Origins of psychological astrology?

waybread

Well-known member
Inline, can you cite the source? If I have it, I will look it up. The psychological astrology books in my collection do have a sort of cookbook astrology of the moon in signs, yet some of them are so different from one another that it is hard to imagine how siblings could be talking about the same woman. (For example, see her "mothers and matriarchy" chapter in The Luminaries.)

I found Greene's work helpful, as well, when I was younger.

JA, thanks for repeatedly pointing out that someone calling himself a psychological astrologer need have no qualifications whatsoever in psychology. For that matter, he need have no expertise whatsoever in astrology. Indeed, he could be woefully ignorant of anything to do with psychology and still call him self a psychological astrologer. That should tell us something.

Caveat emptor.

And modern astrology does not need the label. There is all kinds of good modern astrology out there that isn't psychological and doesn't claim to be.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
KnS, are you serious about the question???? Most of what's out there isn't explicitly psychological. Some modern astrologers specialize in particular methods (such as horary,) or topics such as medical, financial, or vocational astrology.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
I was encouraging you to list some for the topic of conversation and so that other readers who are interested in modern astrology, but maybe not psychological (since we've talked smack about it for 60 some odd posts) could have something else to look into...

Modern astrology was invented as a tool of character delineation that has been easily applied to the pseudo-psychological work of some individuals, but which has difficulty translating into other types of work. So, I guess the question is something more like "In what other ways or fields besides psychology is modern astrology being employed?" and "What makes it modern astrology?"
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
At first I was incredulous that Kai would ask the question, but then I remembered that while I own a number of traditional astrology texts, I rarely look at them. It might be the same for him when it comes to modern astrology.

But, for me, unless there is a specific psychological bent, such as psycho-analytic psychology, that has an actual personality theory attached to it, i don't consider just because it was written after 1930, that its psychological.

This excludes anything by Greene who is rather Jungian. It excludes anything by Noel Tyl after his multi-volume set, which is psycho-analystic.

So here is a list:

1. First of all, all of Ivy Goldstein Jacobson is Modern with no reference to any theory of psychology of personality:

IN THE BEGINNING ASTROLOGY
DARK MOON LILITH
THE WAY OF ASTROLOGY
FOUNDATION OF THE ASTROLOGICAL CHART
ASTROLOGICAL ESSAYS
HERE AND THERE IN ASTROLOGY
ALLOVER THE EATHER ASTROLOGICALLY
FRON OUTER SPACE TO PLANET EARTH

2. Almost anything by Rob Hand, PhD Such as PLANETS IN TRANSIT

3. Robert Pelletier's PLANETS IN ASPECT

4. RELATIONSHIP ANALYSIS by Robert P. Blaschke,

5. THE ASTROLOGY OF HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS by Frances Sakonian and Louis Acker.

6. PREDICTING EVENTS WITH ASTROLOGY by Celeste Teal

7. IDENTIFYING PLANETARY TRIGGERS by Celeste Teal

8. SECONDARY PROGRESSIONS by Nancy Hastings,

9. PROGRESSIONS IN ACTION by Doris Chase Doan,

10. PROGRESSIONS by Robert P. Blaschke(especially for
Minor and Tertiary Progressions),

11. DELINEATION OF PROGRESSIONS by Sophia Mason

12. HOLOGRAPHIC TRANSITS by Robert Blaschke,

13. Forecasting Using
the 45 Degree Graphic Ephemeris by Reinhold Ebertin,

14. THE PRACTICE OF PREDICTION by Nancy Hastings,

15. TRANSITS by Betty Lunstead,
Primary Directions:

16. Midpoint pictures: COSI(Combination of Stellar Influences) by Reinhold Ebertin,

17. PLANETARY CONTAINMENTS by Sandbach & Ballard,

18. SUN SIGN-MOON SIGN by Charles and Suzi Harvey

------

I could go on. While anything written in the 19th and 20th century may have a psychological flavor, in my mind it cannot be called a psychological astrology textbook unless the author clearly has a bent of a certain PERSONALITY THEORY. Personalities theorists include Freud, Jung, Horney, and others of their ilk. For a list of 18: http://drdianehamilton.wordpress.co...rsonality-theorists-including-freud-and-more/

