[HELP] Strange Mars

Hi, johan! Really glad to meet you again! I'm sooooo happy! haaaaaaa...

Never mind, I'm still waiting for your reply. It's just a game, so playing game can never be late, ahaa?

My trasit is sooooooo interesting these days! I have my first foreign travell and first air flight in July 18th, and I have a great great great holiday in Australia with my nice nice nice school mates. OH, when I'm back home, I really feel a rebirth, a new life.

When I look back those days that I had in Australia, I even surprise how it could be sooooo good. Even to me, Venus and Mercury in perfectionist Virgo, I feel it perfect. Perfect!!!

You may feel puzzled why I was so changed now, ahaa? I think the reason is I find many many people really lovely. I said I'd like to be alone but never feel lonely. But now I say I also like people but never feel crowded.

Greetings.

AND when now I find some psychic abilities on me. I wonder why. I don't like to be so weird. BUT...my experience tell me it is ture. And my mother talked to me about her feel on me. She feel I'm a enigma. Also my close friends tell me so. Maybe it is also because my strange Mars in H12? Or H12 ruler Moon conjunction to Saturn in H4 and sextile Nepture?

Recently I read something about Numerology, and I'm surprised that it is pointed out clearly by Lifepath 7 and Destiny 7. OH MY! Too weird!

The sign relationship in aspect analysis is only valid for 30-degree multiple (12th harmonic) aspects. I think many astrologers who only use major 12th harmonic aspects assume sign relationship is truely what drives the aspects.

I would disagree. I consider aspects as part of a process, a process related to the waveform of the energy relationship. While it is true that 12th harmonic aspects do coincide with the meanings of the zodiacal signs, this demonstrates that the zodiac is properly laid out, not that aspects derive thier power from the zodiac.

A square represents a turning point, a conflict, a change of direction not because the signs are at odds, but because the natural sinusoidal wave of energy actually takes a change in direction 90 degrees into the waveform.

In the case of a square:


We have two waveforms 90 degrees out of phase. When one waveform is at its maximum deviation from zero, the other waveform is at zero. This shows the extreme differences of energy levels being expressed.

In the case of an opposition:

We have two waveforms 180 degrees out of phase. When one waveform is at full deviation, the other is also at full deviation, but of the opposite polarity. Yet, when the waveforms come to zero amplitude, they meet up. Here we see the power of the opposition: complimentary, yet opposite forces at work, with a similar middle meeting point, much like two signs in opposition of in the zodiac.

When one begins to use aspects that are not divisible by 30, and realizes the power of these aspects is nothing to scoff at, one further questions the reality of the signs forming the power of the aspects. The semi-square, an extremely powerful 8th harmonic aspect, could take place between two adjacent signs or between two signs with a third sign in the middle (such as with the sextile). The sesquiquadrate could take place between signs normally trine or quincunx to eachother, etc etc.

in the same respect, when one considers sidereal positions, and realizes that an "out of sign" aspect in the tropical zodac is often an "in-sign" aspect in the sidereal zodiac, one again questions which one may be right.

After much consideration of the technical methodology behind aspects, I have to side with Dane Rudhyar's approach to astrological aspects, which he outlines in his book "Astrological Aspects: A Process Oriented Approach" which is a truely amazing piece of work. I highly recommend anyone interested in the study of astrological aspects pick up a copy, as it will open your mind to a whole new understanding of aspects, as well as provide exceptional explainations of the minor aspects. If only this material was not still protected by copyright, I would take the time to digitize the entire work.

This is not to say that when considering an aspect, that sign relationships should be ruled out completely. in fact, they are the next-most-important consideration when determining how an aspect will play out. If one has a square by waveform relationship that is actually a sextile by sign relationship, one will still be driven to action and forced to reconcile the differences of the two objects, but the process will tend to play out in a more organized, coherent manner due to the balanced, organized nature of the sign energies being in natural sextile relation.

One who has a square by wave process and a sextile by sign process may consider themselves lucky, as the conflict between the objects in question may be easier to resolve, and the tension produced tends to be mitigated by the sign's sextile relationship. On the other hand, when the waveform process square is a quincunx by sign, the excessive uneasyness and thought-provoking power of the quincucx can add to the tension, forcing the native to constantly consider and analyze the differences expressed by the square waveform aspect. Remember that the quincunx is a mental aspect, as the native is driven to tidy up all loose ends before the oppositional process, which forces the reconcilation of opposite, yet equal, forces.

