What is chart rectification?

waybread

Well-known member
Kannon, thanks. It's good to read the voice of experience.

A quick perusal of "rectification astrology" at amazon.com reveals half a dozen books currently in print, plus more available through used book sellers.

The idea that a chart can be rectified only if a time close to the birth time is known just doesn't hold up. Part of the reason is because many rectification methods are based upon the timing of events as they relate to the affairs of a particular house. Important events like the birth of a child, a career change, or serious illness relate to the 5th, 10th, and 6th houses respectively (unless one wishes to get further refinement, drawing upon medical astrology for the latter.)

Then once a working model of the chart is cast, one can add in additional events, to see if they validate the model or argue for further refinement.

To do this well is tremendously time-consuming, and depends upon the chart native having pretty good recall of dates. If an astrologer of Steven Forrest's stature no longer does chart rectification, the time requirement may well be the main reason. He is a popular speaker at astrological conferences, teacher, and author.

The problem of rectification reminds me of this article by Michael Munkasey http://www.scribd.com/doc/6495552/An-Astrological-House-Formulary#scribd in which he says that the "best" house system is the one that most accurately describes the topic in question. If the topic is best described by an 8th house moon, we don't use a system that puts the moon in the 7th or the 9th house.

This is why many horary astrologers prefer Regiomontanus houses, because they feel they give the best results; whereas those who explain mundane events or rectify charts are likely to prefer Placidus, because it seems to be the most time-sensitive of the house systems.

As Kannon noted, the astrologer further needs to know multiple predictive/post-dictive techniques: transits, progressions, solar arcs, profections, primary directions, and so on.

I have a copy of Laurie Efrein, How to Rectify a Birth Chart. (1987) She used a detailed worksheet and some basic principles to simplify the process of timing events. Like Kannon, she stresses the desirability of getting to know the native personally, to best detect the "me" in the chart. The "me" might be where the native most strongly expresses her personality, or it might be her personal appearance.

Given what we know about genetics (family inheritance) we may tread carefully around the former belief in red-headed Aries risings (possible only if genes permit,) and would look for behaviour and mannerisms as pointing to a likely first house.

My personal feeling is that if we can't nail down the birth time within a few minutes, we're best off using whole signs for natal chart interpretation. It lacks the sensitivity of Placidus, but then Placidus in a natal chart may give an impression of accuracy that doesn't pertain.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
A quick perusal of "rectification astrology" at amazon.com reveals half a dozen books currently in print, plus more available through used book sellers.

The idea that a chart can be rectified only if a time close to the birth time is known just doesn't hold up. Part of the reason is because many rectification methods are based upon the timing of events as they relate to the affairs of a particular house. Important events like the birth of a child, a career change, or serious illness relate to the 5th, 10th, and 6th houses respectively (unless one wishes to get further refinement, drawing upon medical astrology for the latter.)

Then once a working model of the chart is cast, one can add in additional events, to see if they validate the model or argue for further refinement.

You could match events from the life of an individual to a certain "random" Ascendant. But in the same chart, you can try another Ascendant position and do the same. And another. And another. And so on.

Most likely, you can find 4 or 5 possible Ascendant positions in different signs whose directions or planetary positions are suitable for 80%-90% of the events tested.

As you mention, many events in the natives life relate to house position. Without a certifiable time frame to work with, many different similar events can be drawn from different signs or planetary position.

A few examples of problems with this method:


  • a) Because of aspects relating to (for example) Venus, we could assume certain things about a specific house, like a "Taurus as the 10th house", however the same conclusions could be drawn from Libra, given the connection between both signs through their ruler.

  • b) Similar planetary positions or aspects could indicate similar things, thus rendering them as viable options to represent the same house. For example: Mars in Cancer in the 5th house, or Mercury in Pisces in the 5th house.

  • c) Having a vast time difference (24 hrs) affects the position of the fastest planets: Moon mainly, along with Venus and Mercury (who can move around 2 degrees at top speed). The planetary position of Mercury at 2:00 am, will not be the same as the one at 23:00 hs. This is far more noticeable with the Moon, who may travel like 13 degrees.