'….Robert Hand is one of the world's leading
and most esteemed astrologers and historians
:smile:

Born New Jersey December 1942, he began his work in astrology at the age of 17.
His father, Wilfred Hand pioneered in the study of the applications of astronomical cycles to financial markets
in the 1950's and early 60's.
Rob learned the basics of casting charts from his father
and has been a student of astrology since 1960
and a full-time professional astrologer since 1972

known in his early career
as the first practicing astrologer
to write astrology programs for microcomputers.


During a podcast with Chris Brennan, Rob Hand explains that
PLANETS IN TRANSIT was written originally as a computer program
.....'
http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/12/09/robert-hand-reconciling-modern-traditional-astrology/


'…..Hand founded Astro-Graphics Services in 1979, later Astrolabe.
Hand taught high school Chemistry and History and is a graduate of Brandeis University
and The Catholic University of America.
Robert Hand is the foremost expert in Military Astrology in Late Medieval Italy.
Mr. Hand is current Chairman of the Board for Kepler College.
and former Chairman of the National Council of Geocosmic Research,
He lectures in Webinars, conferences, seminars, and workshops worldwide.
1997 he co-founded Arhat Media, a research archive and publishing company
to procure, protect, publish historical astrological/related manuscripts.....'


Robert Hand offers professional astrological media and services to other astrologers
and to general public,
using tropical, heliocentric, sidereal, Uranian, cosmobiological, Astrological Mapping
and in mundo techniques with ancient, medieval and modern methods
.
http://www.arhatmedia.com/libraries.html
 

waybread

Well-known member
Good list, Zarathu!--

I really like the early books by Robert Hand (Planets in Youth, Planets in Transit, Planets in Composite, Horoscope Symbols; and Steven Forrest (The Inner Sky, The Changing Sky.) Hand gets a wee bit psychoanalytic in his introductory material in his early books (which were entirely in the modern astrology idiom,)but his heart doesn't seem to be in it. Forrest's early books are wise and funny. I also like the books he wrote with Jodie Forrest (Skymates, 2 vols.) on synastry; and her book on The Ascendant.

Another good modern astrologer is Stephen Arroyo. He actually has a M. A. in psychology; but thankfully a lot of his material, like Hand's and the Forrests', is just basic insightful common sense. Same with Karen Hamaker-Zondag. Noel Tyl is a prolific author and his early work (like his 12-volume overview of astrology) was not notably psychological.

There are many modern authors slightly less well known than them who published on specific topics. (See, for example, Erin Sullivan on retrograde planets and family patterns.)

As I indicated above, oftentimes when astrologers claim to be doing something with psychology, they more closely follow the work of Joseph Campbell, who was a professor of literature (esp. Sanskrit,) at a women's liberal arts college, not a psychologist. He extensively studied cross-cultural plot lines and archetypes.

KnS, a major branch of modern astrology that I forgot to mention is spiritual astrology. This runs a huge gamut, from karmic past-lives astrology to theosophy to Christianity. Major names in this area would be Dane Rudhyar (whose "psychology" is of the theosophical humanistic variety,) Isabel Hickey, Alan Oken (a student of Alice Bailey,) and even Edgar Cayce.

Modern astrology absolutely did not get its start with Greene an "psychological astrology" but with the theosophical movement in the late 19th/early 20th century, through authors like Alan Leo, Marc Edmund Jones, and C. E. O. Carter. Any psychology that you find in their books is of a pretty low-order sort. The theosophical movement itself had its basis in the romantic movement that swept Europe in the mid-19th century; with its fascination with antique esoteric lore. A major group was the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

On the history of both traditional and modern western astrology, see Nicholas Campion's 2 volume work: The Dawn of Astrology and A History of Western Astrology.

And the above barely scratches the surface of modern astrology, if you're interested in midpoints, harmonics, fixed stars, asteroids or Sabian symbols, there is a lot more out there.

