepada 26th 333d20' - 346d40' Saturn Ahirbudhya

Revti 27th 346d40' - 360d00' Mercury Pusha


ok.according to the above the moon in my conception chart is libra 29d03' that corresponds to the 16th mansion ruled by Jupiter. But is it male or female???
The ''quadrant'' part is easy.... The moon is in the second quadrant so it is male!
 

Talibr_sagi

Active member
Hi Arian & Athan!! Thank you for you help!!

I was sure about the above the horizon part, but I wasn't sure about the increasing or decreasing...
I was born before the full moon...so it must be increasing...but just to be on the right side, here's my natal chart:


If you need any additional data...please tell me so!

Thanks again guys!! :)
 

athan

Well-known member
yeap Talibr you are right.
Moon is above and increasing in light.
So in your case Laws no1&4 are applied just as in my case. Just follow Arian's steps in the post above and you'll get to the point that we are....trying to figure out the gender of the lunar mansions that is. Any insight about the topic is more than welcome and if you need any help just ask!
Athan
 
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Talibr_sagi

Active member
OK Athan thank you!
I have counted the distance between the Moon and the Ascendant...the number I came up is 142...divided by 13 gives us 10,9 which means 11 days....so 24 February 1977 plus 11 = 7 March 1977....

"The Ascendant at birth is the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, ant the Ascendant or its opposite point at Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth."

When I looked for the moon's position so as to be at the degrees of my ascendant - 4.8 of Libra - the ascendant of the epoch was in Capicorn...although the cusp of the 4th house was in Taurus but it's too early....only 3.24 while my natal moon is 12.51.

For the second one:
I checked up the ascendant to be in Taurus near the 12.51 degrees...the position of the moon was in 7.35 (Libra)....but that doesn't mean that the degrees of my ascendant are in 7.35 degrees right?
Because from what I understood both of conditions have to be applied.

If there's something else to try....I would be very interested to do so!! :)
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Awesome, athan! :cool:

Hopefully, we're on the right track here, because the article didn't mention anything about nakshatras or how they could be employed to determine if the Epoch chart is valid and meets all of the necessary qualifications, including indicating the sex of the native.

EDIT: This isn't fair; I received an error message when I tried to click on the link :(

Talibr_sagi,

When I looked for the moon's position so as to be at the degrees of my ascendant - 4.8 of Libra - the ascendant of the epoch was in Capicorn...although the cusp of the 4th house was in Taurus but it's too early....only 3.24 while my natal moon is 12.51.

For the second one:
I checked up the ascendant to be in Taurus near the 12.51 degrees...the position of the moon was in 7.35 (Libra)....but that doesn't mean that the degrees of my ascendant are in 7.35 degrees right?
Because from what I understood both of conditions have to be applied.

Did you just look at the noon chart for the conception day?

Sometimes this method requires a bit of fiddling around with; you probably saw in my previous post how I did not originally get a good match with athan's chart and had to look for the degree of the Ascendant at the Epoch first before looking at the degree of the Moon at the Epoch.

I don't know if this is what you're supposed to do, but it seemed to work! :p

Arian Maverick

P.S. If you don't feel comfortable posting your natal data here, perhaps can you send me a personal message? I'm trying to construct the Epoch chart, but I need to know the location you were born in order to do so. I'm having difficult imaging what the Epoch chart looks like...
 
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Talibr_sagi

Active member
So Arian this means that my ascendant's degrees are 7.35 and it's ok if only one of the above conditions apply? But then if the time we were born isn't correct....the position of our natal moon isn't accurate also...so how can it helps find out the correct ascendant :confused:?
I think I haven't fully understood what I have to do :(...anyway I'll experiment a bit with it.

Sorry, I haven't seen your PS...The location is Athens, Greece & time around 2:34 AM and it's a female chart...I didn't have the full chart handy at the time posting it...that's why it was without location and time...sorry for the omision!
 
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Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Are you certain that you have the correct day of the Epoch? It's really easy to make a mistake with the counting; did you use the calculator I linked to?

So Arian this means that my ascendant's degrees are 7.35 and it's ok if only one of the above conditions apply? But then if the time we were born isn't correct....the position of our natal moon isn't accurate also...so how can it helps find out the correct ascendant ?
I think I haven't fully understood what I have to do ...anyway I'll experiment a bit with it.

