Angular Mars - How does it work?

dd78

Well-known member
I have an angular Mars--it's in my 4th house in Gemini. It's probably not conjunct the IC (away by 8 degrees).

How has it manifested for me? Well, I nest. I don't go out very often. If I do have to get out of the house, it's usually for a purpose, for example, to work, volunteer, to have lunch with my friend, or to run an errand. I really enjoy staying home and using the internet, and sometimes reading. I don't have anything against going out at all, but somehow I just much prefer to stay in. I think this is very true for a Mars in the 4th house, the house of home and family. Mars signals my drive, and my drive is to stay in the house as much as possible :p


My Mars is in my 4th house conjunct IC from Sag. IC in Scorpio.

Well, I train a lot at home, alone.


If I don`t train, I usually read and/or write (conjunct Mercury)

I`m always alone, anyway.
It`s not my choice or wish, however.
I feel ashamed of the fact that I`m always alone and this shame keeps me home alone. :sideways:

In summer I`m more motivated to go out, because I`m really into biking (Mars-Mercury again)
 
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AJ Astrology

Well-known member
[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

I have an angular Mars--it's in my 4th house in Gemini. It's probably not conjunct the IC (away by 8 degrees).

How has it manifested for me? Well, I nest. I don't go out very often. If I do have to get out of the house, it's usually for a purpose, for example, to work, volunteer, to have lunch with my friend, or to run an errand. I really enjoy staying home and using the internet, and sometimes reading. I don't have anything against going out at all, but somehow I just much prefer to stay in. I think this is very true for a Mars in the 4th house, the house of home and family. Mars signals my drive, and my drive is to stay in the house as much as possible :p

Hi wan,

Mars in H4 isn't driving anything. Mars in H4 hinders everything.

I have emphasized Mars in 4th house. In a night chart.

It means rather unpleasant things = being subjected to anger and aggression/passive aggression in childhood in various forms, two heavy life-threatening bacterial infections, other people commonly misinterpreting me as bad tempered/aggressive/agitated/in a great hurry etc. [ while my bodily movements are just faster than average]. Just to name a few.
I won`t list more, as my posts are sometimes misinterpreted and, consequently, removed.

Hi dd78,

You're lucky it's a night chart. It would be worse with a day chart. It's not Mars in H4 that results in hostility, it's Mars with Mercury in H4 (joined or not). The square from Saturn doesn't help, especially in your chart because Saturn would have to be in either H1 or H7 to square Mars.
 
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dd78

Well-known member
Hi dd78,

You're lucky it's a night chart. It would be worse with a day chart. It's not Mars in H4 that results in hostility, it's Mars with Mercury in H4 (joined or not). The square from Saturn doesn't help, especially in your chart because Saturn would have to be in either H1 or H7 to square Mars.

Hi AJ,

I`m not lucky.
My Saturn is in 1st house and rising :sad:


I`m not sure if it would be better to have:

1. Saturn conjunct AC and rising in a night chart
or
2. Mars conjunct IC in a day chart ?

I guess any solutions to this dilemma would be well beyond this thread.

If there can be any solutions at all...

It`s like in a classical drama: there is no way out of it.
There will be either loss or damage, whatever one`s choice may be :devil:



But I have no choice - I have both of these nasty placements :sad:
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
Hi AJ,

I`m not lucky.
My Saturn is in 1st house and rising :sad:


I`m not sure if it would be better to have:

1. Saturn conjunct AC and rising in a night chart
or
2. Mars conjunct IC in a day chart ?

I guess any solutions to this dilemma would be well beyond this thread.

If there can be any solutions at all...

It`s like in a classical drama: there is no way out of it.
There will be either loss or damage, whatever one`s choice may be :devil:



But I have no choice - I have both of these nasty placements :sad:


Hi dd78,

Like I said, it would be worse if you had Mars H4 in a day chart.

Best case for H4 Mars is night chart with Scorpio H4 Mars in trine with H12 Pisces Jupiter, or H2 Mercury sextile from Virgo or square from H1 Leo Sun.