In the psychological astrology department, however, I would like to recommend Alice O. Howell, a Jungian astrologer. I would classify her work more on the spiritual side of modern astrology, however.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
I was encouraging you to list some for the topic of conversation and so that other readers who are interested in modern astrology, but maybe not psychological (since we've talked smack about it for 60 some odd posts) could have something else to look into...

Modern astrology was invented as a tool of character delineation that has been easily applied to the pseudo-psychological work of some individuals, but which has difficulty translating into other types of work. So, I guess the question is something more like "In what other ways or fields besides psychology is modern astrology being employed?" and "What makes it modern astrology?"

I hope the sources that Zarathu and I posted will be enough to get you started!

At its core, modern astrology began as a simplification of traditional astrology and as a more spiritual endeavour; although this phase didn't last long. One type of simplification was doing away with most of the essential and accidental dignities (although this varies by author,) and inclusion of the modern outer planets (although some trads use them, too.)

The focus is pretty much on planets in signs, houses, and in aspect. Although the focus was on the explication of the individual personality, initially a lot of it appears more like traditional astrology.

For example, here is Alan Leo, 1903, How to Judge a Nativity, p. 127, on the sun in Pisces in the first house:

"Short stature, somewhat corpulent, round visage, complexion moderately good, light brown hair, fond of games and sports of a harmless innocent nature, fond of the opposite sex and rather improvident. Hospitable and kind to dumb animals. Generally good swimmers and always fond of the water. Somewhat religious minded."

Although the interpretations of the sun in the first varies in Vettius Valens (2nd century CE) and Firmicus Maternus (4th century CE) the style actually doesn't seem all that different to me.

Where you get a big shift towards looking into psychology is in the more spiritually-inclined modern astrologers like Dane Rudhyar. He dedicated The Astrology of Personality (1936) to mystic and channeler Alice Bailey. Chapter 2 is titled "Astrology and Analytical Psychology." But if you read this chapter closely, what excites Rudhyar is Carl Jung's exploration of topics that were previously the purview of humanists and occultists, such as the I Ching; plus Jung's theory of synchronicity. Rudhyar took the latter as an opening for astrology, in which timing is crucial.

Rudhyar (p. 82) identified 3 types of psychology: (1) spiritual, "which is a branch of philosophy or religion"; (2) physiological, which deals with sensory perception, emotions, and thoughts-- what today might be called behavioural science; and (3) analytical astrology (consciousness and relationship between parts of the psyche [sic].) #3 deals holistically with "the psychic life of man." He then contrasts views of the unconscious proposed by Freud and Jung; with Jung triumphant.

He goes on in this vein. But mostly what Rudhyar is after is a theory of the individual going through a sequence of Enlightenment by the Zodiac or Enlightenment by House Numbers. Rudhyar's grand project is the Perfectibility of Man. Here he sounds far more like a theosophist than like a psychoanalyst, or even like a practising astrologer. For good measure, he throws in Sabian symbols, Daoism, and numerology alongside what in 1936 passed for psychoanalysis.

Zarathu, I think there's a personality theory in here somewhere. But I read a fair number of charts for people, and usually they have a pretty practical view of life. I don't know that Rudhar's personality theories help much with natal chart interpretation, if that's what we're after.
 

Inline

Well-known member
Inline, can you cite the source? If I have it, I will look it up.

The psychological astrology books in my collection do have a sort of cookbook astrology of the moon in signs, yet some of them are so different from one another that it is hard to imagine how siblings could be talking about the same woman. (For example, see her "mothers and matriarchy" chapter in The Luminaries.)

I found Greene's work helpful, as well, when I was younger.

An interesting example....is Greene discussing the 'compulsive self-interested' mother from the perspective of a neptunian child in: 'Neptune' chapter: 'Psychoanalytic Neptune' pg. 149

... In my opinion, to describe psychological astrology as the modern form of traditional astrology is appropriate, when traditional medicine considers psychoanalysis to be the modern form of medicine in the 20th century...
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
It seems like there's a differentiation between astrology that is considered psychological and that which is based on character analysis. Would you say this is a fair characterization of the different types of modern astrology you're distinguishing between? 1) Psychological 2) Spiritual (Evolutionary, etc) 3) Character analysis?

