And mediums are always believers in evolution, being in constant contact with such ''evolving'' spirits of delusion and confusion.
Human existence: the gender of God
- Thread starter CapAquaPis
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And mediums are always believers in evolution, being in constant contact with such ''evolving'' spirits of delusion and confusion.
leomoon
Well-known member
Carl Jung explained Heaven, Hell and Devils (Satan) this way:
There are hellish webs of words, only words, but what are words? Be tentative with words, value them well, take safe words, words without catches, do not spin them with one another so that no webs arise, for you are the first who is ensnared in them. ~Carl Jung, Liber Novus, Page 300.
Just as Christ was crucified between the two thieves, our lowest lies on either side of our way. And just as one thief went to Hell and the other rose up to Heaven, the lowest in us will be sundered in two halves on the day of our judgment. ~Carl Jung, Liber Novus, Page 300.
If you want to go to heaven, your feet will grow into hell. ~Carl Jung, Cornwall Seminar, Page 12.
Satan unlike Christ, was created, not begotten. When I create I am free and not dependent. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 48.
And the "Shadow" (Black Moon?)
When Christ withstood Satan’s temptation, that was the fatal moment when the shadow was cut off. Yet it had to be cut off in order to enable man to become morally conscious. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 163-174
Indians have no thoughts that would prevent consciousness from functioning, no devils that could devastate consciousness. ~Carl Jung, Children’s Dreams, Page 409.
This disbelief in the devilishness of human nature goes hand in hand with the blank incomprehension of religion and its meaning. ~Carl Jung, CW 5, Para 106
I like these too:
If ever you have the rare opportunity to speak with the devil, then do not forget to confront him in all seriousness. He is your devil after all. ~Carl Jung, Liber Novus, Page 261
Just as evening gives birth to morning, so from the darkness arises a new light, the stella matutina, which is at once the evening and the morning star— Lucifer, the light-bringer. ~Carl Jung, CW 13, Para 299
But at least he [Socrates] has shown us the one precious thing: “To hell with the Ego-world! Listen to the voice of your daimonion. It has a say now, not you.” ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 531-533
The Bible says, “Whosoever shall say “Racha” to his brother is guilty of hellfire.” If we substitute “shadow” for “brother” and implicate the dark brother within, we open out this biblical word into new perspectives. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 25.
The God-image in man was not destroyed by the Fall but was only damaged and corrupted (‘deformed’), and can be restored through God’s grace. The scope of the integration is suggested by the descent of Christ’s soul to hell, its work of redemption embracing even the dead. The psychological equivalent of this is the integration of the collective unconscious which forms an essential part of the individuation process. ~Carl Jung; Aion; Page 39; Para 72.
It was from the spirit of alchemy that Goethe wrought the figure of the “superman” Faust, and this superman led Nietzsche’s Zarathustra to declare that God was dead and to proclaim the will to give birth to the superman, to “create a god for yourself out of your seven devils.” ~Carl Jung, CW 13, Para 163.
more here:
https://carljungdepthpsychologysite...r-satan-and-the-devil-anthology/#.Xn1JN2B7nQw
There are hellish webs of words, only words, but what are words? Be tentative with words, value them well, take safe words, words without catches, do not spin them with one another so that no webs arise, for you are the first who is ensnared in them. ~Carl Jung, Liber Novus, Page 300.
Just as Christ was crucified between the two thieves, our lowest lies on either side of our way. And just as one thief went to Hell and the other rose up to Heaven, the lowest in us will be sundered in two halves on the day of our judgment. ~Carl Jung, Liber Novus, Page 300.
If you want to go to heaven, your feet will grow into hell. ~Carl Jung, Cornwall Seminar, Page 12.
Satan unlike Christ, was created, not begotten. When I create I am free and not dependent. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 48.
And the "Shadow" (Black Moon?)
When Christ withstood Satan’s temptation, that was the fatal moment when the shadow was cut off. Yet it had to be cut off in order to enable man to become morally conscious. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 163-174
Indians have no thoughts that would prevent consciousness from functioning, no devils that could devastate consciousness. ~Carl Jung, Children’s Dreams, Page 409.
This disbelief in the devilishness of human nature goes hand in hand with the blank incomprehension of religion and its meaning. ~Carl Jung, CW 5, Para 106
I like these too:
If ever you have the rare opportunity to speak with the devil, then do not forget to confront him in all seriousness. He is your devil after all. ~Carl Jung, Liber Novus, Page 261
Just as evening gives birth to morning, so from the darkness arises a new light, the stella matutina, which is at once the evening and the morning star— Lucifer, the light-bringer. ~Carl Jung, CW 13, Para 299
But at least he [Socrates] has shown us the one precious thing: “To hell with the Ego-world! Listen to the voice of your daimonion. It has a say now, not you.” ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 531-533
The Bible says, “Whosoever shall say “Racha” to his brother is guilty of hellfire.” If we substitute “shadow” for “brother” and implicate the dark brother within, we open out this biblical word into new perspectives. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 25.