Trine with Cancer H12 Jupiter or sextile with Capricorn H6 Venus would be no help, but a sextile with Capricorn Saturn might. A H12 Cancer Saturn in trine would probably increase your odds of prison time.
 

vcms

Well-known member
My Cancer Mars conjuncts my ASC and people comment on how nice, clear, soft etc my skin is. I wouldn’t make this deduction about scars even though Aries risings tend to have them.
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
My Cancer Mars conjuncts my ASC and people comment on how nice, clear, soft etc my skin is. I wouldn’t make this deduction about scars even though Aries risings tend to have them.

Hi vcms,

That's not how it works. Whenever reading anything it's important to take the context into consideration. The meanings of words in most languages, especially English, has evolved over time. In modern English, "blemish" has a negative connotation, but that was not true centuries ago.

"Blemish" as used archaically does not mean "scar." It could be a scar, but it could also be freckles, a mole or moles, a birth-mark, a cleft chin and a few other things, none of which are necessarily bad.

Also, it's not necessary to exist at the time of birth. It can be acquired later, as scars often are. I wasn't born with a scar, but I got one when I was 32 and in Iraq a few years back.

So, give it time.
 

dd78

Well-known member
Hi dd78,

Like I said, it would be worse if you had Mars H4 in a day chart.

Hi AJ,
I agree with you - Mars in a day chart tends to be rather more troublesome than in a night chart.
However, it is usually reversed with Saturn . AT least to my best knowledge from reliable sources.

BUt analyzing aspects etc. separately = not in the unique context that a whole chart provides, is rather impractical, IMO.

Why?
Because contextual and functional meanings are more important than basic vocabulary meanings of a given single word. (in case of astrology - of a given planetary picture).
It`s like that in any language and also in astrology.
But when it comes to languages, reliable vocabularies and thesauruses list multiple contextual (and functional, if applies) meanings of a given word and provide examples of correct uses of the word in various sentences (=contexts).

Astrology as such still doesn`t have such a vocabulary, despite the fact that it definitely needs one. IMO.

I don`t want to sound like a teacher etc., but I`m a professional in the field of linguistics and translation studies and how a language (as a code) is built has always been a special interest of mine. :cool:


Best case for H4 Mars is night chart with Scorpio H4 Mars in trine with H12 Pisces Jupiter, or H2 Mercury sextile from Virgo or square from H1 Leo Sun.

Trine with Cancer H12 Jupiter or sextile with Capricorn H6 Venus would be no help, but a sextile with Capricorn Saturn might. A H12 Cancer Saturn in trine would probably increase your odds of prison time.


My Mars is in SAG and applying trine to Jupiter in Leo. The orb of this trine is closer than that of the square to Saturn.

Jupiter loves Mars, receives him in every possible way plus by triplicity, since it`s a night chart.

So it probably mitigates the most negative results of Mars. And at times also provides a silver lining to an otherwise very negative situation. :cool:

But Jupiter in 12th hs is rather hidden and his positive influence only becomes visible in case of emergency, so to speak.


SORRY ARDENTIKA FOR SUCH A LONG DIGRESSION! I hope you don`t mind! :)
 

ardentika

Well-known member
[deleted response to attacking post - Moderator]




dd78, I too have angular Saturn on asc and Mars on DSC!! You wouldn't believe how lucky we are even tho it doesn't seem like that but trust me, those planets are very powerful in an angular house. Despite what all may think Saturn on asc makes amazing people, and tends to protect them a lot. Rejection is God's protection. I've found this to be true over and over again. Mars is still a bit mystery to me tbh, I feel like sometimes it doesn't get enough credit. And no I don't mind long digressions ! Haha. The only thing I mind is people shoving their opinions as the ultimate truth xD
 
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dd78

Well-known member
[deleted response to attacking post - Moderator]




dd78, I too have angular Saturn on asc and Mars on DSC!! You wouldn't believe how lucky we are even tho it doesn't seem like that but trust me, those planets are very powerful in an angular house. Despite what all may think Saturn on asc makes amazing people, and tends to protect them a lot. Rejection is God's protection. I've found this to be true over and over again. Mars is still a bit mystery to me tbh, I feel like sometimes it doesn't get enough credit. And no I don't mind long digressions ! Haha. The only thing I mind is people shoving their opinions as the ultimate truth xD


Thank you, ardentika for your kind words :smile:


I wish I was such an optimist as you are!
Being optimistic makes life so much easier! :lol:

I agree that a malefic may at times produce positive outcomes/events, but usually this malefic influence is either somehow mitigated or not very much pronounced etc..


