interference or aid?
- Thread starter tikana
- Start date
archergirl
Well-known member
Hey Tik,
It depends on what Jupiter is, what his condition is (dignity? detriment? retrograde?), and whether or not Jupiter represents 'someone else' in the situation.
The traditional view is that yes, Jupiter prohibits perfection between the Moon and Saturn. If Jupiter is in dignity, it may represent 'something better on offer' than Saturn, from the Moon's perspective.
Example: I'm getting ready to go out with Joe, but John asks me out at the last minute. John is better-looking and richer than Joe, so I go with John. Something like that.
AG
It depends on what Jupiter is, what his condition is (dignity? detriment? retrograde?), and whether or not Jupiter represents 'someone else' in the situation.
The traditional view is that yes, Jupiter prohibits perfection between the Moon and Saturn. If Jupiter is in dignity, it may represent 'something better on offer' than Saturn, from the Moon's perspective.
Example: I'm getting ready to go out with Joe, but John asks me out at the last minute. John is better-looking and richer than Joe, so I go with John. Something like that.
AG
tikana
Well-known member
Archer
here is the chart
http://tinyurl.com/2wgsm6
the question is will I (my friend) marry X?
this what bugs me about this chart
both significators are peregrine to each other.
part of marriage conj pof moon trines both of them
Mercury ruler of 9th house *marriage ceremonies* sextiles mars ruler of 4th house.
any thoughts, Archer?
danke
Tik
here is the chart
http://tinyurl.com/2wgsm6
the question is will I (my friend) marry X?
this what bugs me about this chart
both significators are peregrine to each other.
part of marriage conj pof moon trines both of them
Mercury ruler of 9th house *marriage ceremonies* sextiles mars ruler of 4th house.
any thoughts, Archer?
danke
Tik
archergirl
Well-known member
Hey Tik,
I think the answer is an unequivocal 'no'. We are looking for an aspect between the 1st and 7th *only*, or a collection or a translation: something that brings them together; forget about the 9th of ceremonies or 4th of endings or whatever.
The Moon has to pass not only a conjunction with Jupiter, but also *Venus*, before reaching Saturn. This is prohibition, plain and simple. There is no reception between the Moon and Saturn: no reception, no interest.
The Moon has *passed* a trine with POF; it isn't applying. The POF represents what the *querent* values: in this case, she values 'marriage'. The Moon *might* have been interested at one time, but isn't now.
Jupiter rules the 3rd and the 12th and is in the 11th. Perhaps a 'friend' who gives the Moon person some damaging information about the querent? In any case, whatever or whoever Jupiter is, prevents the perfection.
All things considered, the answer is still a 'no'.
AG
I think the answer is an unequivocal 'no'. We are looking for an aspect between the 1st and 7th *only*, or a collection or a translation: something that brings them together; forget about the 9th of ceremonies or 4th of endings or whatever.
The Moon has to pass not only a conjunction with Jupiter, but also *Venus*, before reaching Saturn. This is prohibition, plain and simple. There is no reception between the Moon and Saturn: no reception, no interest.
The Moon has *passed* a trine with POF; it isn't applying. The POF represents what the *querent* values: in this case, she values 'marriage'. The Moon *might* have been interested at one time, but isn't now.
Jupiter rules the 3rd and the 12th and is in the 11th. Perhaps a 'friend' who gives the Moon person some damaging information about the querent? In any case, whatever or whoever Jupiter is, prevents the perfection.
All things considered, the answer is still a 'no'.
AG
tikana
Well-known member
Interesting update
I dont think it is 1/7th house
it is 1/5 issue cause technically speaking they are not even dating.. she is interested in him.
from what i understand, he is interested in her
i do not see reception between them at all if we use 1/7th
how can soemone ask about a marriage if there is no relaitonship? wouldnt this be invalid chart?
logically speaking?
Tik
I dont think it is 1/7th house
it is 1/5 issue cause technically speaking they are not even dating.. she is interested in him.
from what i understand, he is interested in her
i do not see reception between them at all if we use 1/7th
how can soemone ask about a marriage if there is no relaitonship? wouldnt this be invalid chart?
logically speaking?
Tik
tikana said:
I think that since she asked about marriage this is a 1/7 question. It doesn't matter that they are not even dating. She must have thought of him as a potential marriage partner, therefore she asked the question.
I would have used the fifth if she asked about sex or about a date.
I don't think the chart is invalid because of this reason.
Other considerations about this chart:
Moon at the bendings= no
Moon slow = no
Significators are peregrine= none of them will take any concrete steps to start dating.
archergirl
Well-known member
But Tik, the question is about marriage, not just getting naked with someone, so the question is a 7th house one, not a 5th! Any other coincidences you find...they are happenstance.
And anyhow, even if the question was 'Will I be getting naked with the guy?', it would *still* be a 7th house query. We are talking about a relationship between two people, the querent and the quesited, and in any question about a relationship, any relationship (beyond those of master/servant or friendship, which would be 6th house or 11th house respectively), between two people is given to the 1st and 7th. Especially if the question is marriage.
