Human existence: the gender of God

waybread said:

David, this is not only incorrect, but actually offensive to many of the faithful.

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Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.” - Is. 56

Really, waybread? Are you saying He will surely separate us from your people?

david starling said:

Wait....who are the faithful who might find this wider definition of "Jewish" offensive?

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Perhaps many such as myself. Not totally offensive to me personally, but I don't agree at all with this premise stated. There are Coptic Christians the 1=2% minority peoples in Egypt for example, who were actually the first Christians.



They are also the same people who hold access to the tremendous scroll find at Nag Hammadi in the 40s. They have a museum in what is called "Coptic Cairo" as well as churches and a thriving community there and elsewhere in the country.



"Coptic Christians are the Christians that are living in Egypt. They came into existence after the ascension of Jesus Christ at around 42 CE. Saint Mark who was the writer of the gospel of Mark first introduced Christianity in Egypt"
(Actually, they are the original modern Egyptians in that country.)
.History Of The Coptic Christians - WorldAtlas.com


www.worldatlas.com/articles/history-of-the-coptic-christians.html

david starling said:

"Abrahamic" is used to label all three--Rabinical, Christian, and Moslem.
That doesn't seem to offend anyone.

Was Abraham "Jewish"?

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No, he was from the land of Ur:

https://www.jesus-resurrection.info/abraham-jew.htmlhttps://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZTSB&pc=MOZI&q=was+abraham+a+jew?#
Abraham himself was not Jewish (or Israelite) but, it would seem, Chaldean:


"And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there."

Ref:

The earliest known versions of the NT are in Greek, not Hebrew.

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My understanding is it was Aramaic , the language of Jesus and his parents and most of his friends (disciples)



From Aramaic to Greek, to Latin ...
(See Gnostic Gospels online)



The Christian writers of the first period mention the existence of the Gospel called "Logia", which means words, written in Hebrew-Aramaic. In addition, some Western scientists who started to research the Gospels beginning from the eighteenth century state that there was one single Gospel before the current four Gospels emerged and that the current Gospels were written based on that Gospel.
Lessing, one of those researchers, stated in the thesis he put forward at the end of the eighteenth century that there was an original Gospel before the four Gospels, that its language was Aramaic and that Matthew, Mark and Luke made use of it when they wrote their Gospels.

leomoon said:

Ref:
My understanding is it was Aramaic , the language of Jesus and his parents and most of his friends (disciples)



From Aramaic to Greek, to Latin ...
(See Gnostic Gospels online)



The Christian writers of the first period mention the existence of the Gospel called "Logia", which means words, written in Hebrew-Aramaic. In addition, some Western scientists who started to research the Gospels beginning from the eighteenth century state that there was one single Gospel before the current four Gospels emerged and that the current Gospels were written based on that Gospel.
Lessing, one of those researchers, stated in the thesis he put forward at the end of the eighteenth century that there was an original Gospel before the four Gospels, that its language was Aramaic and that Matthew, Mark and Luke made use of it when they wrote their Gospels.

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The Aramaic word for God is "Aloho", which is a version of "Elohim" in Hebrew, the language closest to Aramaic.
Sounds a lot like the Hawaiian word for both hello and goodbye, "Aloha"! Perfect for the last word Jesus is said to have spoken to the multitudes.

Like "Shalom" in Hebrew, Hawaiian "Aloha" means both hello and goodbye, with the true, underlying meaning, "peace and love".

Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac was the father of Jacob also called Israel, and Jacob was the father of Judah and his brothers.

FYI our source Irenaeus who mentions these oral traditions of Papias didn't include gnostic writings among them, actually he wrote a book against them - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm - See 5.33 for more information on Papias. The claim of Aramaic and Hebrew originals of NT Gospels is quite controversial and disputed though. Some verses in the Greek make more sense when translated into Hebrew, like the Hebraic idiom in Matthew 6:22-23, but that doesn't prove that the original was Hebrew, it proves that Jesus didn't preach in Greek most of the time, which is already a given. There are also Hebrew puns in the Gospel of Matthew, but I am thinking the same way, the oral sayings were written in Greek so that the gospel may reach the entire world through the common language at the time. Large part of Daniel was also written in Aramaic, because this language was more familiar to many Jews after the exile. In truth their writings don't seem to bear any homage to Hellenism compared to someone like Philo.

leomoon said:

Perhaps many such as myself. Not totally offensive to me personally, but I don't agree at all with this premise stated. There are Coptic Christians the 1=2% minority peoples in Egypt for example, who were actually the first Christians.



They are also the same people who hold access to the tremendous scroll find at Nag Hammadi in the 40s. They have a museum in what is called "Coptic Cairo" as well as churches and a thriving community there and elsewhere in the country.