No, both of the conditions have to apply--but I believe that you can try one of two things to have both of the conditions apply; you can either set the Epoch chart so that the natal Ascendant equals the Epoch Moon degree, or you can set the Epoch chart so that the natal Moon degree equals the Epoch Ascendant.

I originally tried to the time in which the degree of the Moon at Epoch matched the degree of the Ascendant before looking for the time in which the Epoch Ascendant matched the degree of the natal Moon; this second approach gave me a result that more closely matched the positions of the Moon and Ascendant in athan's chart.

For example, athan's natal Moon is located at approximately 25 Cancer and his original Ascendant was located at 4 Scorpio 15. After I calculated the Epoch date, I attempted to find the time at which the Moon occupied 4 Scorpio 15, but the Ascendant yielded by this time was not 25 Cancer; I do not remember exactly what it was, but I believe it too was in Scorpio, which is a trine (120 degrees) away from Cancer.

I then tried the opposite approach and attempted to find the time at which the Epoch Ascendant was at 25 Cancer, the degree of athan's natal Moon; I then looked at the position of the Moon and saw that it was in late Libra, only about five degrees away from the natal Ascendant's position at 4 Scorpio 15.

So, using the information from the chart you provided us, you can either look for the time in which the Epoch Moon is at 4 Libra 08 and see if the Ascendant degree is around 12 Taurus 51, or you can look for the time in which the Epoch Ascendant is at 12 Taurus 51 and see if the Moon is around 4 Libra 08.

If neither of these work, it is likely that this may be an irregular Epoch chart, and unfortunately, the article doesn't explain well how to work with those...

Arian Maverick
 
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Talibr_sagi

Active member
Yes, I have used the calculator!
I have added my data in my previous post...because I didn't see your PS!

EDIT:
I must be loosing my mind...my birthday is on the 24th of November 1977...I just saw I haven't added it!
 
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Arian Maverick

Well-known member
I'm sorry about that--I have a bad habit of editing my posts perhaps half a dozen times before I'm satisfied, so it's very likely that I was editing while you were typing the information for your own post.

Arian Maverick
 

athan

Well-known member
Hi there Arian & Talibr.
sorry, yesterday I was trying to log in but I had problems with my computers connectivity....
OK. According to nakshastras both my epochal asc and moon are male so the second of the 4 Conditions is satisfied.
If I get it right I think that also the 1rst condition is ok...
CONDITION No1
It(the epoch chart) must confirm the time of birth within the limits of an ordinary observation.

''..within the limits of an ordinary observation'' could mean that there isn't let's say a huge distance between natal and prenatal asc? If that is the case then the difference between 4 scorpio(natal) and 29 libra(epoch) is indeed ordinary.
OK according to you guys what rule is implied with the 1rst condition?

cheers
 

Talibr_sagi

Active member
sorry, yesterday I was trying to log in but I had problems with my computers connectivity....
Same here Athan...mine hasn't been fixed yet...so I am using a back up connection which is extremely slow...I will try to come up when it's fixed cause this one is so slow!
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
EDIT: Please disregard what was previously written here; I believe I did all of the math correctly, but I had accidentally clicked on Modify the current calculation instead of New calculation with Thursday, February 24, 1977 as starting point, and thus, I ended up with a date that was after your birth!

I'm going to try this once more...

I applied the math to the (hopefully correct) conception date, and the Moon was placed at approximately 7 Libra 35, which indicates this should be your Ascendant. I find it a bit strange that your time of birth would be later rather earlier than the time recorded, especially by more than fifteen minutes...

I'm thinking that I don't like this rectification method much anymore :(

Arian Maverick
 
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Talibr_sagi

Active member
Arian,thank you for your help!

I find it a bit strange that your time of birth would be later rather earlier than the time recorded

I wondered why you found it strange. That's not the time recorded...I don't have an official document with birth time. That's the time my mother have told me for which she wasn't very certain...she has told me that it was between 2:34 and 2:50 AM...but she couldn't remember exactly when.
So for me it's not a surprise the time is later than the one I thought.

I experimented with this time span to find out where is my exact ascendant...and I kept 2:34 AM as more suitable since my natal chart for that time was more like me...but still I wasn't certain if it was the right one and I had a lot of doubts. If I was sure I wouldn't be trying to find the correct one.

In any case, with this method the 7.35 Libra ascendant is at 2:50 AM, so it has to be the right one for me.
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
I wondered why you found it strange. That's not the time recorded...I don't have an official document with birth time. That's the time my mother have told me for which she wasn't very certain...she has told me that it was between 2:34 and 2:50 AM...but she couldn't remember exactly when.
So for me it's not a surprise the time is later than the one I thought.