I'm not sure I agree that psychological and character analysis astrology are really different. One just seems to take itself more seriously than the other.
 

Therese

Well-known member
Zarathu,

I think complexity is one alternative. The other is versatility. In the first case, we turn our attention to the system of astrology and develop it to mirror the complexity of our reality. In the second case, we focus on the person who practices astrology, and demand that they are versatile enough (as a tool) to be able to mediate between the simplicity of form and the multiplicity of meaning that makes a symbol a symbol...

[the post to which this is a reply has been deleted by Zarathu]
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Inline, I found the page and chapter you cite in Liz Greene, 1996, The Astrological Neptune and the Quest for Redemption. It' s in a section called "Fusion and Separation," which starts out talking about Donald Winnicott's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Winnicott theory of the "good enough mother."

To put some cards on the table: I am the mother of two adult children who turned out well by most standards, in terms of career and emotional stability. Both are sun-Virgos, and my daughter's Pisces moon opposes her sun. My son's Scorpio moon sextiles his sun. I am fortunate to have a loving, stable relationship with both of them (their words,) although my daughter and I went through rockier passages than I did with my son. Both of my children left home to attend universities a considerable distance from where I live, with our encouragement, and now live nowhere nearby, so I don't think I qualify as Ms. Smothering Mother. I worked part-time before they were school age in order to spend time with them while keeping a hand in my career.

I have a lot of trouble with Greene's fusion of astrology and psychoanalysis.

When my children were young I knew many other mothers of young children, through play groups, pre-school, religious school, neighbours, and wives of colleagues. These experiences do not rank me with pediatricians, pre-school teachers, or child psychologists, but they did give me a sample of mostly-normal mother-child relationships during the children's early years. Rarely, I saw the over-protective (to me) mother, never the neglectful mother of a young child. Most of the moms and children seemed perfectly OK and loving.

I don't write this to turn attention to myself: rather, as one illustration of why Greene's psychoanalysis may fall short.

Greene notes that Winnicott's theory helpfully turned attention away from "impossible standards of perfection" for mothers. Ultimately "the objective is not parent-bashing." So far, so good.

But on p. 149 (which you cite) we don't learn about the OK Mom, but about the "compulsively self-interested" mother who neglects her "Neptunian" child's emotional needs.

The "Neptunian child" unfortunately could be just about anybody: sun or moon in Pisces? Neptune rising? Neptune squaring, conjuncting, or opposing a personal planet?

Then the "overly 'preoccupied' mother-- the one who cannot relinquish her own fusion with the child--may be portrayed in the child's birth chart by difficult configurations of the Moon with Neptune or Pluto, or with the Moon, Neptune, or Pluto located at the Midheaven and/or in the 10th house."

Allowing for a 10-degree orb with the moon, and 5 to 7 degrees for the planets, we are now talking about a lot of real estate around the horoscope perimeter. Yet how common, really, in the general population, are these problems? Of course they occur, but does anyone else see anything loosey-goosey here?

The "good enough mother" theory in this section further does not acknowledge the role of child-rearing theories, pediatric professionals, and culture in child-rearing practices. (Anyone else here recall the "other" Spock, author of Baby and Child Care, one of the best-selling books of all time?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Spock Anyone here read Alice Miller on the aloofness and even cruelty of normed German child-rearing practices? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist) Her book Drama of the Gifted Child places the blame for mental health problems due to child abuse on the shoulders of societies that ignore or even foster it.

What about children who grow up in close extended families, notably in places where multiple care-givers is the cultural norm, and nobody expects Mom to be the sole primary care-giver for her baby? Grandmothers who live close by and have the time to spare are often huge contributors to the raising of young children. Many working mothers today have been fortunate to find loving and attentive paid care-givers.

Sadly, back when I was a kid, there was no emotional support for single mothers who had to work long hours to support their children-- putting bread on the table and a roof over their heads. No doubt some middle-class psychoanalysts saw them as "aloof" or "self absorbed."