"Coptic Christians are the Christians that are living in Egypt. They came into existence after the ascension of Jesus Christ at around 42 CE. Saint Mark who was the writer of the gospel of Mark first introduced Christianity in Egypt"
(Actually, they are the original modern Egyptians in that country.)
.History Of The Coptic Christians - WorldAtlas.com


www.worldatlas.com/articles/history-of-the-coptic-christians.html

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How can Copts be the first Christians? Have you read the book of Acts which records the first preaching of the apostles to the Jews? And Jesus initially forbade the apostles to go to Gentile and Samaritan towns during his ministry - Matthew 10:5.

Not everyone follows Ireaeus or his opinions. I know I don't...


The purpose of "Against Heresies" was to refute the teachings of various Gnostic groups; apparently, several Greek merchants had begun an oratorial campaign in Irenaeus' bishopric, teaching that the material world was the accidental creation of an evil god, from which we are to escape by the pursuit of gnosis. Irenaeus argued that the true gnosis is in fact knowledge of Christ, which redeems rather than escapes from bodily existence.


https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/beyond-belief-elaine-pagels/1102391918






Until the discovery of the Library of Nag Hammadi in 1945, Against Heresies was the best-surviving description of Gnosticism. Some religious scholars have argued the findings at Nag Hammadi have shown Irenaeus' description of Gnosticism to be inaccurate and polemic in nature (See Elaine Pagels "Beyond Belief") who refutes him



note: Great title btw, "Beyond Belief"


Elaine Pagels, one of the world's most important writers and thinkers on religion and history, and winner of the National Book Award for her groundbreaking work "The Gnostic Gospels," now reflects on what matters most about spiritual and religious exploration in the twenty-first century. This bold new book explores how Christianity began by tracing its earliest texts, including the secret Gospel of Thomas, rediscovered in Egypt in 1945.




from an Introduction to Beyond Belief:



When her infant son was diagnosed with fatal pulmonary hypertension, Elaine Pagels's spiritual and intellectual quest took on a new urgency, leading her to explore historical and archeological sources and to investigate what Jesus and his teachings meant to his followers before the invention of doctrine-and before the invention of Christianity as we know it.

The astonishing discovery of the Gospel of Thomas, along with more than fifty other early Christian texts unknown since antiquity, offers startling clues. Pagels compares such sources as Thomas's gospel with the canonic texts to show how Christian leaders chose to include some gospels and exclude others from the collection we have come to know as the New Testament. To stabilize the emerging Christian church in times of devastating persecution, the church fathers constructed the canon, creed, and hierarchy-and, in the process, suppressed many of its spiritual resources. Drawing on new scholarship-her own, and that of an international group of scholars-that has come to light since the publication in 1979 of The Gnostic Gospels, Pagels shows that what matters about Christianity involves much more than any one set of beliefs.



Traditions embodied in Judaism and Christianity can powerfully affect us in heart, mind, and spirit, inspire visions of a new society based on practicing justice and love, even heal and transform us. Provocative, beautifully written, and moving

david starling said:

Wait....who are the faithful who might find this wider definition of "Jewish" offensive?

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When I was in my 20's and first met my husband at age 24, I took GREAT offense at his joke, "Does the Pope wear a beanie?" when he'd question one's not believing something or other. In otherwords, its suppose to mean "Yes"..


Thank god, he helped me evolve and see the clouds of brainwashing that the othodoxy of the Church created over my life.


note: It still took a few years for me to not be insulted by "does the pope wear a beanie" question.

leomoon said:

When I was in my 20's and first met my husband at age 24, I took GREAT offense at his joke, "Does the Pope wear a beanie?" when he'd question one's not believing something or other. In otherwords, its suppose to mean "Yes"..


Thank god, he helped me evolve and see the clouds of brainwashing that the othodoxy of the Church created over my life.


note: It still took a few years for me to not be insulted by "does the pope wear a beanie" question.

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I always heard it as "Is the Pope Catholic?"

Most often, "Does a bear sh*t in the woods?"

Thank God, he helped me see the clouds of brainwashing that occultism creates in people's lives.

David: - Oh I use to hear that one too! I forgot about it. It took a few more years of study, (Cardinal signs don't easily give in) but eventually logic and listening to common sense, began to lift those clouds. After all, I had gone to Catholic Schools, churches, etc for many years. I think (organized religions & orthodoxy) is more an emotional security blanket for most.

note: It still took a few years for me to not be insulted by "does the pope wear a beanie" question. I always heard it as "Is the Pope Catholic?"

Most often, "Does a bear sh*t in the woods?"

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added:
I have long since, adhered more to the same ideas as Spinoza promulgated, as did Einstein when the said the following:

author of this pdf thesis - Peter Critchley:

"Spinoza’s ethics are firmly grounded in the intellectual appreciation of theone single self-subsistent entity ‘God/Nature’. For Spinoza, the ‘intellectual love of God’ is the highest form of philosophic wisdom and is achieved through the recognition of facts without the intrusion of subjective fears and hopes. This recognition is impassive, without sentiment.


