Missing kid

Lena_

Well-known member
First of all, thanks for all your info, Lena, and for having the patience to answer each of my questions. As to this, question, the sister is attractive too :smile:

Thank you for the feedback, Mossadrai.
And, Anytime! -It was my pleasure.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Lena, with respect to your question to me,

I personally have a slight problem with using event charts to explain very much. This seriously started when I began looking at natural disaster charts, like the one for the earthquake in Haiti in 2012. It occurred to me that almost the identical chart would pertain to the adjacent Dominican Republic (sharing the same island) and even portions of Haiti. Yet these areas were not hit. The chart angles might very slightly for nearby Caribbean islands (or southern Florida) but most of the planetary positions would be identical regardless of whether the earthquake hit them or not.

Probably with disaster charts there is more to get to, like planetary lines; but the relevance for this thread is that all of those thousands of victims would have had dramatically different nativities, yet so many of them died almost simultaneously, or within days of one another. The basic arithmetic of mortality in reading event charts just did not compute.

So if we move the missing child problem to a plain old event chart, we have to realize that it is equally a chart of everything else going on in the boy's entire region. He went missing, but did anyone else?

We can't look at transits or progressions to the boy's nativity, because his birth data aren't known. This isn't a horary question and chart, so basically there is no way to personalize this particular event chart.

Heaven knows that horary has its problems, but at least horary targets a particular question.

Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, above. No, I wouldn't use a simple event chart as a horary chart unless, obviously, the question were asked at the time of the event. Then you basically have a horary chart. You have to then decide which house represents the missing child depending upon his relation to the querent (if any), turn the chart, and so on.

In horary, there are some rules about discerning the querent's intentions. In event-chart reading, I think we have to consider the chart in its context, or look "outside the chart."

Lena, I have great respect for your horary reading! Probably you know all of the above and I just didn't explain myself adequately in my initial post.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Just a bit more on event charts generally. See:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/event-astrology.php
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/first-meeting-chart.php

We've all heard of "first meeting" charts for a romantic relationship, which seems to be their most common usage. There are people who swear by them, essentially taking them as a nativity of a particular event. (Cf. also electional and mundane astrology event charts.)

These have been used like nativities, such that major events in the relationship would be tracked through transits and progressions.

Also, horary astrologers will often cast a meeting chart or a phone call chart for the time when the client makes an appointment or prepares to ask the question. Supposedly it sheds further light on what is really going on in the client's mind (or in the ozone, I suppose) at that time. These event charts are also often compared with the nativity.

But these event charts generally purport to show something about the quality of a moment in time. I think this is different than using them as a sort of substitute horary in connection with a question, which in this case seems to be "what has happened to the missing boy?"

A big question, for me, in an event chart, is what makes it radical.
 
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Lena_

Well-known member
Lena, with respect to your question to me,

I personally have a slight problem with using event charts to explain very much. This seriously started when I began looking at natural disaster charts, like the one for the earthquake in Haiti in 2012. It occurred to me that almost the identical chart would pertain to the adjacent Dominican Republic (sharing the same island) and even portions of Haiti. Yet these areas were not hit. The chart angles might very slightly for nearby Caribbean islands (or southern Florida) but most of the planetary positions would be identical regardless of whether the earthquake hit them or not.

Probably with disaster charts there is more to get to, like planetary lines; but the relevance for this thread is that all of those thousands of victims would have had dramatically different nativities, yet so many of them died almost simultaneously, or within days of one another. The basic arithmetic of mortality in reading event charts just did not compute.

So if we move the missing child problem to a plain old event chart, we have to realize that it is equally a chart of everything else going on in the boy's entire region. He went missing, but did anyone else?

We can't look at transits or progressions to the boy's nativity, because his birth data aren't known. This isn't a horary question and chart, so basically there is no way to personalize this particular event chart.

Heaven knows that horary has its problems, but at least horary targets a particular question.

Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, above. No, I wouldn't use a simple event chart as a horary chart unless, obviously, the question were asked at the time of the event. Then you basically have a horary chart. You have to then decide which house represents the missing child depending upon his relation to the querent (if any), and so on.

In horary, there are some rules about discerning the querent's intentions. In event-chart reading, I think we have to consider the chart in its context, or look "outside the chart."

Lena, I have great respect for your horary reading! Probably you know all of the above and I just didn't explain myself adequately in my initial post.