It`s impossible to say much (if anything) without the whole chart, as there are additional clues and factors that modify the "basic" ( = vocabulary) meaning of a planet.

I think there are endless sets of possible manifestations of an angular Mars, but within a framework of an individual`s life/chart some of them may never apply.

This is why threads like this one provide much useful information for anybody interested in how an angular Mars may manifest. :smile:
 
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ardentika

Well-known member
Thank you, ardentika for your kind words :smile:


I wish I was such an optimist as you are!
Being optimistic makes life so much easier! :lol:

I agree that a malefic may at times produce positive outcomes/events, but usually this malefic influence is either somehow mitigated or not very much pronounced etc..


It`s impossible to say much (if anything) without the whole chart, as there are additional clues and factors that modify the "basic" ( = vocabulary) meaning of a planet.

I think there are endless sets of possible manifestations of an angular Mars, but within a framework of an individual`s life/chart some of them may never apply.

This is why threads like this one provide much useful information for anybody interested in how an angular Mars may manifest. :smile:

I think it's all about perspective. To me unaspected Saturn can be more malefic. Or Saturn in 7th. Such individuals night lack Saturn qualities that are so necessary for decent human beings, hence that would be worse. And I think Saturn and Mars when in hard aspect to each other tend to cancel themselves out. But that's just my own perspective and my own experience. I don't want anyone attacking me again.
I don't follow the traditional astrology malefic benefic thingy. It's too black and white for my taste, and generally bad/good is very human and it's rather subjective. I have Saturn square Jupiter, Jupiter square Mars too! Optimism for me usually comes after hard work xD
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
What's lacking gives way to what one can gain. It may present greater challenges, but greater rewards if what you say about an unaspected Saturn is true. When someone has an immense lack of something, they feel the pressure to basically either sink or swim where its concerned. Perhaps more malefic in a sense, but benefit in others
 

dd78

Well-known member
dd78, I too have angular Saturn on asc and Mars on DSC!!

May I ask in which sign your Saturn/Asc is?

If Saturn produces positive stuff in your life, it`s really good news :smile:

and if anybody attacks you etc., it`s THEIR problem, not yours, IMO :smile:

so I don`t think you have any reason to worry or feel threatened, if you have Saturn on Asc stronger than Mars on Dsc :lol:
They can hit and bang this wall until they`re wrecked :lol:


BTW, I wish Merry Christmas to everyone of you!

Have a joyful, emotionally fulfilling and peaceful time ! :love:
 

ardentika

Well-known member
May I ask in which sign your Saturn/Asc is?

If Saturn produces positive stuff in your life, it`s really good news :smile:

and if anybody attacks you etc., it`s THEIR problem, not yours, IMO :smile:

so I don`t think you have any reason to worry or feel threatened, if you have Saturn on Asc stronger than Mars on Dsc :lol:
They can hit and bang this wall until they`re wrecked :lol:


BTW, I wish Merry Christmas to everyone of you!

Have a joyful, emotionally fulfilling and peaceful time ! :love:

Merry CHristmas indeed! :biggrin:

They are both in Pisces Western, Aquarius Sidereal. The sidereal might explain better why it produces good results because it's exhalted?
In my western chart, as I mentioned already, Saturn is squared but Jupiter(Sag)/Pluto(29 Scorpio, wide orb square) and opposite Mars. Also Saturn is trine venus and sextile sun/mercury.

If you have asked me this 3y ago I'd have said I'm doomed. But the more i grow up the more I see how protective Saturn is. To me, Saturn wants to do things "the right way" even if that means delays and restrictions. Saturn wants to master a specific area and become the best in that field. That often takes time. Saturn may delay A LOT and restrict, but I think the rewards in the end are according. Saturn to me has that "God vibe". You know those sayings "Rejection is God's protection" , that feels very true about saturn.

Also to me, our universe is a mental construct. Life IS about perspective. The more we believe something the more it becomes true. Blame it on my Leo Moon, but I try really hard to be a positive person. Doesn't mean I don't see the challenges that I've been put through, because they are a TON, but they have humbled me and thaught me a lot, so I try to be greateful for everything I have or dont.

