Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Whoam1

Well-known member
I use the Chara Atmakaraka as the AC, the 9th harmonic I believe it is, while the highest degree planet changes between my tropical and sidereal charts the sign that the Atmakaraka is in does not. This prevents a flat character in my chart and tells more about me in both charts and my life events than the birth time rising sign. It's about 6 degrees away from my rising in my sidereal chart (the one I use more) puts my AC in Scorpio one lord is in Scorpio (Pluto) and one lord (Mars) is in Capricorn, which gives me characteristics that my birth time tropical rising (capricorn) gives me. Everything is connected and there's more than one way of getting to the same or similar conclusion, just food for thought.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I can explain the method, but I claim with certainty it is useless. Any rectification method to find the rising sign based on calculations is doomed to fail from the start.
The only way to rectify the rising sign is based on real life events and personality and maybe physiognomy. Rectification is a difficult business.

Now there are a few methods to find the rising degree in Valens, one is by Thrasyllus, another one involves conception chart, which is from where the tritutine method derives. I claim with certainty those are also circulatory, useless, illogical and impossible, especially those where you calculate the conception time with only a rising sign.

You must realise that if you calculate a conception time based on the rising sign, you automatically claim a rising degree for all nativities that have the same rising sign at the time. Those who use those methods just deceive themselves.

If the conception time was not based on the chart with a rising sign, and was instead measured in real life, it is possible there might be some correlation.

Also there are twins that are conceived at different times. Not to mention that earlier than 7 month birth births are possible today, which is not accounted in the ancient sources.

Otherwise, rectification by calculation is impossible or just a simple guess, as I have demonstrated. A popular degree rectification method is to take a primary directions event and rectify it to the minute. You can quickly spot the astrologers who do this by claims of exact birth times to the milisecond, as if there was a stopwatch at the nativity.



The graph shows mostly raman-like, a few lahiri, a few aldebaran and a few tropical. Can we really say what ayanamsha they used based on their calculations that are on average -+5 wrong? I have tested quite a few charts in Valens and different charts agree with different ayanamshas better. Very few, but there are some that work only with tropical for example. I would rather take their statements of fixed star placement, which is not prone to calculation errors (not really, but less likely, for example all tropical fixed star placements in Hellenistic astrology are wrong, because of erroneous rate of precession, but not due to wrong tables - i.e. proposed Stobart tables for Valens' charts). Manilius and Valens say the Pleaides rise at the 6th (remember ordinal) degree of Taurus. That is not possible in Lahiri or Raman. Also the latter put Regulus in the Venus bound of Leo, which is contrary to the delineation given in Valens of the Jupiter bound which extends from the 1 to the 6th degree of Leo.

Let's be careful in assigning 20th century Indian zodiacs to Hellenistic astrologers.
There is one zodiac, however, that is ancient and agrees with the fixed star placement by Manilius and Valens
also it is the source of both System A and System B, of rising times, of tables
and a large part of Hellenistic astronomy in general.
This is the Babylonian zodiac.


(Note that taking Theon's formula for granted, produces Raman-like ayanamsha.
However, I strongly doubt that the mentioned formula was used by all Hellenistic astrologers.
Notice also that the equinox was not at 8 Aries in 158BC, as he claims,
rather it is at 6 Aries instead, which if taken into account with the fixed star longitudes
implies a Babylonian zodiac, which is certainly the most plausible case.)


Ancient Astrology. The Babylonian Fixed Zodiac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-fD0sxYxk&t=3713s
Siderial Astrology. The Actual Constellations :smile:
 

petosiris

Banned
Ancient Astrology. The Babylonian Fixed Zodiac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-fD0sxYxk&t=3713s
Siderial Astrology. The Actual Constellations :smile:

Btw, I corrected a quoted part in that statement (I got confused with Aldebaran longitude), as Theon actually implies a zodiac that is close to modern Raman, my mistake sorry. System A and System B come from Babylonia, but why Theon says 158 BC is still a mystery to me...

Fixed stars longitudes from Manilius and Valens imply a Babylonian zodiac too. But maybe they were confused with wrong equinox and precession rate or something. This is just as confusing as the tropical-sidereal debate, because here they also make statements or calculations that are true in both...
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Btw, I corrected a quoted part in that statement (I got confused with Aldebaran longitude)
as Theon actually implies a zodiac that is close to modern Raman, my mistake sorry.
System A and System B come from Babylonia
but why Theon says 158 BC is still a mystery to me...

Fixed stars longitudes from Manilius and Valens imply a Babylonian zodiac too.
But maybe they were confused with wrong equinox and precession rate or something.
This is just as confusing as the tropical-sidereal debate, because
they actually make statements or calculations that are true in both...
Valens also was keen to pass on the astrology of his predecessors
more than three hundred years before his time
so he copied without changing anything
from those ancient texts he had access to at that time
those texts are now lost
and all we have is Valens record of them

unlike Ptolemy Valens did not alter the information
what Valens did
was to state whether or not he agreed or disagreed
based on his own experience as a practising astrologer

Valens includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes
of Valens' clients or associates, including his own
which is used as an example many times throughout the work
the work also includes tables and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians.

There are however many ancient texts that remain untranslated
Scholars such as Benjamin Dykes continue their translation work
and more clarification may be unearthed

Rumen Kolev translates Mesopotamian documents :smile:
and his work is unique today amongst astrologers
although many are now learning from him
 

petosiris

Banned
Btw, I corrected a quoted part in that statement (I got confused with Aldebaran longitude), as Theon actually implies a zodiac that is close to modern Raman, my mistake sorry. System A and System B come from Babylonia, but why Theon says 158 BC is still a mystery to me...

Fixed stars longitudes from Manilius and Valens imply a Babylonian zodiac too. But maybe they were confused with wrong equinox and precession rate or something. This is just as confusing as the tropical-sidereal debate, because here they also make statements or calculations that are true in both...

Also, further complicated by the statement that some used Aries 10 VP. Manilius is one who used that VP. He probably also used some substraction, but what amount is a guess. And tropicalists have very early degrees (a few degrees earlier than true tropical longitudes for fixed stars, i.e. Hephaistio placing Aldebaran at 15 Taurus). Is that also an argument for earlier ayanamsha (like even earlier than Babylonian)? I don't think the question can be fully and satisfactory resolved with the available information.
 
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