A*C*G has a lot to say in transits as I see it. There are the transiting Cusps which also have a saying onto the effect of the manifestation. Yet I never stumbled upon an astrologer commenting, say, on the decan of the, say, 8th Cusp of a catastrofic Event that took place or on which planetary Hour it was.. Yes, the natal is important to an event chart but event charts aren't helpless all together. Neighborn towns have different angles/cusps -even if just by few degrees or seconds. Many times those seconds can be crusial as they swing into another planetary hour.

What I found interesting was the timing the OP chose for the chart. Even unknowingly, the first chart due to Moon quincunxing the AC is a bullseye.

It could be anytime in the time-span that was suggested.. This, is personal interferrance in a way. The same "personal" touch we seek in a horary chart.

I would follow as easily if the time was upon the announcement for it would mean much for the family or the professionals who do have a personal connection to the matter.

Bottoms line, imo, Horary Timing isn't really much onto *current* rather onto *choice*.. And I didn't see anything in this chart as a restriction against analysing, especially with PoF in 8th.

You always had a way to electrocute my scattered thoughts channeling them towards conclusions; even if untold...

Thanks Way,

Lena
 

mossadrai

Well-known member
Mossadrai, I believe that I have located you on the Internet, as I mentioned to you on your other recent thread. To the extent that there is a "personal" dimension in my posts to you, you will see it there. I don't know if you are a "spiritual" member of your faith, let alone an observant one; but if so, you will see my ethical arguments there.

Thanks for explaining, Waybread. I don't know why I was feeling some kind of animosity from you towards me, but your words are cristal clear. Thanks for that.

However, I didn't understand this part of your message. Where have you found me? Have you sent me a message about anything? Because I'm afraid I didn't get it, and I would like to answer, as I always do. I am a kabbalist, then I guess you could call me a "spiritual" member of my faith. But I still don't get the meaning, if you tried to contact me or what. If you can shed further light I will be very greateful!

Best Regards!
 

Lena_

Well-known member
Just a bit more on event charts generally. See:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/event-astrology.php
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/first-meeting-chart.php

We've all heard of "first meeting" charts for a romantic relationship, which seems to be their most common usage. There are people who swear by them, essentially taking them as a nativity of a particular event. (Cf. also electional and mundane astrology event charts.)

These have been used like nativities, such that major events in the relationship would be tracked through transits and progressions.

Also, horary astrologers will often cast a meeting chart or a phone call chart for the time when the client makes an appointment or prepares to ask the question. Supposedly it sheds further light on what is really going on in the client's mind (or in the ozone, I suppose) at that time. These event charts are also often compared with the nativity.

But these event charts generally purport to show something about the quality of a moment in time. I think this is different than using them as a sort of substitute horary in connection with a question, which in this case seems to be "what has happened to the missing boy?"

A big question, for me, in an event chart, is what makes it radical.

I'm not into history or authors -probably something mr.Z or Paul are good at- but how I see it, if the chart supports the story/matter, if you can "see" the story being verified, is valid -whatever *valid* may mean.
I don't know how a "scheduled* timing would work unless it had something to do with the clarity of the astrologer and own natal.

The quality of the time indeed is crucial. Maybe this is why the focus is mainly onto the question itself and how it has been phrased.
Phrasing is choice from behalf of the client, no matter what, and that connects to the moment, relating to natal and transits.

This is why, imo, the Angles and Moon are/were most important in Horaries; for their sensitivity time-wise. The chart would be outcasted if the AC wasn't providing *radicality* and PoF is directly related to the moment...
 

waybread

Well-known member
Lena wrote,
You always had a way to electrocute my scattered thoughts channeling them towards conclusions; even if untold...

Gosh, Lena-- I hope this is good :surprised:. I believe that English is not your first language: "electrocute" means to kill something or someone with a big surge of electricity!

Mossadrai, I simply clicked on the link to your website and googled "mossadrai." I did not attempt to make personal contact. No personal animosity-- we are complete strangers on an Internet forum, after all; but as you have seen, I am concerned about the topic.

[deleted off-topic comment - Moderator]
 
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poyi

Premium Member
Lena made some very interesting points from the event chart. But I failed to see a direct connection of there is anther person who abducted the boy, as I failed to see direct connection between Taurus cusp with Venus in Libra connecting to Mars as ruler of the case. Unless abandoned the transitional ruler and used Pluto. I normally use both modern and traditional and they always give me consistent result as confirming each other but not in this one so I picked the traditional over modern. With the clear mutual reception I see that more as accident. We could dig into fixed stars they are a lot clearer.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
... but can I ask only one more question: how would you analyze if this is a case of kidnap or accident, independently of the outcome?