One feels (pp. 152-3) that Winnecott's "good enough mother" still faces a high bar, indeed.

For a recent and balanced retrospective on Freud, see: http://io9.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost-1055800815

The author notes that psychological scientists had abandoned Freud's theories by 1996-- the year Greene's book was published.

Of the Liz Greene books I've read this one is, nevertheless, probably her best. It is loaded with scholarship, multiple examples, and I think a good characterization of Neptune beyond psychoanalysis. I had many "aha" moments reading this book. I just happen to disagree with Greene's portrayal of motherhood, because it seems to be based upon a flawed psychoanalytic view of motherhood more generally.

Greene herself has no children.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
It seems like there's a differentiation between astrology that is considered psychological and that which is based on character analysis. Would you say this is a fair characterization of the different types of modern astrology you're distinguishing between? 1) Psychological 2) Spiritual (Evolutionary, etc) 3) Character analysis?

I'm not sure I agree that psychological and character analysis astrology are really different. One just seems to take itself more seriously than the other.

Zarathu answered the second part of your question. By way of analogy, you wouldn't say that what distinguishes a M. D. with a specialty in internal medicine from me drinking chicken soup if I have a sore throat, is that the doctor takes herself more seriously. We might throw in the facts that I never graduated from medical school, completed an internship and residency, passed medical board exams, or treated patients on a regular basis.

I sometimes wonder if astrologers who want to paper-over the shortage of credentialing in astrology really know what they don't know. So many, IMHO, don't know what they don't know.

KnS, if you are a traditional western astrologer, how would you characterize someone like Valens's or Maternus's cookbooks on character delineation? There's obviously no psychoanalysis in them, nor is there any in Steven Forrest's modern best-sellers, The Inner Sky. How would you characterize Vedic/jyotish astrology? It had a long history prior to the introduction of psychology and cognate fields into India.

I am sure you know that modern astrology goes well beyond genethliacal astrology, although this is probably its largest share. Modern astrology also includes horary, electional, mundane, and predictive astrology.

I think it is fair to suggest that modern astrology does a lot of work with character analysis. This is something people do every day in their ordinary lives. I think we're on much safer ground saying we can give a character analysis vs. claiming affiliation with well developed fields like psychology in which most of us have no education or experience.

Similarly, for people interested in spiritual astrology, spirituality is a state of being that isn't specifically tied to theology, institutionalized doctrines, or particular creeds.
 

Tessie

Banned
Both Jung and Freud's theories of personality were abandoned by professional counselors long before 1996.
This is false. Psychodynamic therapy/counselling is arguably the most prevalent form of psychotherapy today, and definately the most expensive. Psychodynamic theory is based on and incorporates theories of Jung, Freud and others (Winnicott, Klein, etc.).

This was why the cognitive behavioral approaches were developed
Cognitive behaviour modification was not developed to compensate for other models. It gained popularity because it is statistically quantifiable, unlike the more phenomenological approaches (of which astrology is a part). In the UK, cognitive behaviour modification is not recognised as a counselling model, for obvious reasons.

I am surprised that as counselling astrologer, Zarathu, you abandon psychodynamic theory in favour of the cognitive behaviour model, which ignores the subconscious. Surely Pluto and the moon speak of its significance.
 

waybread

Well-known member
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
waybread said:
Zarathu answered the second part of your question. By way of analogy, you wouldn't say that what distinguishes a M. D. with a specialty in internal medicine from me drinking chicken soup if I have a sore throat, is that the doctor takes herself more seriously. We might throw in the facts that I never graduated from medical school, completed an internship and residency, passed medical board exams, or treated patients on a regular basis.

Qualifying psychological astrology as exclusively psycho-analytical comes across as suggesting that only trig or calculus is indeed mathematics. Would you agree that anything that attempts to explain or behavior or character is psychological to some extent?

It almost sounds like you're trying to put psychological astrology on something of a pedestal and it should be this thing that adheres to "real" theories by "real" professionals. Chicken soup is a remedy, after all, even if a lowly, simple, or humble one.

