What house system should I be using?

Cascada

Well-known member
Placidus vs. Whole Sign

Which one do you think is most accurate? Do you think it depends on the person and what feels right for them? Personally I feel like I relate more to my placements using Placidus, but there're some planetary placements in whole sign that seem a little like me too.. so I don't know.

Opinions appreciated.

I'm aware that this subject has probably cropped up lots, but I haven't found any threads yet so if you know of any let me know :)

Should we take both Placidus and Whole Sign placements into account when interpreting a chart?
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

(Following is my own experience and opinion and is not intended to be antagonistic to those using other house system formats)

I used Placidus for over 30 years-and I got good results. But too often I was left with doubts regarding house placements, the problem of intercepted signs, factors in the chart that just didn't seem to fit in too well. But, I obtained good results.

In the late 1990's I learned about the rediscovery of the original ancient house system format, actually called sign=house, but which soon became known simply as "whole sign": I began experimenting with it, I obtained even better results than my previous use of Placidus, and also I never again ran into such unnatural issues like intercepted signs, intercepted houses, etc (which always at least occasionally happen using any of the quadrant house formats)

Since 1998 I have exclusively used whole sign for any and all types of astrological charts-horary, natal, profection, Solar Return, composite, mundane, event charts: I have been quite satisfied with the results, and it is my opinion that the whole sign house format consistently yields the most accurate results (hence one of my nicknames, "Dr. Whole Sign")
 

piercethevale

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

My disclaimer reads the same as Dr. Farrs'. So I need not have to type it here.

I have found to my complete satisfaction though, that as far as interpreting [knowing or understanding] what ones approach or attitude is as to the affairs of the particular House in question [unless one is fighting ones own nature or determinedly applying some directive or philosophy they have dedicated themselves to] that Placidus is the choice for the particular application of interpretation of House Cusp degree symbolism.
I only believe in the set of symbols known as the Sabian Symbols though, and whether or not any other set of such degree for the Zodiac have any veracity is up to yourself to determine... the Sabians as well, as I'm not trying to ram anything down anyones throat here.
I'm just saying, that if you do wish to start, or already are, utilizing Sabian Symbols in this manner... I won't recommend anything else for that purpose other than Placidus.
Whether Placidus should be the only House system one should use for all matters of Astrological houses is another matter altogether and I'm not addressing that nor do I care too.
 
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piercethevale

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

I realized that this concept may be so foreign to you or anyone that reads it that I'd best give an example.
Let me use the 8th House as an example...as I can really speak from a lot of experience as to a particular matter concerning the 8th House. That matter being of with the dissolution of of material structures back into energy. An example is that of which 'elemental or 'sympathetic magick' is a part of. It deals with anything that [but certainly not limited to] some sort of 'presence', if I may be permitted to say, that some one might 'conjure up' using the aforesaid types of "magick' [Now if you don't want to believe in 'magick', as such, that's fine. Please discontinue reading and disregard this post of mine...but I do wish to complete this explanation for any others that may also have read to this point and would like for me to complete this post.] As the 8th House does deal with things of dissolution and by that dissolute beings [meaning astral and or etheric entities, un-embodied energies, ghosts etc...things of such nature. ...if someone wishes to say "Demons"...that would fall into this category. Now, I"M NOT SAYING...I'm just saying...if you catch my drift.]

Awhile back someone thought they were, "Going to show me a thing or two"...as to to the only way I can put this... let's just say I was dealing with a very determined individual with a very aggressive agenda as to "getting me out of the picture" as He saw me in His way as to getting to my sister... whom is a very physically beautiful woman and had sought some advice on some spiritual matters and she is a bit naive about trusting people that advertise such service, believing them to be 'aligned with the direction' she thinks every one is, or should be, that would so advertise.

So to get to the point..let me just say that this 'advisor' won't ever dare try to approach her again and certainly won't try me again for the reason I can only illustrate and that illustration being the Sabian Symbol for the 17th degree of Gemini, my Placidus 8th House cusp.
..and which is [by the late, great 20th century writer, philosopher, astrologer, Dane Rudhyar, from his book on these symbols, "An Astrological Mandala"]

"THE HEAD OF A ROBUST YOUTH CHANGES INTO THAT OF A MATURE THINKER.

KEYNOTE: The transformation of physical vitality into the power to build concepts and intellectual formulations through which knowledge can be transferred
.

While in the preceding symbol we see the explosive release of impulses generated by a new realization of what is right and wrong - the "woman" way controlled by feelings - now we have a picture of a process of quiet and steady metamorphosis of biological energy into mind-power, which can be seen symbolically as the "man" way. The symbolism may seem old-fashioned today, but the two contrasting approaches to communication of new experiences remain evident, however one wishes to symbolize them.