I experimented with this time span to find out where is my exact ascendant...and I kept 2:34 AM as more suitable since my natal chart for that time was more like me...but still I wasn't certain if it was the right one and I had a lot of doubts. If I was sure I wouldn't be trying to find the correct one.

In any case, with this method the 7.35 Libra ascendant is at 2:50 AM, so it has to be the right one for me.

Ah, that would explain it then! I had assumed that since you had a birth time that wasn't "right on the hour" or "right on the half-hour" that you had documentation or other verification of your birth time being 2:34 AM because people generally round to the nearest five minutes or even to the nearest ten or fifteen minutes.

I'd play around with other rectification methods as well and perhaps construct transit charts for the times of significant events to see if any planets were conjunct the angles or the other house cusps; you can also use less "scientific" methods such as looking up each of the Sabian symbols of the possible Ascendants for the range of time you have been given; remember to always round up to the nearest degree.

I don't know if this is coincidence or not, but like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had done a Prenatal Epoch for myself many months ago when I was trying to determine whether I had a late Pisces Ascendant or an early Aries Ascendant, and although I don't think I'll ever be 100% certain, the degree yielded by the Prenatal Epoch chart was about 28 Pisces 35, and this gives me a Sabian symbol that I particularly resonate with:

Pisces 29:
Light breaking into many colors as it passes through a prism.

This approximate degree was also yielded by an alternative method, so this is the Ascendant I'm keeping for now :)

How do you resonate with this symbol?

Libra 8:
A blazing fireplace in a deserted home.

Fortunately, Libra is a sign of slow ascension in the Northern Hemisphere, so even a relatively large range of time will not have too many degrees.

Here are the Sabian symbols for the other three possible degrees your Ascendant could be:

Libra 5:
A man teaching the true inner knowledge of the new world to his students.

Libra 6:
A man watches his ideals taking a concrete from before his inner vision.

Libra 7:
A woman feeding chickens and protecting them from the hawks.

I'd post the Sabian symbol for you possible Midheaven degree as well, but I fear I have already gone a bit off-topic...

Best of luck in determining your true Ascendant!

Arian Maverick
 

Talibr_sagi

Active member
Hi Arian!
Thanks for posting the sabian symbols of my ascendant! My first reaction was the sabian symbol for Libra 5...but perhaps I am biased because of my Sagittarius sun hehe!

I'd post the Sabian symbol for you possible Midheaven degree as well, but I fear I have already gone a bit off-topic...
Don't worry, I have looked them myself in the link you've posted!

Thanks again for your help :) !!!
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Thanks for posting the sabian symbols of my ascendant! My first reaction was the sabian symbol for Libra 5...but perhaps I am biased because of my Sagittarius sun hehe!

Perhaps it is possible that your original time was correct after all--I believe this is the Sabian symbol that is associated with the 2:34 AM time of birth.

I'd say take the time yielded by this Prenatal Epoch chart with a grain of salt because other rectification methods may yield slightly different results.

The only bad thing about the Sabian symbols is that it's fairly simple to become biased towards the degree you like the best and become blind to other possibilities.

This may be because sometimes the symbols manifest through other people, although somehow I doubt the symbol of the Ascendant would do that since it's such a personal point.

Perhaps I should create another thread about the Animodar Method of Rectification; it's always fun to give another method a go and compare the results :)

Arian Maverick
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Wow, you do look like the Sagittarius man in this picture; the eyebrow shape is even the same! :eek:

I have been having difficulties with the Trutine method which did not seem to work out for me.

However I have just read a recent post by new member Sheila on the 'Your rising signs and your mother's Moon' thread, where she says

Look at the position of the Moon on the conception date because this will be located on or around, either the potential ascendant or descendant.
and this makes all the difference because then the trutine does work if I am using it to find the DC rather than AC.

Not only that but it fits in with the Animodar method too, where the planet with the most essential dignity at the first new or full Moon just preceeding my birth happens to be at 29 degrees.

I'll have to read the article about the Tritune of Hermes to refresh myself with the process, but if I remember correctly, you use it to find the Ascendant or the Descendant depending upon whether the Moon is increasing/decreasing in light and whether it is above or below the horizon.