I sometimes wonder if astrologers who want to paper-over the shortage of credentialing in astrology really know what they don't know. So many, IMHO, don't know what they don't know.

I certainly hope you aren't trying to lump me into this category. I'm just asking questions to figure out what I don't know. :) If you want to talk people who want to paper over credentials, I'm going to have to introduce you to the ISAR people. I may have mentioned this before, but at one time they had a proposal to make all of their certificate program students undergo a year of therapy.

KnS, if you are a traditional western astrologer, how would you characterize someone like Valens's or Maternus's cookbooks on character delineation? There's obviously no psychoanalysis in them, nor is there any in Steven Forrest's modern best-sellers, The Inner Sky.

I tend to think that anything that discusses the internal mechanisms of an individual is psychological. I think this is our biggest disagreement.

I am sure you know that modern astrology goes well beyond genethliacal astrology, although this is probably its largest share. Modern astrology also includes horary, electional, mundane, and predictive astrology.

Ha, yes. Let's not discuss feelings about that.

I think it is fair to suggest that modern astrology does a lot of work with character analysis. This is something people do every day in their ordinary lives. I think we're on much safer ground saying we can give a character analysis vs. claiming affiliation with well developed fields like psychology in which most of us have no education or experience.

I think this is probably a very good middle ground of sorts to emphasize. My only concern is one I've already stated; it basically comes across as splitting hairs between the "real" psychology of in-depth psycho-analysis vs the "fake" psychology of character analysis. But to me they both seem to be blaming the same mother.

This has been an interesting discussion so far. :)
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
And you know this because you too spent 40 years in the trenches of professional counseling. Only the rich can afford psycho-therapy, and when they do, it takes them no where toward behavioral change. The rest of us have to have our HMO or ourselves pay for it, and they won't pay.

I abandoned it because it doesn't cause behavior change. The goldstandard of counseling success is not insight, its behavior change.

I don't know where you are getting this information.

This thread is going back to a lot of people who don't know the realities,
but who read lots of stuff on the internet.
The internet is a reality
and a useful resource
for entire texts
which are available online
without the need to purchase the book
and as such is valuable for research
:smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Oh....God! Yeah.... try to use the internet in your courses in any reputable college or university.

You actually believe that, don't you?

Is it any wonder that conversations here tend to disappear into internet trivia?
The internet is a MODERN form of communication
and a valuable one
frequently utilised by reputable colleges and/or universities
:smile:

DREAM PSYCHOLOGY Sigmund Freud http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/15489

THE INTERPRETATION OF DREAMS Sigmund Freud
http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/68/115/frameset.html

THE ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT OF PSYCHOANALYSIS Sigmund Freud 1901 http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Freud/Origin/origin1.htm

PSYCHOPATHOLOGY OF EVERYDAY LIFE Sigmund Freud
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Freud/Psycho/
 

Tessie

Banned
Only the rich can afford psycho-therapy, and when they do, it takes them no where toward behavioral change.
With all due respect, you are wrong. Also, psychotherapy is aimed at psychiatric disorders which are about more than simple behaviour change.

I don't know where you are getting this information. Perhaps you think I'm lying about 40 years of professional experience. Why would I do that?
Empirical science.

This thread is going back to a lot of people who don't know the realities,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20141265

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=480F4ACF4186D2133B83B0EA43320CD6.f04t04

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1516/6DGH-0KJT-PA40-REX9/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15583112
 

Tessie

Banned
With respect to psychological astrology, "psychology" is defined as the study (-ology) of the soul (psyche). Each human tries to make sense of his environment, even if he only ever meets himself in the process. Each person is a psychologist most of the time.

In recent history, distinctions have been made between lay psychologists, academic psychologists and clinical psychologists. Academic psychologists are researchers who apply empirical rigor to their work. Clinical psychologists recruit the outcomes of this research type through assessment and therapy. It is clear these distinctions are borne out by socio-economic factors. They are not reflective of all it means to practice psychology.