The only 'people' who are given to the 5th are children, and I am assuming the querent is not asking about marrying a child. If he's an adult, he's the 7th. What she might want to *do* with him, might be found in the 5th, but it is never used to signify the other party. We have to remember the difference between the form and the function. The 7th is form. The 5th, from the 'romantic' perspective, is function only.
AG
And anyhow, even if the question was 'Will I be getting naked with the guy?', it would *still* be a 7th house query. We are talking about a relationship between two people, the querent and the quesited, and in any question about a relationship, any relationship (beyond those of master/servant or friendship, which would be 6th house or 11th house respectively), between two people is given to the 1st and 7th. Especially if the question is marriage.
The only 'people' who are given to the 5th are children, and I am assuming the querent is not asking about marrying a child.
If he's an adult, he's the 7th. What she might want to *do* with him, might be found in the 5th, but it is never used to signify the other party. We have to remember the difference between the form and the function. The 7th is form. The 5th, from the 'romantic' perspective, is function only. AG
starlink
Well-known member
Hello AG, just a question about the prohibition. I thought maybe, because Jupiter and Venus are both the most beneficial planets, these two would not be such an impediment. Could it not mean that the Moon is going through two lucky phases before getting to Saturn? Jupiter retro maybe making her think really deep about this relationship before jumping any further? Just a thought! Does Lilly maybe comment anywhere in his book about Jupiter and Venus being able to obstruct?
starlink
Well-known member
Hi Tik, where did you read that then? I do know that if a chart should maybe NOT be read because of whatever empeding it, then, there is an exception when a personal planet from the Natal chart, conjuncts the Asc. of the Horary chart or when a very important planet (like Sun, Moon, ruler Asc. and so on) should make an exact good aspect with the horary Ascendant. So I guess that is what you mean by the Horary Asc. falling on a natal planet, but falling in a natal house to do with the question maybe only shows that the querent is in love or that the question is about love, nothing else. It does not make that house the house of the quisited, namely that she asked for marriage. But this thing with Jupiter and Venus is still on my mind really.
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tikana
Well-known member
Starlink..
I think Anthony Louis mentioned that you should test the chart before you judge it....
Didnt i post judging radical charts in horaries ages ago?
EUREKA!
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5279&highlight=ascendant+hour
1. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant are the same planet;
ruler of the hour is SUN ...
ruler of asce is saturn
2. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant triplicity are the same
Ruler of hour Sun
ruler of triplicity moon
planet;
3. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant are of the same
ruler of hour - sun
ruler of asce saturn
nature. (Not, as has been said, the ruler of the hour and the ascending sign.)
If there is no accord by these three methods, then the chart is not radical: it is unsuitable for
judgement. .
Tik
I think Anthony Louis mentioned that you should test the chart before you judge it....
Didnt i post judging radical charts in horaries ages ago?
EUREKA!
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5279&highlight=ascendant+hour
1. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant are the same planet;
ruler of the hour is SUN ...
ruler of asce is saturn
2. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant triplicity are the same
Ruler of hour Sun
ruler of triplicity moon
planet;
3. that the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the Ascendant are of the same
ruler of hour - sun
ruler of asce saturn
nature. (Not, as has been said, the ruler of the hour and the ascending sign.)
If there is no accord by these three methods, then the chart is not radical: it is unsuitable for
judgement. .
Tik
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starlink
Well-known member
Thanks a lot Tik for giving the link again. Yes, that was a while ago. I must admit that I do not always look at the lord of the hour. If I get a Leo lady asking a question and the Asc. should turn out to be Leo, than that is already enough for me. I do use it when a chart has a very early or late Ascendant. Then I want to know more and look at the lord of the hour etc.
tikana
Well-known member
Starlink
i will go on my gut feeling on this
this chart is just unreadable or i am missing a piece
it doesnt describe anything remotely possible to reality
Jupiter naturally rules 9thhouse ceremonies. It is retro. Moon is about to conjunct it. He is going back to it. Meaning that since there was a question of "i want to marry you" on the table once before.
WAIT A second
here is a question how much orb do you allow for antiscia?
Saturn is going back to antiscia with mars!
ohh my god why am i so blind?
look at this
Moon inconjuncts Merc, ruler of 9th *ceremonies* it does not leave desc orb AT ALL!
Merc is combust and weakened HA!
Venus conj Saturn in 8th venus rules 5th house.
Okay i am overturning this to say THEY WILL get married because they will have a kid on a way!
Tik
obsessve scorpio!
i will go on my gut feeling on this
this chart is just unreadable or i am missing a piece
it doesnt describe anything remotely possible to reality
Jupiter naturally rules 9thhouse ceremonies. It is retro. Moon is about to conjunct it. He is going back to it. Meaning that since there was a question of "i want to marry you" on the table once before.
WAIT A second
here is a question how much orb do you allow for antiscia?
Saturn is going back to antiscia with mars!
ohh my god why am i so blind?
look at this
Moon inconjuncts Merc, ruler of 9th *ceremonies* it does not leave desc orb AT ALL!
Merc is combust and weakened HA!
Venus conj Saturn in 8th venus rules 5th house.
Okay i am overturning this to say THEY WILL get married because they will have a kid on a way!
Tik
obsessve scorpio!
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