When it comes to attacking, that's true, it's their problem. I'm still working on my temper! Haha. I tend to attract aggressive behavior (good and bad) from people, and if I respond to it too much, Saturn gets activated. Saturn is a veeery cold planet, whereas Mars is a hot one. So mars tends to cool off when Saturn wakes up haha. It's very interesting interaction. That's for the opposition tho. I have no idea how the square would work.

To me squares are only painful when we dwell more than necessary in one of the planets. To me squares are a lot about letting go. That's what I've noticed from all the squares I have plus a T-square haha. Whenever I'm stubborn that's when I feel the square like a painful friction, struggles, failure, obstacles. Whenever I let go, and move on to the next planet from the square, it's released, and there is a sense of growth.

A silly plain example, whenever I get too angry, it's mostly because I can't express my hurt/pain or I simply don't want to deal with it. (Mars square pluto) It gets really bad if I don't let go at the right moment because then this anger starts consuming me and forces me to surrender to Pluto energy. It can get painful. If i surrender willingly, Pluto takes over. I just cry it out, feel the pain, and move on with my life and possibly some more emotional baggage ahaha. Or vice versa, if I am too allowing (which I believe pluto can do that in it's depth and wisdom, it can be a victim) Mars kicks in with the warrior suit to say "That's it. No more. We are done here." Or could be saturn, can't tell because of the T-Square.

Sorry for the long rant! It's just my really fluid own perspective of how I feel my own chart and aspects! ^_^
 

dd78

Well-known member
They are both in Pisces Western, Aquarius Sidereal.

opposition can only be possible in opposing signs, asaik? :unsure:

but I have no idea about how Sidereal works, so I can`t say anything.


To me, Saturn wants to do things "the right way" even if that means delays and restrictions. Saturn wants to master a specific area and become the best in that field. That often takes time. Saturn may delay A LOT and restrict, but I think the rewards in the end are according.

To me squares are only painful when we dwell more than necessary in one of the planets. To me squares are a lot about letting go. That's what I've noticed from all the squares I have plus a T-square haha. Whenever I'm stubborn that's when I feel the square like a painful friction, struggles, failure, obstacles. Whenever I let go, and move on to the next planet from the square, it's released, and there is a sense of growth.



I can`t agree more!

Saturn square Mars creates total frustration in my case. It doesn`t even matter if the frustration is caused by external factors ( including the laws of physics or human physiology) or by the somebody else`s will or plans (be it God or higher power or whatever ) which don`t care about the effects of their actions/will on me.

Mars shouts loudly:
"Just do it! I want effects NOW! "

and Saturn says:
"It`s impossible to have effects now, it takes TIME to see any effects of your actions, but if you start NOW and keep going despite feeling discouraged sometimes, you will finally get results you expect. "

I`ve never wanted to accept it, but now I can see that my own impatience leads to my frustration, so I keep myself busy with achieving smaller, partial goals. This approach keeps Mars busy (=happy) and Saturn satisfied by slowing pace and changing sprint into a marathon.



Now my new motto is:
"Ain`t nothing gonna break my stride, I`ve got to keep on moving! " :biggrin:


When it comes to attacking, that's true, it's their problem. I'm still working on my temper! Haha.

Yeah, Anger (Mars) Management (Saturn) is essential :wink:
I`ve always had a problem with my temper, too. :smile:

Sorry for the long rant! It's just my really fluid own perspective of how I feel my own chart and aspects! ^_^

It`s YOUR thread - no apologies needed! :smile:

Besides, any sentence pulled out of context may potentially get misunderstood, so it`s very important to provide a background.
 
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Bunraku

Well-known member
One of my babies is a Scorpio rising with an angular/dignified (yet OOS) Mars on the ASC (by 1 degree). Saturn is also in Scorpio.

She has a scar on her face, done by the hands of another, that is still noticeable today and leaves an indent. And it seems like many of the cuts and injuries are given to her by another, rather than it being by her own doing.

My poor baby. I took her in under my care. I know she's destined for greatness. :love:
 

wan

Well-known member
One of my babies is a Scorpio rising with an angular/dignified (yet OOS) Mars on the ASC (by 1 degree). Saturn is also in Scorpio.

She has a scar on her face, done by the hands of another, that is still noticeable today and leaves an indent. And it seems like many of the cuts and injuries are given to her by another, rather than it being by her own doing.