This second stage of the sixteenth sequence, as is nearly always the case, presents a contrast with the first stage. What we see pictured is the transformation of emotions into mind, of instincts into thoughts - a process of MENTAL METAMORPHOSIS."

...If it can be done..it can be undone... or even turned around...
I can't explain it any more than that as this isn't of the venue for such discussions, nor the topic itself ..and I do apologize for having to pick this particular subject for demonstration...but it is one I am MOST assured of...and sometimes it takes 'a recounting' of something that is of 'dramatic effect' to get ones 'point' across [I'm not trying to make this any more than what it was/is to create a 'Drama' ..it happened, I'm not "making this up", and by most people that did hear such an account, I know that they would so deem it to be so.]

So, in conclusion, let me say that whatever House you wish to know of as to how you are 'wired' to deal with the affairs of that particular Houses' affairs ...regardless of House System [unless they are in conflict with those affairs of Houses that Placidus does claim to and also does actually deal with...as I know there probably are some conflicts between some systems on an affair or two... and I understand there are, according to some astrologers, definitely some conflicts in regard to that matter...] .... when using the Sabian Symbols in this manner, Placidus is the only system for that application alone that, I both know of and, I so will endorse...and I am steadfast in that conclusion... and somewhere on this Earth there is a certain person that knows this to be a fact. [if he's still alive, that is...I don't know if my sister is still so naive to this day... but at least she certainly is a little less so...so I can't I can't say for her whether or not she would so publicly endorse my statement..but I do know she won't deny it in private.]
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

Gosh, be careful! This topic can set off WWIII among astrologers!

Usually I use Placidus, but there are situations where I would use an equal house or whole signs.

To me it just makes sense to have the horizons (AC and DC) and midheaven at the beginning of their respective houses. If you look outside in a place with a good 360-degree view, this is a more natural way of looking at the sky. The MC (uppermost point of the sun's daily journey) will move, north and south, and closer to or further from the horizons, depending upon the seasons. Then just consider a sensible way of dividing up the houses between the angles.

Also, I think intercepted signs really mean something in a horoscope. A planet in an intercepted sign tends to be boxed-in, or unable to get the real traction you would otherwise expect from its placement. Someone with the sun in an intercepted sign seems to have more of an identity crisis than others, leading to uncertainty about what s/he should be doing in life.

Then you get duplicate signs in a chart, as well. Planets ruling the cusps of these houses should gain in influence in the chart. So why would I wish to lose this interpretive value?

However, whole signs have something to offer, as well. The analogy I would use is that if you want a picture of someone's face, you would probably look at the full-frontal view. But a profile or oblique angle will aid your understanding of what this person looks like.

Also, if planets are cuspy, you might want to run a series of house systems to get a clearer picture of where their influence lies.

The big caveat with Placidus is that it gets very distorted at high latitudes, such as Norway or Alaska. You find a few enormous houses with two or even more intercepted signs, and some very tiny ones. This may be mathematically correct, but not very helpful in terms of interpretation. So then I would especially look at the equal house method, or perhaps whole signs. (You can try other unequal house systems, but they may not improve matters.)

I would definitely use whole signs if a birth time were only approximate: close enough to give you the correct rising sign, but not close enough to give you the degrees of the angles.
 

Anachiel

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

Simply put, it depends on the method or "style" of astrology that you use.

If you are Hellenistic or similar, whole signs will be of use. Otherwise, Placidus or many of the myriad other houses systems do fine. If you follow Morinus method, then use his house system and dignities, etc. If you are Uranian, they have their preferred house system for their system. You get the picture.
 

Lin

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

My only advice is PLEASE....find ONE that works for you and stick to it until or unless you become very advanced and feel comfortable in experimenting in this area. Trying to fit a system to a person (I had a student who hated her ascendant and tried to prove it wasn't hers....but not only was her father and grandmother right there at the time, her mother heard the nurse call the time) - is just silly.

Lots of people "don't like" where a planet is in there chart or their ascendant...but... changing the system you use is not the answer.
So - pick one. Stick to it. If it proves to be consistantly innacurate, try another. But use one system for a year or so and do many charts before switching systems.
IMO
LIN
 

Moog

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

I find that people choosing the system that gives them the 'best chart' is fairly common, human I suppose.

But it's not the point of astrology.