Let us recall again Einstein’s statement: 'I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings'.

Such a view would explain God in terms of natural laws and processes and would also indicate God’s apparent indifference to human suffering, pain, misery etc. That would be one answer to the question as to why human beings rather than God are responsible for the bad things that happen in the world"



https://www.academia.edu/1695986/God_Who_What_and_Where
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Although Spinoza is my go-to for reason and logic as well as faith in a "fair" god of neutrality, (for he makes it to rain on the just and unjust alike) Matt: 5:

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

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I do tend to give due respect to ALL who follow a spiritual path, regardless of the methodology they choose as long as they do not harm others.



And in saying this, I distinguish between orthodox religions with no room for another's opinion. The last time I went to a church I had to pull my husband kicking & screaming out the door, j/k and attended an Episcopal Mass because I always heard they were the most liberal of all the Christian churches today. I wasn't disappointed but haven't yet returned. I would try Unity too, but the one nearest me is not that close plus they tend to have Spiritualists come to their services to speak. That was okay for me when young and curious, but I've moved away from this other then curiosity when I was in my early 20s. Haven't been back since.



****Did however, pick up a little booklet there back then which I managed to hold onto, when everything else was sold or given away to LIbraries when we moved.
It was by Krishnamurti when he was a child.


I've long since decided K wasn't my type of tea either for what I consider to be very good reason. And his name was the late Physicist David Bohm. ... (poor guy) Spoiler alert: Dr. Bohm was brokenhearted because of his years at the feet of "K" in California.


Fraud or Saint?

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/krishnamurti.asp

leomoon said:

David: - Oh I use to hear that one too! I forgot about it. It took a few more years of study, (Cardinal signs don't easily give in) but eventually logic and listening to common sense, began to lift those clouds. After all, I had gone to Catholic Schools, churches, etc for many years. I think (organized religions & orthodoxy) is more an emotional security blanket for most.

added:
I have long since, adhered more to the same ideas as Spinoza promulgated, as did Einstein when the said the following:

author of this pdf thesis - Peter Critchley:

"Spinoza’s ethics are firmly grounded in the intellectual appreciation of theone single self-subsistent entity ‘God/Nature’. For Spinoza, the ‘intellectual love of God’ is the highest form of philosophic wisdom and is achieved through the recognition of facts without the intrusion of subjective fears and hopes. This recognition is impassive, without sentiment.


Let us recall again Einstein’s statement: 'I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings'.

Such a view would explain God in terms of natural laws and processes and would also indicate God’s apparent indifference to human suffering, pain, misery etc. That would be one answer to the question as to why human beings rather than God are responsible for the bad things that happen in the world"



https://www.academia.edu/1695986/God_Who_What_and_Where
------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Although Spinoza is my go-to for reason and logic as well as faith in a "fair" god of neutrality, (for he makes it to rain on the just and unjust alike) Matt: 5:
I do tend to give due respect to ALL who follow a spiritual path, regardless of the methodology they choose as long as they do not harm others.



And in saying this, I distinguish between orthodox religions with no room for another's opinion. The last time I went to a church I had to pull my husband kicking & screaming out the door, j/k and attended an Episcopal Mass because I always heard they were the most liberal of all the Christian churches today. I wasn't disappointed but haven't yet returned. I would try Unity too, but the one nearest me is not that close plus they tend to have Spiritualists come to their services to speak. That was okay for me when young and curious, but I've moved away from this other then curiosity when I was in my early 20s. Haven't been back since.



****Did however, pick up a little booklet there back then which I managed to hold onto, when everything else was sold or given away to LIbraries when we moved.
It was by Krishnamurti when he was a child.


I've long since decided K wasn't my type of tea either for what I consider to be very good reason. And his name was the late Physicist David Bohm. ... (poor guy) Spoiler alert: Dr. Bohm was brokenhearted because of his years at the feet of "K" in California.


Fraud or Saint?

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/krishnamurti.asp

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Krishnamurti was a brilliant thinker who declined not just sainthood, but being designated the messiah (of all things!) by Rosecutions. He relied on logic, and encouraged people to think for themselves. He warned against ritualistic religious practices in an effort to achieve enlightenment.

Here's one: The farmer prays for rain, and the brick-maker prays for sun. But, God doesn't play favorites.

David:
Fraud or Saint?

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stg...ishnamurti.asp Krishnamurti was a brilliant thinker who declined not just sainthood, but being designated the messiah (of all things!) by Rosecutions. He relied on logic, and encouraged people to think for themselves. He warned against ritualistic religious practices in an effort to achieve enlightenment.

Here's one: The farmer prays for rain, and the brick-maker prays for sun. But, God doesn't play favorites.