My poor baby. I took her in under my care. I know she's destined for greatness. :love:

Omg, you are back! I was just looking at your profile and saw that you hadn't been on for 2 years. I thought we lost you for good! You have no idea how happy I am to see you!
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
So what is angular mars? Does it represent where we need to be brave and put on our big girl/boy pants and stand up for ourselves and the things we believe in? I've read in some old traditional and sidereal astrology that with Mars we suffer a lot of losses and separations. I don't see that here. I see only success and achievements.

What do you think?

Hi ardentika,

I think your problem is not knowing the signs.

When you learn the signs, and learn them correctly, you'll know which signs oppose each other, which signs square each other, trine each other and sextile each other.

After you correctly learn the signs, then you can struggle with the concept of "Day" and "Night."

Each body is a Jekyll & Hyde. Diurnal Mars is not even the same thing as Nocturnal Mars. Those are two totally different interpretations.

Beyonce: Fail. Leo Mars is H11 of public honors and not in H10. Even if Mars would be in H10, he would not attack H4 or H7 and Jupiter is sitting in the Ascendant about to be squared by Mars.

Elvis Presley: Fail. Mars is in Libra H11 of public honors just like Bouncie or whatever her name is.

Eminem: Another fail. Mars is in Libra H11 of public honors, just like Elvis and Bouncey.

Kanye West: Another fail. Mars is in Taurus H11 of public honors, just Elvis, Bouncy and M&M.

Are you starting to see a pattern there?

It's like really, really obvious.

Selena Gomez: Finally, a chart where Mars really is H10. Note Fortuna in H10 and Mercury ruling H11 public honors with Venus in the Ascendant. That pretty much tells the story. See benefic Venus in H1 and Jupiter in H2 opposing Pisces H8.

Mozart: Assuming the birth-time is correct, another fail. Mars is Cancer H11 of public honors. This is a nocturnal chart and Mars is in a feminine house and sign as he should be.

Shakira: Mars is exalted in H10 here. See Sun in Aquarius H11 and benefic Venus in the Aries Ascendant.

Celin Dion: Wow, another with Mars actually in H10. Her success is mostly Aries Sun H9 trine Leo Ascendant. Don't forget she had to travel around the world to get noticed.

Robbie Williams: His birth-time is disputed by as much as 2 hours, but it wouldn't change the signs. He as a Scorpio H4 waning Moon opposing Taurus H10 Mars (which is good because waxing Moon is malefic and waning Moon is benefic).


So, 8 charts and you only got the placement of Mars right half the time.

Mars in H11, with few exceptions, is very, very good, as you can see, since 4 of the 8 charts had H11 Mars.

H10 Mars indicates success, but not without difficulties. Nobody handed Celine Dion a recording contract. Her and her husband had to mortgage their home to make her first album. Selena had problems with her agent, her manage, her band, her recording company, but it all worked out in the end.


Barack Obama: Another fail. If Ascendant is Aquarius then Virgo Mars is H8, not H7.

Albert Einsten: Exalted Capricorn Mars in his own term in H7. If you're wondering why he didn't die a violent death and lived a long life, then look at the Cancer Ascendant and find Jupiter. Yes, Jupiter is sitting in H8 (Cancer is Jupiter's sign of exaltation).

Adolf Hitler: Another fail. If Ascendant is Libra then Taurus Mars is H8.

Lady Gaga: Mars is in Capricorn which is H8, not H7.

Tom Cruise: Scorpio Ascendant, so Mars really is in H7, yet he will not die a violent death. If you read Dorotheus, Maternus, Paulus and others, a body will not attack its own sign from the square or opposition. H1 is the house of life and Mars in H7 being in opposition to H1 is attacking it, except when H1 is Aries, Scorpio or Capricorn. There are other saving graces, Fortuna in H1, Jupiter in any sign aspect to Mars, or Jupiter in H8 with his signs (Cancer, Sagittarius or Pisces) on H1. Diurnal/Nocturnal Waning Moon in H1 in any aspect with Jupiter is another.

Natalie Portman: Gemini Mars is H8.

Justin Timberlake: Here's one. Libra Jupiter looking at Aquarius Mars. Aquarius Sun rules Leo Ascendant.

Whitney Huston: Libra Mars is H8.