Same with zodiac.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

I have found whole sign to be really good for understanding topics, and where planetary energy will manefest, and use a quadrant based system like Placidus to help determine angularity. But, like Anachiel posted, I work mostly with Hellenistic delineations.

The best advice I ever saw about house systems is to pick an astrologer you want to study, and then use the house system that astrologer uses/used.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

I reckon, we should use both housing systems.

Personally, I see different things from each system and interestingly enough, messages that I got from Both systems reflecting back my real life events very accurately.

I like whole sign system as Chinese Astrology also only use whole sign and so as the Vedic as well as Classic Western astrology.

I also accept new system for the fun of experiment and for the discovery of new technique, however, I respect the traditional systems as they given reliable results and passed the test of time.


Yer, I dont put limit to myself basically. I use whatever that works and gives me the best accurate readings.
 

Lin

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

That can get really time consuming if you do several new charts per week! Of course if you are only reading for yourself, that is different.

I believe you need to use a system you are confident in enough to believe that what you are telling someone is accurate. If you switch between systems it seems as though you don't have confidence in one of them....and if it isn't accurate you should not use it at all! If it IS accurate, you may want to experiment to see if other systems back up what your primary system says, but if there is ambiguity you may seriously confuse both yourself and the person for whom you are reading.
LIN
 

Alice McDermott

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

First of all consider that whole signs will fit probably millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world as it doesn't consider either the time or latitude of birth. It is really not a house system at all, it is just the signs of the zodiac arranged around the chart, starting at 0 degrees of the sign rising at the time of birth. it should be called 'the zodiac sign system' as that is a better description. As these charts fit so many, many people, they can't map the individual energies of a person.

House Systems, which are calculated from both the exact time and exact latitude of birth, map the energies of an individual very well indeed. They can even map the difference between people born very close together through exact aspects to house cusps, etc.,

Bear in mind that Placidus is not the only house system, there are others that are just as powerful and often more effective. Placidus is popular purely because these were the only house system calculations available for people learning astrology back in the '60's and '70's and these people went on to teach this system to many others. Previous to the popularity of Placidus, the Regiomontanus, Campanus and Alcabitius systems etc. had their periods of popularity and post Placidus, Koch, Topocentric and some others all have their adherents. So if Placidus doesn't fit properly, then it is almost certain that another house system will.

All house systems are calculated through various means of dividing time and/or space so each has mathematical validity.

So it is not as simple as Placidus versus Whole Sign or Equal House, it is much more involved than that. I have spent quite a bit of my astrological life sorting this out and have come to the conclusion that one house system doesn't fit all; people can and do have their major resonance to different ways of dividing time and space and therefore can respond to different house systems.

Unless you are a professional astrologer this doesn't matter too much. As a general rule you usually attract those who have a similar resonace to yourself so the house system you respond to will most likely fit others. If you are a professional astrologer you do need to be aware that your clients will not necessarily respond to your chosen house system and if there are problems, then check out the others. I have given a method on how to do this here: http://aliceportman.com/house-cusps-and-house-systems/

In addition, Ed Falis and some others work with mundane house cusps for events and these make a great deal of sense as well.

Waybread has mentioned that discussions on house systems usually bring about WW3 in the astrological community and I agree. I think this is because house cusps are very, very personal and people feel deeply threatened if their own system is questioned. I remember doing hours and hours and hours of work on events in a fellow astrologer's chart as he wanted to check out my system; these events showed a strong resonance to the Koch system but this astrologer had considerable emotional investment in the Placidus system so wouldn't accept my data. Since then I have learned this is a very common attitude.

In any form of astrology it is always up to the astrologer to choose what systems of measurement to use and most choose the system that resonates most strongly to their own understanding of astrology, as their understanding grows this often changes. However, for a clear map of an individual person I would advise choosing a house system rather than the very general whole signs which will fit millions of people born within two hours or equal house which will fit thousands of people born around the same time all over the world.

Alice
 
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M

may28gemini

Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Thanks for bringing up the original meaning of "cusps" and digging up info about the origins of whole signs system. It's not just for "beginners" but it's a bonafide system.

I was taught to read whole signs by the 2 different astrologers who pushed me to further study astrology. My Dad taught me to read whole signs when I was under 10 years old and he was in his 30s dabbling in astrological charts and fixed stars.

I've tried to read Placidus but it never made any sense to me. Every sign has 30 degrees so it makes sense that there's 1 sign for for 1 house. I find it sounds wacky that there could be 2 or 3 different signs in 1 house and couldn't really get into it. :ninja:
 
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Janus

Well-known member
Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

With Placidus houses, I've always wondered what determines the size of the houses. You see various sized houses in each chart, sometimes a house will be quite large, encompassing 30+ degrees, which other tiles a house will be quite small encompassing less than 30 degrees.