The God-image in man was not destroyed by the Fall but was only damaged and corrupted (‘deformed’), and can be restored through God’s grace. The scope of the integration is suggested by the descent of Christ’s soul to hell, its work of redemption embracing even the dead. The psychological equivalent of this is the integration of the collective unconscious which forms an essential part of the individuation process. ~Carl Jung; Aion; Page 39; Para 72.
It was from the spirit of alchemy that Goethe wrought the figure of the “superman” Faust, and this superman led Nietzsche’s Zarathustra to declare that God was dead and to proclaim the will to give birth to the superman, to “create a god for yourself out of your seven devils.” ~Carl Jung, CW 13, Para 163.
more here:
https://carljungdepthpsychologysite...r-satan-and-the-devil-anthology/#.Xn1JN2B7nQw
leomoon
Well-known member
I vaugely recalled too that Satan is not a concept in Judaism, that was thought of outside of a man/woman (humankind):
Something like this:
In Judaism "satan" is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.
Satan as a Metaphor for the Yetzer Hara
The Hebrew word "satan" (שָּׂטָן) translates to "adversary" and comes from a Hebrew verb meaning "to oppose" or "to obstruct."
In Jewish thought, one of the things Jews struggle against every day is the "evil inclination," also known as the yetzer hara (יֵצֶר הַרַע, from Genesis 6:5). The yetzer hara is not a force or a being, but rather refers to mankind's innate capacity for doing evil in the world. However, using the term satan to describe this impulse is not very common. On the other hand, the "good inclination" is called the yetzer ha'tov (יצר הטוב).
https://www.learnreligions.com/jewish-view-of-satan-2076775
Somehow, we mistook this concept to become something "outside" of ourselves.
And there we stay with it all these millennia.
Something like this:
In Judaism "satan" is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.
Satan as a Metaphor for the Yetzer Hara
The Hebrew word "satan" (שָּׂטָן) translates to "adversary" and comes from a Hebrew verb meaning "to oppose" or "to obstruct."
In Jewish thought, one of the things Jews struggle against every day is the "evil inclination," also known as the yetzer hara (יֵצֶר הַרַע, from Genesis 6:5). The yetzer hara is not a force or a being, but rather refers to mankind's innate capacity for doing evil in the world. However, using the term satan to describe this impulse is not very common. On the other hand, the "good inclination" is called the yetzer ha'tov (יצר הטוב).
https://www.learnreligions.com/jewish-view-of-satan-2076775
Somehow, we mistook this concept to become something "outside" of ourselves.
And there we stay with it all these millennia.
waybread
Well-known member
As you know, the proper way to do baptism has led to schisms between the Protestant denominations, notably in terms of whether full immersion is required, or whether sprinkling the baby with water suffices.
A mikveh/mikvah (ritual bath) in Judaism has very specific requirements. There is archaeological evidence of a mikvah on Masadah, determined by its meeting those requirements.
Theoretically a natural river like the Jordan River or a lake could meet the requirements. But since one enters the mikveh completely naked, it might take some doing to locate one in nature.
waybread
Well-known member
There are several meanings and requirements for the messiah in Judaism. A simple more ordinary meaning is a liberator, or a great king. No divinity is required.
A Jewish Messiah in a more cosmic sense also doesn't have to be divine, but is expected to accomplish the return of the diaspora Jews to Israel, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, and a new era of world peace.
Since none of these things has happened, Jews maintain that Jesus was not the messiah.
david starling
Well-known member
Isn't there a "Day of Judgment" in the Hebrew scripture , where the dead awake from slumber in the underworld?
You didn't answer my question.
None of these things have to occur for a Messiah to be recognized. Didn't Rabbi Akiva think Bar Kokhba was the Messiah? Don't thousands of Jews today expect the Lubavitcher Rebbe to rise from the dead because he is the Messiah? We believe that Jesus Christ is alive at the right hand of the Father and will soon return in clouds to fulfill all the remaining messianic prophecies.
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''Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.'' - Dan. 12:2
waybread
Well-known member
leomoon, re: your eloquent post #352.