Here are the Four Laws of the Epoch from the Prenatal Epoch site:

Four Laws of the Epoch

1. When the Moon at birth increases in light, it will be on the ascending degree of Epoch, and the Moon at Epoch will be on the ascending degree at birth.

2. When the Moon at birth decrease in light, it will be on the decreasing degree at Epoch, and the Moon at Epoch will be on the descending degree at birth.

3. When the Moon at birth is (a) increasing in light and below the horizon, or (b) decreasing in light and above the horizon, the period of gestation is longer than the norm.

4. When the Moon at birth is (a) increasing in light and above the horizon or (b) decreasing in light and below the horizon, the period of gestation is shorter than the norm.

Can you post your natal data here so I can determine which of these criteria your Moon meets? Then we will be able to proceed ;)

Not only that but it fits in with the Animodar method too, where the planet with the most essential dignity at the first new or full Moon just preceeding my birth happens to be at 29 degrees.

Was this planet closer to the Ascendant or the Midheaven of the syzergy chart? I ask because this determines whether you modify your natal Ascendant or Midheaven to this degree.

Arian Maverick

P.S. I don't know if the results of the Animodar Method of Rectification and the Tritune of Hermes always coincide, although they should in theory. However, I have done both rectification methods for my own chart and received similar results, although one method gave me an early Aries Ascendant while the other gave me a late Pisces Ascendant. At least I knew I was in the right ballpark, though.
 
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Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Your natal Moon could make this rectification somewhat difficult, since it would be tightly conjunct your Descendant if you have a late Sagittarius Ascendant. For now, I'm going to try the 4:15 PM chart and see what result it yields.

As you've mentioned, the Moon was decreasing in light and below the horizon, so these two laws will apply:

2. When the Moon at birth decrease in light, it will be on the decreasing degree at Epoch, and the Moon at Epoch will be on the descending degree at birth.

4. When the Moon at birth is (a) increasing in light and above the horizon or (b) decreasing in light and below the horizon, the period of gestation is shorter than the norm.

This is Order 4; therefore, we will use the formula 273 days minus x.

It is to be understood that the 273 days referred to in the above table is the normal period of gestation, or nine solar or ten lunar months. This normal period is increased or decreased in accordance with the distance of the Moon from either the Ascendant or Descendant, and "x" is a certain number of days corresponding to this distance obtained by dividing the distance in degrees by thirteen degrees, the latter being the average daily motion of the Moon.

When making the count, count to the Ascendant (AC) when the Moon is increasing in light, and to the Descendant (DC) when the Moon is decreasing in light. Another more definite way of stating this would be: In orders Nos. 1 and 4 the distance in degrees of the Moon from the horizon last crossed (AC or DC), divided by thirteen, gives "x", or the number of days by which this period is decreased; and in orders Nos. 2 and 3 the distance of the Moon in degrees from the horizon which it is approaching, divided by thirteen, gives the number of days by which this period is increased.

As the directions indicate, now we want to count the number of degrees from the Moon to the Descendant; according to the time of birth your mother gave you, this is about 9 degrees, 20 minutes or 9 1/3 degrees

273 - 9 1/3 = 263 2/3 days

According to Date calculator: Add to or subtract from a date, 263 days, 16 hours subtracted from your date of birth yields a date and time of Thursday, December 24, 1959 at 8:00:00 AM.

If we want to get fancier and use your time of birth in this calculation, we receive a date and time of Friday, December 25, 1959 at 12:15:00 AM.

Now, let us go back to the second law of the Epoch:

2. When the Moon at birth decrease in light, it will be on the decreasing degree at Epoch, and the Moon at Epoch will be on the descending degree at birth.

The 8 AM time gives us 29 degrees on the Descendant, which is pretty darn close to the degree of your natal Moon; therefore, I'm not going to get fancy here and use the second calculation unless the first one doesn't work.

I will now adjust the Ascendant degree slightly to the exact degree of your natal Moon and see what happens. It's often impossible to get an exact match, so the closest I could get was 7: 58 :01 AM when the Descendant was at 28 Gemini 33'4"--only two arcminutes more than the degree of your natal Moon.

Unfortunately, this didn't quite work out; according to this chart, your Ascendant should be Aries, which isn't right at all.

So I suppose I'll have to try the "fancy" chart this time and see if it yields a more plausible result.

This didn't work either, so I suppose it's back to the drawing board :(

What we're looking for is an Epoch chart with Gemini on the Descendant and a Cancer Moon.

Arian Maverick
 
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