That said, it is important to realize that both the aspect by degrees as well as the aspect by sign interact. I personally consider the aspect by degree more important, but the sign relationship is nothing to scoff at either. One can only gain a true understand of the process at work by considering both factors.

I suppose this whole subject is as debateable as sidereal vs tropical or this-house-system vs that-house-system, but I figured I'd provide my take on the matter

Hi, unukalhai. Thanks for your insights! So much information, Somewhat confused. Ahaa...

I want to read Dane Rudhyar's approach to astrological aspects, if I could read it. I'm not sure if I could understand that. Not smart enough

I think we can think the aspect in another way--ruler planet. I mean planet relationship and yin-yang relationship. Such as yang Sun-yang Jupiter-yang Mars, yang Mercury-yang Venus-yang Saturn, yin Moon-yin Mars-yin Jupiter, yin Venus-yin Mercury-yin Saturn for Fire, Air, Water, Earth sign. AND further, the relationship of yin and yang, planet and planet. Maybe this can explain aspected planets better? I don't know... Just guess.

30-degree multiple or not does not affect this rule. So we say, any aspect can form by it. We can take Mars square as inharmony angle in harmony planets, we also can take the square as another new aspect, a relationship between new born yang Sun and Old aged yang Venus. They are both yang, so they are harmony, they are in two extreme age, so they are inharmony. Such as a baby boy to grand grand father, both male, different experience. BUT in fact they are similar. So I can't see any conflict it would be.

Thanks again.

Wow, unukalhai, that's certainly a new take (for me!) on the topic of aspects! Thank you, I found it thought provoking indeed. Now I am trying to picture the wavelengths for my out-of-sign aspects

How would a 'loose' aspect, like a wide square, look? Like the square you've illustrated below, but with an inexact match between maximum and minimum points between the two energies? Interesting. Would you consider wider aspects less 'intense' for this reason? Still 'something like a square' but not exactly?

Basically I'm trying to conceptualise the difference between a loose in-sign square, and a tight out-of-sign square (where squaring planets trine by signs). Based on the assumption that I share with you (that aspects by degrees are more significant than aspects by sign) I would expect the former to be more difficult to reconcile, but experienced less intensely, and the latter to be more intensely experienced, but perhaps easier to reconcile due to the easier sign relationship.

I realise that there are different approaches to intepreting, and indeed recognising aspects, but what you've said below seems to offer a richer explanation of why some may consider the degrees to be more important.

I'd be very interested to hear what you think about aspect orbs and strengths

Hi fifth!

Good to hear you enjoyed your vacation in Australia and your fellow-students!Have you considered what transits/progressions making you feel more happy now?Curious to hear your opinion for that!The last time I heard from you Mars was about to enter your first house,right?
I won a dart-tournament(playing darts is a hobby of me)when Venus was in conjunction with my MC!I find it interesting of astrology to look back than when Venus was also conjunct my MC to see what happened then.

Well lillybelle and unukalhai.I only can say that in practice a square just doesn't work if it is out of sign,while if there is even a wider orb but in the right sign it does!While the different elements are so important.I am not impressed to see some graphics,I like to see what works in practice.And I have done my own little research on this matter.That is not to say I am only a student of astrology,knowing so little yet,but eager to learn.But we can debate on this forever,and anyone has to find out for him/herself.

Greetings Johan

Johan, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I have the same point of view that you have. I agree with your previous post. L.

Hi Johan,

I think you might have meant me, rather than Lillybelle. No disrespect intended towards your own astrological understandings, it's just that I tend to view aspects the other way round and unukalhai's illustrations are one more way of thinking about what aspects are, and how they work. It's a new concept for me and exciting for that reason. I would agree with you entirely that each person can only draw their own conclusions from experiences and research, and from what they may gain through the understandings of others. In practice, I am still deciding what 'out-of-sign' aspects are for me
.

Hihi,I was aware Lillybelle,you agreed with me,I was just addressing to you.Ofcourse this is no attack for Unukalhai,like he said it is all debateable just providing his take on the matter,I was just defending my point of view here.Interesting for everyone to see in their chart and others if a square that is only mathematical(and ofcourse other aspects)and not a square by element works.If I were you Howl,I would also be interested by Unukalhai's post.So investigate and let me know!

Johan, I thought about why... Though I'm not so sure, I want to share my point of view.