I have not actively practiced Judaism for many years, but when married to my Jewish ex-husband, we were very active in our local Jewish community. We also spent most of one year in Israel. Prior to converting I was required to take a serious conversion class by a Conservative rabbi at the Hillel house at the university where my ex and I were then students. I had to appear in front of a Bet Din, or kind of examining committee of 3 rabbis. One of them was Orthodox. I did the mikveh, both because it is required of a convert and also prior to a wedding. My ex and I practiced a kind of Conservative Judaism, but were not doctrinarians about it.
I have never been Orthodox, a distinction I hope Petosiris is making.
So I hope I am being an accurate spokesperson for Judaism. However, my personal views are more secular.
On Jesus atoning for people's sins, I haven't studied the source of this. However, every Christian denomination has a post-Biblical body of interpretation and doctrine. Something like the Catholic catechism is binding upon Catholics, whereas I imagine there's more flexibility in the teachings of Martin Luther for Lutherans. Some denominations insist upon the trinity, but some don't. Then there are differences in the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed said by Protestants.
Then how does one understand the Bible? Literally word for word? OK, then which translation, as they are not identical. Is the Bible best understood as a work of literature, history, and a code of ethics that are not necessarily binding upon anybody today?
Re: the lines from Isaiah. Christians have taken these to foretell the coming of Jesus. But to Jews, longing for a messiah in the midst of their suffering is completely understandable. This doesn't mean Jesus of Nazereth was the Messiah. For one thing, the Jewish criteria for the Messiah didn't happen with Jesus.
Edgar Cayce wrote from an avowedly Christian perspective, which is not accepted by people of other faiths or no faith. And then there's no way to fact-check a lot of his sayings.
I do agree with the Jewish perspective, that each person has to atone for her/his own sins. One super-human individual does not somehow take away from the need for everyone to live an ethical life. The world did not somehow become more ethical due to Jesus-- except in a very few cases.
I've known a lot of people who go to church. But I can number on my fingers the few whom I think are committed, practicing Christians who truly love their neighbours.
I have not actively practiced Judaism for many years, but when married to my Jewish ex-husband, we were very active in our local Jewish community. We also spent most of one year in Israel. Prior to converting I was required to take a serious conversion class by a Conservative rabbi at the Hillel house at the university where my ex and I were then students. I had to appear in front of a Bet Din, or kind of examining committee of 3 rabbis. One of them was Orthodox. I did the mikveh, both because it is required of a convert and also prior to a wedding. My ex and I practiced a kind of Conservative Judaism, but were not doctrinarians about it.
I have never been Orthodox, a distinction I hope Petosiris is making.
So I hope I am being an accurate spokesperson for Judaism. However, my personal views are more secular.
On Jesus atoning for people's sins, I haven't studied the source of this. However, every Christian denomination has a post-Biblical body of interpretation and doctrine. Something like the Catholic catechism is binding upon Catholics, whereas I imagine there's more flexibility in the teachings of Martin Luther for Lutherans. Some denominations insist upon the trinity, but some don't. Then there are differences in the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed said by Protestants.
Then how does one understand the Bible? Literally word for word? OK, then which translation, as they are not identical. Is the Bible best understood as a work of literature, history, and a code of ethics that are not necessarily binding upon anybody today?
Re: the lines from Isaiah. Christians have taken these to foretell the coming of Jesus. But to Jews, longing for a messiah in the midst of their suffering is completely understandable. This doesn't mean Jesus of Nazereth was the Messiah. For one thing, the Jewish criteria for the Messiah didn't happen with Jesus.
Edgar Cayce wrote from an avowedly Christian perspective, which is not accepted by people of other faiths or no faith. And then there's no way to fact-check a lot of his sayings.
I do agree with the Jewish perspective, that each person has to atone for her/his own sins. One super-human individual does not somehow take away from the need for everyone to live an ethical life. The world did not somehow become more ethical due to Jesus-- except in a very few cases.
I've known a lot of people who go to church. But I can number on my fingers the few whom I think are committed, practicing Christians who truly love their neighbours.
waybread
Well-known member
Satan was not and is not real. He's a work of fiction.
Charles Darwin was very real. He is one of my heroes.
You might ask yourself how it is that church-sponsored universities support biology departments. What doctrines and biblical verses might permit them to maintain their faith while teaching evolution?
waybread
Well-known member
What do you mean by "evolution"?
I thought you meant Darwin's theory of natural selection of plant and animal species.
waybread
Well-known member
leomoon, I think your description of Satan in Jewish belief is basically correct.