What distinguishes the professional variety psychologist from the lay counterpart is the philosophy which underpinns their work: Empiricism. Empiricism states that only events which are observable and replicable can count as knowledge. However, not all human experience is observable or repeatable, including a human himself. Spirituality, for instance, may be seen as the essence of human experience but it does not lend itself to quantification. The same is true with the notion of a thought. Astrology, which seeks to decipher existential mechanisms limited to the individual in time and space, by definition, cannot be an empirical science.

What is psychological astrology and what does one hope to achieve with it?

It seems clear, glorified psychologists may know the corner of their trade. However, their university degree does not qualify them as experts on the soul. To ignore this consideration is to ignore the very reason we are distinguishng psychologists from non-psychologists, in this thread, in the first place.

Astrology is psychological. We use it to assist our psychological dynamic. Do we need a professional psychologist to maximise its use? I dont know. Given that professional psychologists are defined by empirical practice, however, it makes more sense that this group do not offer astrology as part of their service since astrology is not empirically validated.

Whatever the origins of psychological astrology are, we speak of its destination. If some think psychological astrology should be used exclusively by professional psychologists, the onus is on them to first validate its use as a tool in order to eliminate bias and error effects, both of which breach ethical guidelines.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
KnS, in reply:

No, I wouldn't define psychology as co-equal with psychoanalysis. That would be patently inaccurate. But neither do I see psychology as a convenient catch-all for anything and everything that non-psychologists might choose to identify with it.

I'd be curious to know how the "lumpers" define philosophy, religious studies, or the humanities as distinct from psychology.

It almost sounds like you're trying to put psychological astrology on something of a pedestal and it should be this thing that adheres to "real" theories by "real" professionals. Chicken soup is a remedy, after all, even if a lowly, simple, or humble one.
No, I am not putting it on a "pedestal" but yes, there is a realty about the field of psychology that many non-psychologists apparently fail to grasp. Psychology in this sense is comparable to many other fields with both an academic research side as well as professional practice, such as accounting, social work, medicine, law, and public school teaching. Many fields without the academic research side further require their professionals to have training specific to their work, like an air brakes course and special driver's license for professional truck drivers.

Somehow astrologers feel they deserve an exceptionalist argument.

And are you truly comparing a food home remedy with the training required of a M. D.? If so, how would you feel about being treated by a do-it-yourself eye surgeon?

If you live in Arkansas, you might be interested in the following: http://psychologyboard.arkansas.gov/Pages/default.aspx The Arkansas Psychology Board was established by an act of your state legislature. I. e., what constitutes the practice of psychology in a consulting or clinical type of setting isn't up for grabs. It's a matter of law in your state.

The home page reads in part: "The major responsibility of the Arkansas Psychology Board is to ensure that the citizens of Arkansas are protected from misrepresentation, unethical practice, and/or incompetence in the practice of psychology. Therefore, in order to protect the citizens of Arkansas, the Board must approve the credentials of all applicants, schedule written examinations, and administer oral examinations. In addition, the Board investigates all allegations of possible ethical violations including but not limited to misrepresentation, unethical practice, and/or incompetence."

Further, if you look at the enabling legislation (2009):

"Pursuant to A.C.A. § 17-97-301, it is a misdemeanor for any unlicensed individual to
practice or hold him/herself out to the public as being engaged in the practice of
psychology. Use of any title incorporating "psychology," "Psychologist" or
"psychological," or any other title that, by implication, is associated with the practice
of psychology, shall be used only by licensed individuals except as provided in
A.C.A. § 17-97-307."

If I am reading section 5.4 correctly, the state of Arkansas requires practising psychologists to hold a Ph. D. in psychology. So the standard by which an astrologer could claim a "psychological astrology" practice given the above paragraph is high indeed.

Other states and Canadian provinces have similar laws that often specify that the applicant for a license possess a minimum of a Master's degree in psychology or an allied field (such as social work or counseling.)

But surely you knew all of this?

At least in Arkansas, anyone advertising his services as a "psychological astrologer" could be in violation of state law under section 4 of the ARKANSAS PSYCHOLOGY BOARD RULES AND REGULATIONS.




 
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