I would use the relative strengths of the dispositors of:
-the Part of Captivity (for abduction possibility) = ascendant + lord of saturn's sign placement - saturn
vs
-the Part of Accidents = ascendant + saturn - mars

...to estimate which might more likely have occured.

In the reference chart the Part of Captivity falls @ 7 Leo, in the 10th whole sign house, disposited by the Sun; the Part of Accidents falls @ 25 Aquarius in the 4th whole sign house, disposited by Saturn: both Parts are strong by angularity; however, with dispositor of the Part of Accidents, Saturn, being posited in the 1st house, and conjunct the NN/SN axis ("fate axis"), while the Sun being in the 11th house (house of gains, hopes, wishes, the "Good Spirit", etc) I lean toward Saturn being more importantly indicated here than the Sun, and so I lean toward Accident (rather than abduction) as a potentially more likely indication of what occured...
 

mossadrai

Well-known member
Lena made some very interesting points from the event chart. But I failed to see a direct connection of there is anther person who abducted the boy, as I failed to see direct connection between Taurus cusp with Venus in Libra connecting to Mars as ruler of the case. Unless abandoned the transitional ruler and used Pluto. I normally use both modern and traditional and they always give me consistent result as confirming each other but not in this one so I picked the traditional over modern. With the clear mutual reception I see that more as accident. We could dig into fixed stars they are a lot clearer.

I totally agree with you. Lena brought up a lot of interesting info from the chart. I am open to the possibility of a kidnap, but I can't dismiss the accident/drowning theory either. Actually, as you say, poyi, even considering the kidnap hypothesis, I am still more inclined to think of the matter as an accident.

Maybe Lena can tell us why she thinks this is a kidnap beside the (astonishing) analysis that Mercury-Lungs and the Air Signs are dignified?

Also following your suggestion, poyi, here is the chart of the event with some fixed star. Like Dr. Farr already noticed, the ascendant is conjunct to Zuben Elgenubi and Zuben Elshcemali. From what I know, Scheat is the star to look for in cases of drowning. It is not in the list, but Scheat is 29º22' of Pisces (water sign), therefore in the 5th house and in a trine with Mars if I am not wrong.

Close to the Moon we have only Alpheratz (irrelevant, since it yields Energetic, persevering, honor, wealth, many good friends and business success) and close to Mars we have Procyon, which according to Robson, when aspected with Mars means "Cruelty, violence, scandal and slander, disgrace and ruin, danger of dog bites", which may be Lena's line (except if the kidnap was "pacific").

Thoughts?
 

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dr. farr

Well-known member
Regarding the ascending degree connection with the South Scale*, Ebertin mentions as one of the several potential influences of this star:"...indication of danger coming about in connection with water..."


*zuben elgenubi
 

poyi

Premium Member
I totally agree with you. Lena brought up a lot of interesting info from the chart. I am open to the possibility of a kidnap, but I can't dismiss the accident/drowning theory either. Actually, as you say, poyi, even considering the kidnap hypothesis, I am still more inclined to think of the matter as an accident.

Maybe Lena can tell us why she thinks this is a kidnap beside the (astonishing) analysis that Mercury-Lungs and the Air Signs are dignified?

Also following your suggestion, poyi, here is the chart of the event with some fixed star. Like Dr. Farr already noticed, the ascendant is conjunct to Zuben Elgenubi and Zuben Elshcemali. From what I know, Scheat is the star to look for in cases of drowning. It is not in the list, but Scheat is 29º22' of Pisces (water sign), therefore in the 5th house and in a trine with Mars if I am not wrong.

Close to the Moon we have only Alpheratz (irrelevant, since it yields Energetic, persevering, honor, wealth, many good friends and business success) and close to Mars we have Procyon, which according to Robson, when aspected with Mars means "Cruelty, violence, scandal and slander, disgrace and ruin, danger of dog bites", which may be Lena's line (except if the kidnap was "pacific").

Thoughts?

This is very interesting. Fixed stars never disappointed me. It literally described the condition of the boy in a wealthy family playing with friends with the mix of danger....I can actually so visualize the boy playing. Fixed stars are truly impressive. Thank God that we have Robson.:lol:
 

mossadrai

Well-known member
Impressive.