Why is this, and what determines it?
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Whole signs are the signs of the zodiac calculated from 0 degrees of the sign rising at the moment of birth and arranged equally around the chart. It is not a house system as such, just the signs of the zodiac. It is a very simple form of mapping, suitable for beginners, and will fit millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world.

House systems are calculated for the exact time of birth and the exact latitude of birth. These map the nature of the individual person as it is very rare for two people to be born at exactly the same time and exactly the same place in the world.

So for a very generalised form of astrology whole signs will fit the bill - it is a bit like a more involved form of Sun sign astrology. For the astrology of the individual, house systems tell the story much more accurately.

Alice

I think this was an accepted view of whole signs until very recently (in the last 10-20 years) when more and more information on ancient astrology has come to light. Whole signs is a house system, and the signs themselves define the houses, or "places." It's the entire reason for the existence of the zodiac. It may seem remedial due to it's simplicity, but simple doesn't always equal ineffective.

As to the statement that it is very generalized and not individual, this negates the purpose of the ASC degree, the IC/MC axis, the location of the lots and their degrees, the value of the 12th parts...there is a rich history of individualization to be found and used with whole signs. Angularity is still of paramount importance. The houses as the signs themselves give a very good, detailed understanding of the thematic nature of the natal chart, and show where the planetary energy will manifest.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

First of all consider that whole signs will fit probably millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the worldas it doesn't consider either the time or latitude of birth.
fwiw since whole sign houses considers BOTH time AND latitude of birth then IMO that is an inaccurate observation.

One may easily check the accuracy or inaccuracy of the observation by referring to the 'Extended Chart Selection' page provided on astro.com
:smile:
It is really not a house system at all, it is just the signs of the zodiac arranged around the chart, starting at 0 degrees of the sign rising at the time of birth. it should be called 'the zodiac sign system' as that is a better description. As these charts fit so many, many people, they can't map the individual energies of a person.

fwiw, I'm no expert, however this statement is clearly IMO erroneous and easily proved incorrect

On the 'Extended Chart Selection' page at astro.com then choose whole signs
from amongst the fourteen different house systems offered on the 'house systems' option

When you have selected 'whole signs' option then you can calculate your chart using whole sign house system

Notice that your whole sign chart displays MC/IC as well as ASC/DESC. Whole signs IS in fact a house system! - here's a useful read that explains the subject
http://www.librarising.com/astrology/misc/wholesignhouses.html
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Whole signs are the signs of the zodiac calculated from 0 degrees of the sign rising at the moment of birth and arranged equally around the chart
I would agree with this part of your post
It is not a house system as such, just the signs of the zodiac. It is a very simple form of mapping, suitable for beginners, and will fit millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world.
I differ on this point because in order to calculate whole sign house system one MUST input exact time, latitude - as well as day/date

Anyone using the 'Extended Chart Selection' on astro.com may choose the option "whole signs" from 'house systems' (there are in fact 14 house systems on offer on astro.com)
and calculate a natal chart using whole signs :smile:

fwiw, whole signs most definitely DOES NOT 'fit millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world'!

Why do I say that? I say that because a natal chart using whole signs always displays MC/IC as well as DESC/ASC because time and latitude are taken into consideration for its calculation.

House systems are calculated for the exact time of birth and the exact latitude of birth. These map the nature of the individual person as it is very rare for two people to be born at exactly the same time and exactly the same place in the world.
BUT whole sign house system DOES require the exact time of birth and the exact latitude in order to calculate it!
So for a very generalised form of astrology whole signs will fit the bill - it is a bit like a more involved form of Sun sign astrology
Whole sign house system is far more involved than Sun Sign astrology and fwiw IMO it is misleading to equate the two.
For the astrology of the individual, house systems tell the story much more accurately.Alice
House sytems do tell the story accurately and since whole signs is an accurate house system that requires an exact time and latitude for its calculation then whole signs DOES tell the story accurately because whole signs displays MC/IC/ASC/DESC
 

Moog

Well-known member
Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

I don't see how whole signs is not a house system. It is simply a system where the spaces in relationship to the horizon that denotes the topical divisions and other qualities of the houses occupy a different area than if one were to use placidus, equal, regio etc.

We still use the houses to derive topical information, and to judge planetary strength.

And it is nothing like the vague information one can glean from reading the sun sign alone, and to equate whole sign houses with sun sign astrology is very strange IMO
 
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