First of all, whatever else it may be (scripture, the Word of God, a fable, a history, or.... ) the Bible is a work of literature. Some of it like the Psalms were written as songs or poetry. The Song of Songs is love poetry. The Bible includes parables, meant to instruct but not to be understood as actual facts.
In this context, Satan can be understood from a biblical Jewish perspective. As you put it, the "evil impulse" is distinctively human. The "adversary" is a metaphor from whatever turns people away from God. Maimonides, the great medieval Jewish scholar, thought the book of Job is an allegory or parable.
Of course, Judaism has existed in many different lands for many centuries. Various rabbis thought that Satan and other demons were real, notably in the Kabbalah and chasidism, but this isn't the majority view.
As you point out, humans are capable of all kinds of evil. We don't need to hypothesize a supernatural Satan to explain it.
First of all, whatever else it may be (scripture, the Word of God, a fable, a history, or.... ) the Bible is a work of literature. Some of it like the Psalms were written as songs or poetry. The Song of Songs is love poetry. The Bible includes parables, meant to instruct but not to be understood as actual facts.
In this context, Satan can be understood from a biblical Jewish perspective. As you put it, the "evil impulse" is distinctively human. The "adversary" is a metaphor from whatever turns people away from God. Maimonides, the great medieval Jewish scholar, thought the book of Job is an allegory or parable.
Of course, Judaism has existed in many different lands for many centuries. Various rabbis thought that Satan and other demons were real, notably in the Kabbalah and chasidism, but this isn't the majority view.
As you point out, humans are capable of all kinds of evil. We don't need to hypothesize a supernatural Satan to explain it.
david starling
Well-known member
Well, the N.T. does enable that hypothesis, although it doesn't seem to require it:
In (1 John 12:31) Satan is called the prince of this world, meaning that "worldliness" places one under Satan's control, since the whole world is under his control (1 John 5:19).
In (2 Corinthians 4:4), Satan is called the god of this Age, and is possibly considered a real being, with the power to influence our minds unless we place ourselves under the protection of the Holy Spirit.
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david starling
Well-known member
In the O.T., Satan, meaning "Adversary", convinces God to test Job's devotion. He's not competing with God, or attempting to take over Heaven, as many interpret the N.T.
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That is a lie. No individual has influenced and will influence the world more positively than Jesus of Nazareth.
david starling
Well-known member
It's not a "lie". It's a different view of how and why things have transpired historically since the life and times of Jesus.
I give the major credit to Jesus's mother. She must have raised him right!
And, she had a lot of influence on the ethical treatment of women.
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The sacrifice of Jesus was penal, atoning and substitutionary according to the Scriptures. What isn't true is that Jesus gave an exact satisfaction for the sins of the world (or the elect), rather than propitiation for them. There would be no need for the gospel of repentance otherwise. - Luke 24:46-47. That part of ''Reformed theology'' is a later development, with predestination of the elect ensuring non-universalism.
The OT sacrifices obviously weren't satisfactions or exact payment, or bringing the people to repentance rather than repentant people bringing them as sacrifice (for those sins that could be attoned for, which didn't include sins against each other like theft, hate, murder, adultery etc. as waybread already mentioned). The sacrifice of Jesus was in this way different, in that it can cleanse all intentional and unintentional sin - 1 Cor. 6:9-11.
This true redemption is always followed by following the moral example and teachings of Jesus Christ - 1 Peter 1:18, 1 Peter 2:21, Hebrews 9:14, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 5:26, 2 Corinthians 5:15, Titus 2:12.
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leomoon
Well-known member
I'm so glad to meet another human being, besides my husband & myself, (over 70 years I might add), who says out loud, having been "around the block" so to speak both in church, synagogues, and any other religious study that SATAN is a man made concept. (not sure about g-o-d yet), the jury is still out.
No one can devise like man (his mortal soul) can, the hatred in their hearts and express it outwardly, like humans can. Even the other animals on the earth do not go out purposefully without it being instinctual to kill, main & torture. Only the human animal does this. Sadly, the human animal demoralizes his very immortal soul this way spreading hatred rather then love and acceptable, tolerance & the age old "7 spiritual virtues" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
For me the 7 Virtues are what my life aspired towards nothing else really. Everything else is "outward" stuff.
Marcus Aurelius did not need a church to tell him about the 7 Virtues, and practiced them in his life and managed even in his "time, culture & place" as a Stoic to embrace what was right and holy. He didn't need a priest or a whatever someone other then his own higher conscience we ALL have somewhere inside, whether buried by us or brought to light of day.