Isaac Newton and Charlie Chaplin: H7 Taurus Mars will not attack Scorpio H1.

Stephen Hawking: Gemini Jupiter sextiles Aries Mars.



Bill Gates: Maternus and others note that Mars and Mercury together produce criminals of various types. The house/sign they're in and the houses/signs they rule tell the story. Gates might not have been a Ted Bundy, but he was a criminal just the same. He violated numerous state and federal laws for which Microsoft was sued by states and the US government and many foreign governments. Gates violated anti-trust laws and was sued. Reneged on contracts enagiging in fraud (which is why MSDOS never worked right because he stole QDOS and couldn't figure out how QDOS worked). He used immoral and unethical business practices to strong-arm a company and steal Windows from them. Gates violated and was sued several times for patent infringement and copyright infringement. He couldn't figure out how to get the video program to work so he stole 1,000s of lines of code from Apple's video player and used it. He was sued for anti-competitive practices. You see Mercury with Mars in H4. Gate's crimes didn't necessarily carry jail time, but he violated laws nonetheless. He is not a very nice man. So what he gives money to charities. Well, what he didn't steal he cheated to get.


Prince: H1 is Scorpio. Mars in Aries. That makes Mars H6, not H4.

Jim Morrison: Gemini Mars trines the Aquarius Ascendant. That makes Mars H5, not H4.

Will Smith: This chart is nocturnal with Mars in a feminine sign and house. That's the best case scenario for H4 Mars.

Ted Bundy (serial killer): Sagittarius Mars trines the Leo H1. That also makes Mars H5, not H4.

Walt Disney: Capricorn Mars trines Virgo H1 making Mars H5, not H4.

Johnny Depp: Ascendant is Leo. Mars is in Virgo. That makes Mars H2, not H1.

Brad Bitt: Capricorn Mars is H2, not Sagittarius H1.

Megan Fox: Exalted H1 Capricorn Mars moving to trine H5 Sun. I'm not seeing a problem there.

Grace Kelly: Scorpio Mars under Sun's rays. Not really seeing a problem there, either.

Mariah Carey: Taurus Ascendant. Sagittarius Mars is H8.

Bill Clinton: Libra H1 Mars with Venus and Jupiter. H11 Leo Sun. H8 Taurus Moon rules H10. So, what's the problem? H1 Mars typically indicates powerful people.

Ellen DeGeneres: Okay, H1 Sagittarius Mars. With Saturn. I'm not seeing a problem there, either.

So, study the signs so you're not so confused. Then study the signs to learn what they mean: fire, water, air, earth, cardinal, fixed, mutable, animal, human, voiceless, singing, fruitful, barren, dual, feral, etc, etc.

Then learn the difference between day and night, so you can learn how the bodies act differently in the day and at night.
 

dd78

Well-known member
Bill Gates: Maternus and others note that Mars and Mercury together produce criminals of various types. The house/sign they're in and the houses/signs they rule tell the story.

fantastic!
So it makes me a criminal? :alien:
I`m interested in criminology, forensic science, investigation methods, and my favorite - forensic medicine etc., and I truly loath criminals.
Especially those deranged and manipulative like Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Jim Jones etc. They remind me who I was dealing with, unaware of the danger.

I would rather commit a crime against my own life, than any other.

I was a victim of multiple crimes against me, my child and my possessions, but I have no chance to even start any court case, not to mention winning any. :devil:

The laws in my country just aren`t on my side :sad:
 

dd78

Well-known member
Maternus and others note that Mars and Mercury together produce criminals of various types. The house/sign they're in and the houses/signs they rule tell the story.

Could you provide a link to these resources?

I`d like to read it myself.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
AJ, I appreciate the info, however I took out my information from astrotheme, they have aspect/position search bar. So all I did was typed mars in the following houses and got presented with results, so perhaps take it to their website ?

I am very familiar with each sign, the problem you might have is that I don't go by traditional astrology . It's not something I fully resonate with. It's easy somehow to interpret when the life has already happened and certain events have taken place, but prediction wise it just doesn't work for me.

I'm more into the psychological astrology, which I know gets a lot of backlash but oh well. I just don't think it's possible to predict how a certain aspect will play out in someone's life until it happens. I've seen many people fail with no squares or a few and many trines.
 
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