I think Mars is very interesting in my natal chart. First, it is the ruler of Aries and Scorpio, the 4th and 9th sign in my chart. Second, it is in conjunction with my Ascendant. Third, it is in 1st sign in my chart. Fourth, it is in cusp, 0 degree Leo. Fifth, fire sign planet Mars, Sun, Jupiter are all in fire sign in my chart, with Mars, Sun in Leo and Jupiter in Sag, Sun and Jupiter in their own sign, and Mars trine Jupiter, and Sun, Nepturn, MC fire grand trine.

I'd like to consider Mars in 1st sign as H1, whole house division. Because Mars is the ruler of 4th and 9th sign, with trine to Jupiter and Uranus, and I find things related to H4 and H9 goes smooth and easy for me. My family provide me so much resource and joy(H4), my higher education is successful and my foreign travall feels so great, even surprised myself and beyond my imagination. I enjoy learning foreign language and foreign culture, which may be a hopeless suffer to most fellow students(H9). And all this can be seen and known by everyone around me, not in secretive way at all(Mars H12).

Maybe this is how to explan my foreign luck in natal chart. I can't see any clue in transitting chart. My vocation lasted 2 weeks, and when I'm back home, Mars is in H2 already.

Though I know little about Western Astrology, I get used to Chinese Astrology well. Compared with 10 main planets of Western Astrology, Chinese Astrology have 14 main planets, and more than 200 stars if the minor ones considered. Because I'm more familiar with my own culture, I can predict and explain my experience by Chinese Astrology better. There're many many clues to know it

But Western Astrology can help me to understand myself better in another way.

I said I'm somewhat psychic and I don't know why, I just like weird things because myself is weird. And that's why others take me as enigma?

To make it more clear----If show Decans Sign Chart, it's another look. Whole house division.

Mars and Jupiter are in their sign's first decan, and Sun in third decan. Then Mars, Jupiter and Sun forms Grand Trine in Decans Chart.

AND I find this is an interesting way to interprete natal chart. Just my way.

First, Whole House Division.

Second, find planet in its own sign or own house. In this chart, Sun, Mercury, Jupiter in their own sign, and Mars, Venus in their own house.

Third, find planet in exaltation, detriment and fall in the same way.

Fourth, omit 3 outer planet Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. Take Saturn as Aquarius ruler, Jupiter Pisces, Mars Scorpio.

Fifth, look at 12 house ruler and planets in 12 house.

Sixth, check gain or lose of things related to 12 house by house ruler planet(sign ruler). In this chart, Mars and Sun in H1, both to gain things of H1, and then I know I have a big personality. H2 the same. H8 ruler Jupiter in its own sign, gain to things of H8. and so on...

fifth,that is a lot of info for me.I would like to study it some more,and also your progressed chart.
I am not a supporter of the wholehouse division,nor saturn as ruler of aquarius and mars as ruler of scorpio.
But I see that the ruler of the ninth house is in the fifth house,love for foreign culture,and co-ruler of the ninth conjunct the ascendant.
But I am too much a student to see the whole picture yet,fifth.I will study your chart some more to see if I can get a more complete picture!

Over-whelming sense...

I had enough with it. Nearly whenever I'm unconscious, strange sense soar in my mind. I'm sure I'm not mad at all.

The sense is about different people's last moments of their lives. Male and female, young and old, native and foreign... The sense appears clearly and smoothly like a movie, with dialog and partner, with particular suroundings, and it's always the last moments of the movie, I mean one person die. Then the strange sense is over. And I know it's none of the movie clips I have ever seen in TV or PC. This can occur whenever I'm unconscious, such as moments before asleep, dream, daytime or some time I don't think anything at all.

Re: Over-whelming sense...

To 5th,

It sounds to me like you may be seeing bits from your past lives. I've had this happen, although not always the "last scene". You are seeing this for a reason - something you need to learn from it. Perhaps, since it is the "last scene" you are seeing, it is to show you that you don't really die, that you have lived many lives, etc. - something along those lines. I have a friend that sees this, too, and in dreams, and it is always the "last scene". He is a staunch traditional "Christian", and adamantly denies reincarnation. I think he is being shown otherwise. Anyway, hope this helps.

Hi freedomlover, I know someone must say it in your way, before I'd post my strange sense. Well... I just know it...

Pretty sad, ahaa? I really don't want to be like this way. BUT I have to go on...

Thanks for your kindness!

AND to know it by Numerology, double 7 matters. 7 lifepath and 7 destiny. Maybe 7 is fated to be so weird! Ahaaaa!!!