Reference: whatisstoicism.com/stoicism-definition/marcus-aurelius-stoic-emperor/
No school, no church, no parent, no friend told me about Marcus Aurelius, I simply took to teaching myself along the way at a young age as open-mindedness is available to ANYONE and does not need prompting other then one's conscience (imo)
This link says it best:
Almost every other piece of literature is a kind of performance—it’s made for the audience. Meditations isn’t. In fact, their original title (Ta eis heauton) roughly translates as To Himself.
https://classicalwisdom.com/philosophy/stoicism/marcus-aurelius-stoicism-and-anger/
When I married, I married a man whose mother was so thoroughly brainwashed within the Billy Graham cult and orthodoxy, sending her son & daughter to "Bible School" on the weekends, when he felt they should have been out playing since "school" was not in session.
Seeing the hypocrisy of actions vs ideals held within the pastor's teachings, just turned him off forever. In a way my mother also came away turned off when during the Great Depression years as a young teen, her grandmother's church did not give them the help or food the family asked for - That was IT for mom, she turned away, much to the chagrin of her Quebec Catholic raised mother. Mom sent us to church, but she herself would never step a foot into except for marriage or funerals,
and seldom, maybe twice in my lifetime.Yet, she sent us to the Catholic school down the street, (not far from Nancy Pelosi's own school and church) although I am 10years her junior)
Mom felt she was taking care of her promises she made to raise her children the best way she knew how, the way she herself was raised.I've mentioned this before, that my 9th house of conception is ruled by Pisces/Jupiter.
Dad was agnostic, and taught us about evolution, never buying into nor attending any church or otherwise. So it was a real eclectic mix we had for which my sister & I were grateful.
I still recall the incense the priests would burn on Sundays and holy days, and the bells that would chime. I miss the Easter services with the wonderful choirs of Alleluia. These things I miss and tried to find it again in the Episcopal church I attended once as mentioned.
Other then that, I don't need nor want their preaching. I believe I put the photo early on in this thread telling Missionaries to PLEASE stop trespassing on my porch and door trying to "save" me.
I KNOW they mean well, but I consider then to be brainwashed. Which reminds me of my daughters., the middle one is VERY literal minded, A Sun Capricorn who shares the birth chart of Congresswoman Katie Porter of Calif. They are what is called "astro-twins".When her paternal grandparents took them to church with them once upon a time, I recall saying to my kids, "be careful, watch out for brainwashing",
....and she told me years and years later, "I thought it was a LITERAL warning, that they'd "wash my brains" when I saw thee room with the bathtub for baptismals and wanted to avoid THAT room!I once visited the Jordan side of what UNESCO decided was worthy of being called the possible Baptismal site of John. Both Israel & Jodan demand that claim for themselves. As the crow flies, not "that" far from the land they are known to have trod and John grew up. Its called "Bethany on the Jordan"....and I had a deja vous moment or two going there. It was a wonderful overall side vacation from Egypt. I wanted desperately to go to Israel in my lifetime, and my husband absolutely was appalled by the idea. He LOVED Egypt immensely however, the people, the culture, the land. I figure, he lived there as a Roman once or twice.
Anyway, I made a DEAL with him, "IF he goes to Egypt with me one year we take a side trip offered for 5 days to Israel - THEN I will go with him the following year to Egypt and take the side trip to Jordan and he can see Petra and the places that his movie hero "Lawrence of Arabia" was filmed" He agreed!
We saw the best sites from both this way. But my fav of all was "Bethany on the Jordan" which was btw, given to us carte blanche, because the tour diverted and instead of 2 days at the Dead Sea overnight there, they gave us this!! Talk about Carl Jung's theory - (fate)
Smelling those tamarisk bushes on the way to the site was a spiritual throw back for me:
https://ww2.odu.edu/~lmusselm/plant/bible/tamarix.php
leomoon
Well-known member
I'd say, considering the numbers of humans who follow Buddhism, Buddha did a hell of a job too!! Lets give credit where credit is due...
In some circles, some of us actually believe Jesus was educated by his travels to both India and Buddhist monks. There are many similarities in their teachings. This would have been during what is called "the Missing Years" from the age he was last seen in the temple (12) to the return after his father Joseph died to Jerusalem, a few years before his death. These ideas were expressed in my Essenes book- (for whoever is interested)
p.s. I loved Nazareth the the children around the globe who created these mosaics for the Church commemorating Mary.
I never bothered visiting the church, preferring my allotted time on tour to just stay in the courtyard with the mosaics. the only church I bothered with was another in a Palestinian town, Bethlehem, - "Church of the Nativity" was interesting as a Byzantine architecture with the tiny doorway. I used my photo here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWC6VRI