So there is a strong basis to think about the accident and drowning hypothesis. I loved to know about the Captivity and Accidents parts. I'll add them to my Solar Fire (by the way, every time I try to use the "Arabic Parts Editor" the software freezes and I can't add what I want. Anyone already experienced that before?)

As you said, poyi, fixed stars are really impressive.

But, Lena, the question is there yet... Do you see more indications supporting a kidnap?
 

Lena_

Well-known member
Gosh, Lena-- I hope this is good :surprised:. I believe that English is not your first language: "electrocute" means to kill something or someone with a big surge of electricity!

Erm... lol
It was good and you're right to believe so; my English IS lousy.
Electrocute in Greek has the same meaning to 'attack' with electricity..

@Poyi
I use Pluto for Scorpio and Mars as a co-ruler. But I like to use planets simultaneously as multiple significators..
Pluto in MR with Saturn in 12th -in own Joy.
Mars in MR with Moon in 6th, in Mars' Joy.
Again, double indications which are good positions regarding health.

eta
-------
Since I've focused more in the condition of the 'body' I wonder if being saved from an accident could verify both options. I still don't think there is anything lethal in the chart.
---------


@Mossadrai
Actually I think the target was originally the sibling, the older sister -this is why I asked about her looks. After time passes, MC quincunxes the 3rd cusp and Pluto and L3. That is a long shot but maybe something happened and the kid was picked instead, accidentally.. I've troubled a lot with that as I can't imagine how that could work and it is the thing with the odd "bond" between the kids too. Maybe an older child could give more resistance? Were they wearing the same clothes or something? If they are close in age, could someone easily mix them up? The sister being an original target might just mean that a girl, or, a pretty girl was on schedule. Is the kid missing, a boy?

If you're into Sabians, check them. I don't use them but I do keep notes for future study.. This is what I've kept in my files:
AC: WOMAN, FECUNDATED BY HER SPIRIT, IS "GREAT WITH CHILD
Saturn: DIVERS OF THE DEEP SEA ARE BEING LOWERED INTO THE WATERS
N.Node: A DROWNING MAN IS RESCUED, BROUGHT BACK TO THE CROWD (yes, that did make me chuckle)
Moon: AN EMPTY HAMMOCK IS HANGING BETWEEN TWO LOVELY TREES
Venus: A CANOE LEAVING NARROW RAPIDS REACHES CALM WATERS (this is why I found "Netherlands" more interesting than if you'd mention, say, Texas)

This gave more ideas on the circumstances..
I wonder if dr.Farr could comment on what could come first if we were in a hypothesis that both an accident and captivity occurred.. Which would come first in time?

In Placidus, there aren't any intercepted Houses, so this makes me think that everything went unbiased. There is nothing tranquil in a Grand Square but I don't see *violence* or anything *brutal* in the chart. At worst, Uranus opposes Venus yet she is in Mars' detriment thus, not a violent person/factor. Most possibly, Venus got lucky.. There isn't a coincidence that Venus=Jupiter/Pluto=Uranus. These midpoints are supposed to promise life-changing events.

I'm Very tempted to think that the child has "changed hands", like whomever took the kid isn't the one keeping it.
Venus/Pluto is particularly about money and maybe this is why the kid is important to Jupiter..
I'll have to check and get back at this.

I haven't dealt with fixed stars yet. The combinations planets/aspects/degrees/dignities/cusps I use, provide way too many info for me to handle and I couldn't take on stars yet and I don't know if I'll ever be.

FWIW, I wouldn't comment if I saw death in this chart. It is useless done in a public forum where someone could pick just a line from a reading and make assumptions..

Lena
 
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poyi

Premium Member
In the case of using Pluto as the main significator instead of Mars. I am a bit reluctant without the reference of structural dignity table sited for Pluto other than the potential on ruling Scorpio. I tend to use Pluto as co ruler due to lack of extensive studies on the full effect of Pluto across all zodiac signs since discovery. But I do use Scorpio to confirm and see different angles of matters.

So if we use Pluto Rx in Capricorn placed in 3rd house>Saturn in Scorpio in it Term in mutual reception placed in 12th house as his Joy if you used Placidus but the original practice that is 1st house not 12th as they used whole sign from my memories.

