Re: traditional mental preparation, to waybread
.....
(1)...when you look at some of the war-torn and famine stricken countries of the world, the idea of using free will to get out of that kind of dire situation is ludicrous. Were it possible, people would already have done it - nobody wants to be tied up and raped and watch their mother and sisters go through the same ordeal, whilst seeing their father and brothers tortured and shot. Or slowly starve to death, watching their children die first.
(2)For that matter, if people had all this unbounded free will in the west, they'd be constantly changing everything from their personalities to their looks, abode, and usually - partners. And they'd have absolutely no coherent narratives about their lives.....
(3)...Certain participants in this conversation have told me that if you see violent death in a solar return, or an exacerbation of marital problems in a country where divorce isn't permitted, you should just 'grow some backbone and get through the adversity' rather than go somewhere else for your solar return, which baffles me. Granted, you can't change the planetary positions to have a wonderful life or a brilliantly harmonious marriage, but you can put some of those evil portents in less destructive houses. I see less destructive as a good thing, life is hard enough for most people. Why be killed, or be cast out and lose your children if it's not absolutely necessary for that to happen? To prove a point? What point? That life s&ucks? Yes, we know that already, it's why most people come to astrologers to begin with.
(4)Are some parts of our lives fated? I think we'd all agree that they are - men don't give birth, for instance, no matter how badly they might want to, and there are a number of universals that will always outweigh the particulars.
(5)Somehow most people don't get upset when they're told that they'll never be an Olympic athlete. But tell them they'll never be an architect (which may be equally true) and they'll scream bloody murder....
(6) It was the church that declared free will by ecclesiastical fiat - without it, Christianity becomes a theological disaster. Just imagine - how would Christianity fare as the universal religion if there is anything that could prevent you from accepting Jesus as your saviour? And thus was set the stage for 1600 years of persecution to prove that true at any cost, but I grossly oversimplify here. In other words, though, just because the church legislated it, it doesn't mean it's true. But if you grew up in a Christian country (most of the west) even if you're an atheist, you've had it pounded into your head as dogma. The Americans, sadly, are particularly famous for this....
(7) (NB again: You need not believe that God cares about you in any way, or that there's an afterlife, heaven, hell, reincarnation, karma, or any of this, and you don't need to believe that God is reified - in Hebrew, for instance, God's a verb, which is a lot more comfortable for me, personally ....
(8) Traditional astrologies are also predicated on the concept that you can't have it all. Modern astrologies tend to deny that, and often resort to 'quick fixes' (hence the growth of the self-help movement, but are people in general really any happier?), which is another sticking point. In trad, no matter how good your chart, there are things you just don't get to get....
(9)And as for those who actually read this and wonder why traditional astrologers often disregard the outer planets? They cast no light. And since they cast no light, they cannot form aspects, and they don't affect us. ...
(10) My useless contribution to an utterly useless thread. But that's largely what the trad stuff is about, at least short of writing a book on it.
Dr. Farr and Olivia, wow! Thanks for your informed comments! It just reminds me of the old saw that there is a way that the past actually happened. The historians job is to try to uncover it, not to imagine a past more convenient to points we wish to reinforce in the present.
Olivia, just some feedback on your points excerpted above.
(1.) I don't think anybody claims that free will would get people out of the dire situations you describe. Certainly nobody on this thread. Astrologers both ancient and modern stress that a chart has to be read in-context, if you can. (Sometimes we do "blind" chart readings, nonetheless.)
(2.) What you describe actually is the case for many people, although the causes vary. I have personally put the term "free will" in quotes, because it doesn't exist in any kind of pure form. I prefer terms like "moral choice." "Free will" is always bounded by the individual's historical period and place, gender, socio-economic status, culture, nationality, level of ability, and so on. A middle class white male in the US has a lot more choices than a disabled Untouchable woman on the streets of Calcutta.
(3.) I don't know if you are referring to me here, but I feel very strongly that death prediction is unethical. I happen to be backed up by ethics codes of several major astrological associations. We have to agree to disagree on this one, because we are not going to convince on another.
But let's take a common sense approach. We have to first verify the validity of a solar return chart as having this kind of impact on people's lives. I say it doesn't. It's a transit chart for a moment in time, period. Second, one generally has to travel a long ways away from one's birth place to see much change in a relocation chart. Some people have done such a relocation already, but for many people it is prohibitively expensive. Some people have little kids at home and can't leave their jobs. So if I have to spend $5000 to beat the odds via my relocation chart in Inner Mongolia, or could spend that $5000 ameliorating my current circumstances implied by my solar return chart or even give the money to charity, I think that's a better use of my money.
But hey, if people can afford to be astrology tourists, it's their decision.
(4) I don't call this "fate." I call it "biology."
(5) And the point here is....? If I gave you 10 anonymous charts of architects and 10 anonymous charts of people in other professions, could you pick out the architects 10/10 times? My son is an architectural designer, BTW, so please tell me what I should be looking for. After you have done this, I am willing to post his chart.
(6) No, it wasn't the Church. You find moral choice in Judaism (Genesis 2, for example,) in some of the Greek philosophers, and in the sacred writings of ancient Egyptians centuries before the advent of Christianity. Christianity drew upon these works. A big criticism of early Christianity by contemporary pagan authors, interestingly, was that it was highly derivative of their mystery cults: there was nothing new in it. I am not a Christian, but I have read the NT several times and to my way of thinking, its system of applied ethics is still commendable.
As an American (and dual citizen) I take exception to your over-generalizations. I was raised by secular Protestant parents and they never took me to church. I think you mean the southern evangelical groups. Most Americans report to polls that the believe in God, but less than half are regular church-goers. But American-bashing is ever popular among people unfamiliar with the nation's diversity.
(7) In the Hebrew Bible and rabbinical literature, there are many names for God. Most of them are nouns. Starting with
Elohim.
(8) This is a mis-reading of many modern astrologies. I am trying to think of any that say, "You can have it all." Have you got an example?
(9)
The outer planets certainly cast light!! How else could they have been detected with the types of telescopes that existed unto the early 20th century? Granted, this is "reflected light", a quality that they share with the planets visible to the naked eye. The "no light" thesis is a misreading of the history of astronomy. The outer planets are really important in my experience; notably Pluto. I am sorry that you have not found them valuable. Some traditional astrologers do.
(10) Neither this thread nor your contribution have been useless. If you thought they were, you would not have wasted your time on them.
smile