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Did you ever study K's chart in accordance with the insider information about David Bohm? OR his natal chart with light of what his lover's daughter said about him(i.e. K) , her mother Rosalind and his bff Rosalind's husband. Seems she maintains and others verified it, that Rosalind had an abortion through becoming pregnant with "K"'s child, per his request; and of course is counter being celibate he celebrated publicly.


For many, including David Bohm, it amounted to hypocrisy.



Rajagopal Sloss stated the following regarding the work:
This is not only the story of one person. It is the story of the relationships of J. Krishnamurti and people closely involved with him, especially Rosalind Williams Rajagopal and D. Rajagopal, my mother and father, and of the consequences of this involvement on their lives. Recently there have been biographies and a biographical film on Krishnamurti that have left areas, and a large span of years, in mysterious darkness. It is not in the interest of historical integrity, especially where such a personality is concerned, that there be these areas of obscurity.
— Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti, Preface


Here is his natal chart (sorry to disappoint anyone who believed in him or still does, I'm sure he was valuable for many) starting with Annie Besant (Theosophist and herself an Astrologer) who brought him and his brother over from India as children to England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Besant


J. Krishnamurti's natal chart (note the 5th house) I realize too that Yogananda also had a difficult chart to overcome according to him and his guru, but from everything I've read, he managed to do so...and didn't represent anything different in private then what you saw in public.


https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Krishnamurti,_Jiddu


https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Yogananda,_Paramahansa


[FONT=&quot]Ref: Yogananda:

Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A lifelong celibate and mystic, Yogananda wrote that he burned the prophecies about his life written down by the family's astrologer because he did not want to be controlled by its prediction of marrying three times. Though his family pressed him to marry, his determination to follow the spiritual path was resolute. [/FONT]

leomoon said:

David:
Fraud or Saint?



Did you ever study K's chart in accordance with the insider information about David Bohm? OR his natal chart with light of what his lover's daughter said about him(i.e. K) , her mother Rosalind and his bff Rosalind's husband. Seems she maintains and others verified it, that Rosalind had an abortion through becoming pregnant with "K"'s child, per his request; and of course is counter being celibate he celebrated publicly.


For many, including David Bohm, it amounted to hypocrisy.



Rajagopal Sloss stated the following regarding the work:
This is not only the story of one person. It is the story of the relationships of J. Krishnamurti and people closely involved with him, especially Rosalind Williams Rajagopal and D. Rajagopal, my mother and father, and of the consequences of this involvement on their lives. Recently there have been biographies and a biographical film on Krishnamurti that have left areas, and a large span of years, in mysterious darkness. It is not in the interest of historical integrity, especially where such a personality is concerned, that there be these areas of obscurity.
— Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti, Preface

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Unfortunately, intelligence doesn't indicate a high standard of morality!

Sorry, I posted this piece later, so you may not have seen it regarding:


https://www.astro.com/astro-databank...a,_Paramahansa


[FONT=&quot]Ref: Yogananda:

Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A lifelong celibate and mystic, Yogananda wrote that he burned the prophecies about his life written down by the family's astrologer because he did not want to be controlled by its prediction of marrying three times. Though his family pressed him to marry, his determination to follow the spiritual path was resolute.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Personally, after listening to his voice (see YouTube videos of him in the early days), marrying people, etc- I was shocked to hear the squeakiness of the voice and the same with the voice of Edgar Cayce in trance. SHOCKED!!! We expect one thing and are surprised when it's different from the "vision" we hold of a person. A 3rd squeaky voice come to think of it was Jane Robert's in trance as "Seth".
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]EXAMPLE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Scnp1FJVU
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6RuJ65DvJ0&t=2487s
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here is what his Guru, [/FONT]
His guru, Sri Yukteshwar Giri, was a Taurus Sun (10 May 1855 - 9 March 1936).[FONT=&quot]

As a good Capricorn Sun, Yogananda was obedient and respectful of his superior. Many of his ideas were an influence of his revolutionary and scientific guru:

Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]At their very first meeting, and on many occasions thereafter, Sri Yukteswar told the young disciple that he had been chosen as the one to disseminate the ancient science of Kriya Yoga in America and worldwide.[/FONT]

david starling said:

Wasn't Jesus Jewish? If so, his faithful are Jewish also.

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Why don't you ask Christians about this?

Being provocative simply for its own sake does not make your point. It just suggests a lack of awareness of religion today.

Pointing to a mythical common ancestor does not mean these faiths recognize one another as belonging to them today.

petosiris said:

To say that Jesus and his apostles were Jews, that is offensive to Satan.

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That's not what either David or I are saying.

Plus, Satan is not real.

petosiris said:

Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.” - Is. 56

Really, waybread? Are you saying He will surely separate us from your people?

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I have no idea what you thought I meant-- or what you mean.