There is an important distinction to be made between an 'in-sign' and an 'out-of-sign' aspect. Aspect theory, according to modern schools of astrology, are a function of degree relationship and not only sign. In earlier theory, this was not the case. There were (are) even methods where ALL planets in Aries were considered square to ALL planets in both Cancer and Capricorn, for example. Today, we do make the distinction (unless you adhere to an extremely narrow methodology, as Johan apparently does) between in-sign and out-of-sign. An out-of-sign aspect, because of the element discrepency mentioned by Johan, will feel and manifest differently than one which is in-element. But it is still a square and must be delineated as such. Not to do so, especially in a tight orb, like this one, is to simply ignore an important symbolic dynamic.

And consider this; in this example direction motion will carry both that Saturn and that Moon into Scorpio before the subject reaches his/her first birthday. In addition, that Pluto will arrive at around 3 years of age. All three factors will then be in a pretty tight square, in element, in the important formative years. And believe me, if you think that a Mars-Saturn AND a Mars-PLUTO square will not be felt, you're making a grave error!! I cannot stress this enough. This is another reason why it simply cannot be ignored, simply based on element theory or some classical edict.

Hi, Firemoon! Thanks for your comments!

"And consider this; in this example direction motion will carry both that Saturn and that Moon into Scorpio before the subject reaches his/her first birthday. In addition, that Pluto will arrive at around 3 years of age. All three factors will then be in a pretty tight square, in element, in the important formative years. "

Well, this happened when I'm too little, 3 years old? Then I was in kindergarten, nothing special... nothing too bad, too good, or too impressive. It seems that even in-sign square is not so forceful? I don't know Maybe I was too little to take action, ahaaa...

If I could feel it really well, there should be impressive scars of this square? BUT I can't feel Mars-Pluto or -Saturn or -Moon work out obviously. Even compared to Venus-Uranus squre, with a much more loose orb, I feel later one very obviously but former one not so. As astrology theory described, Mars-Pluto suqare is so forceful and violent, but I'm not like that at all and I really hate to take violent action or fight like a beast; Mars-Saturn is so difficult to carry out personal action, but the oppsite is true, I even often guild others to take right action for their personal development; Mars-Moon is so easy to be angery, BUT I find myself try to calm down others when they are angery. So I think myself do not fit to these description at all. If I'm like the description of Mars square, I would not ask a question like "yes or not square".

Hi 5th...

Another name for Pluto is Hades. Hades in ancient Greek means something close to "Hidden". Because Saturn is the planet of Discipline and Structure, a good part of how he manifests is by cutting off and boxing in. Just because you can take exagerrated, one-dimensional, cook-book delineations and deny them does not mean that this dynamic doesn't have symbolic bearing on your inner life. We use the word UNconscious to make clear that it is not conscious.

How do these squares manifest? Sometimes it does not lie right on the surface. That's a sign that understanding them more deeply will precipitate transformation in your perception, ESPECIALLY when Pluto is involved. Not all manifestations of these squares are blatantly negative. There is a great deal of power here, which can be used to create enormous change on numerous levels. I can assure you that in consultation with someone you trust, what the dynamics are would emerge very quickly along with their vast potential.

Please also notice that there is a Void of Water in your horoscope, making a strong symbolic suggestion about the feeling function. In addition, Neptune forms a Sextile to the Libra stellium and an out-of-sign quincunx to the Mars, creating a wedge pattern. Neptune symbolically obscures, it doubts, it negates and it can throw everything into a symbolic fog at times.

As if that weren't enough, your Draconic Pluto is in a conjunction to your Tropical Mars, emphasizing that 'hidden' quality mentioned above.

Believe me, despite Johan's well-meaning assertions, you wouldn't find a serious, well-trained, humanistic, psychologically-oriented astrologer who would tell you these are not squares.


FM

UNconscious----well, a good word. My unconscious world is very very interesting to me! Can you interpret my Mars more clearly? I can't understand my unconsciousness so clearly... Though every night I have dream, dream like endless movie play in my mind, I don't know whether I live in a dream or in reality. I'd rather stay in my dream! At least not so boring. At least I can fly and walk through walls in my dream, and be any form I'd like to. When I find consciousness is not enough, I'd wish a dream then get it. Life is much more interesting in dream. Maybe I live a too boring life... And Neptune is also very interesting to me, because I feel it must play a very important part in my life. With void of water, many things cannot expressed by affection, and even myself wonder if I really need affection...or be affectional!