We can see the link of sibling and disappearance are related but that could also be meaning the child disappeared from his local community, of his familiar surrounding. We can't be sure how Pluto can fit into the dignity table to confirm rather the body is in danger or not. In whole sign Saturn and Node node are both in 1st house that actually suggesting Self Inflicted Event while equally possible the Sibling causing the issues as in mutual reception as you suggesting.

To be more precise, Gemini 8th house and 8th sign is ruled by Mercury in the 10th house and 11th sign, and Sun combusted Mercury severely 19 seconds not Cazimi but a rather completed burnt. Sun combusted his own final dispositor, Sun ruling the MC, I see that as a very likelihood of death, as minimal the major public concern over the worse potential outcome of this child.

Part of Fortune in a usual natal and medical chart, we use POF as the physical body, the wellbeing of the body, POF in Cancer, then we can see the mutual affliction of Mars and Moon placed in Placidus 8th while in whole sign 9th house. The down side is the accuracy of POF highly varied based on the accuracy of timing.

So far, I have not found sensitive points of Antiscion or contra antisicion points.

I would like to suggest mossadrai to check parallel and contra parallel aspects.
 

Lena_

Well-known member
Way, these are some thoughts as an example on picking 5th from 9th in secondborn children:

In general I think however you get to examine a chart, it's going to give the same results..

For the parents, IF the older sister is the first born, she is signified by 4ths' 5th, being 8th Gemini. You could either stop there and check the combust/cazimi phase or, try it a bit further and check the 3rd from 8th for the missing kid, IF this is the secondborn.

Because of not knowing the time of births or the difference in ages, I'll give that as an example.

Under this hypothesis (missing kid being the second born), via this other approach, the kid is Leo, Sun, in 11th. Sun/Mercury conjuncting thus being together, exposed in public. Sun hides Mercury and Mercury, even burnt, is too close to being protected by Sun. That, along with PoF being in 8th of sister, could also imply the sister getting lucky and "protected" by the younger sibling..

Coincidentaly enough, Sun is strong own face, in Jupiters' detriment and Venus' fall..
Actually Sun is in mutual fall with Venus -something I'd like to ponder on if there could be a verification on birth order..

So, IF the hypothesis of the birth times is correct, this other option to work on the chart concludes at the same, in a second fold (I usually do a threefold in horaries).

Lacking data is why I initially didn't elaborate on this, on the other hand is a good example on how I personally work on charts. I know it is a long shot yet the coincidences are too many.. And I don't believe in coincidences

Lena,
[/ranting]
 
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Lena_

Well-known member
To be more precise, Gemini 8th house and 8th sign is ruled by Mercury in the 10th house and 11th sign, and Sun combusted Mercury severely 19 seconds not Cazimi but a rather completed burnt.

If I understood correctly, you examine the chart as a static, horary one?

Sun combusted his own final dispositor, Sun ruling the MC, I see that as a very likelihood of death, as minimal the major public concern over the worse potential outcome of this child.

I'm a bit embarrassed to admit but, I didn't know Sun could be concidered combust! Tbh, I actually thought the "burning" procedure was from the Suns' own light.. Is it due to disposition only or are other factors as well?
 

poyi

Premium Member
No no I am saying Sun in Virgo combusted his own final dispositor Mercury in Virgo is a very unfortunate situation. I have seen a few times in natal chart severe issues regarding to the whatever the mercury and sun signify in the chart. In a female natal chart of one of the member's mother. She has sever alcoholism and I chased it back to her father who was a serious alcoholic he was so drunk from drinking and died from falling into fire and was burnt died. This psyche was already as a blueprint written in this woman chart and later she has mental health issues and also suffered from severe drinking problem. In her case the mercury is even retrograde moving toward to the sun to be burnt.
 
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Lena_

Well-known member
No no I am saying Sun in Virgo combusted his own final dispositor Mercury in Virgo is a very unfortunate situation. I have seen a few times in natal chart severe issues regarding to the whatever the mercury and sun signify in the chart. In a female natal chart of one of the member's mother. She has sever alcoholism and I chased it back to her father who was a serious alcoholic he was so drunk from drinking and died from falling into fired and burnt died. This psyche was already as a blueprint writing in this woman chart and later she has mental health issues and also suffered from sever drink problem. In her case the mercury is even retrograde moving toward to the sun to be burnt.

Oh! I understand now..
In identical Horary charts under different questions I find the charts to give totaly different meanings. I guess different ways work for different people :)
 
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