  • d) You can't direct the Asc or Mc, which are both very important for directions. House cusps by themselves become very unreliable as significators to match events.

  • e) Different directions to similar planets can indicate similar things: Directions to Moon or Venus could indicate both an event relating to a mother/sister/daughter, so the same conclusions can be drawn from those planets, but without a day-time indication or a house rulership, its almost imposible to distinguish which one is better suited.

  • f) Different signs have similar qualities that can explain a person through personality and looks, like Virgo and Capricorn ascendants on personality, which are very similar. The differences are minor. The physical description through sign is usually never realistic, given that planets also affect the ascendant ruler directly by aspect.
The end-story is we can always find some planetary position/quality/aspect to match certain events, but you can't even be 50% sure you have the correct thing. There always needs to be some info about the circumstances of birth, otherwise it is impossible.
 
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ukdesifem

Well-known member
It's not an exact science, so to speak. But I've seen examples done that correlate well with recorded birth times, and all of the physical/personality ascendant traits.

I've been trying this on myself, and yes it is a very timely process. However, it's rewarding, and frankly something everybody needs to do/know to ever get a truly accurate reading in any astrological area.

To say it's bunk is not true, as per my first paragraph, though I think there always is an excepted margin of error. I'd take a rectified chart within 3, 4, or even 5 degrees out, since this wouldn't terribly alter orbs or house placements.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
Dirius, the title of the thread is What is chart rectification? By nature that requires some explanation or real examples for those here who are reading to learn rather than to participate in or watch an academic debate. The real fulcrum of this debate is level of astrological literacy, which forms the basis for one's confidence in the practice. Some may have confidence to make 'little' rectifications within say a 2-hour span or less. Others' confidence may stretch further.

24-hour rectifications must be done at times because there are people who want an accurate birth charts who have no time clues whatsoever. These are folks that want to know their correct rising sign, house layout, etc. Call them "speculative" if you want, but there is a difference between speculative charts for public figures the astrologer doesn't even know, and well-informed 24-hour rectification work in which the astrologer has direct contact with the person in question.

If you don't believe they can be done, then don't do them.

What you seem to be ignoring is that some notions of birth time for a given person can be wrong. An astrologer engaging in rectification work has to possess the knowledge to be able to determine if they have been given wrong birth time info. This may mean even time clues or 'certified' birth times may have to be thrown out once tested.

If you can't, then don't. But you might be able to learn something from those who can.
That's my experience as well. It's not that difficult to get the correct rising sign of someone you know a little.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
It's not an exact science, so to speak.
But I've seen examples done that correlate well with recorded birth times, and all of the physical/personality ascendant traits.

I've been trying this on myself, and yes it is a very timely process.
However, it's rewarding, and frankly something everybody needs to do/know to ever get a truly accurate reading in any astrological area.

To say it's bunk is not true, as per my first paragraph, though I think there always is an excepted margin of error.
I'd take a rectified chart within 3, 4, or even 5 degrees out, since this wouldn't terribly alter orbs or house placements.
Multiple ancient sources are in agreement with you :smile:
and there's a long thread discussion on the topic
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626

That's my experience as well.
It's not that difficult to get the correct rising sign of someone you know a little.
You highlight the importance
of at least being - to some extent - familiar with the individual whose chart is being rectified :smile:
but if the person is unknown to the astrologer
and the astrologer has no known time of birth
and there are few if any reliable details of important life events

then any rectification becomes dubious

It's also not that difficult
to get the rising sign of someone you know a little
completely wrong
not to mention the fact that
astrologers often disagree regarding their rectifications
HENCE such topics as USA CHART - THE ULTIMATE DEBATE
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=947&highlight=ultimate
 

Dirius

Well-known member
I think many posters are not understanding the purpose of the topic, because it is derived from another topic:

- The topic does not question chart rectification.

- The topic questions 24 hour rectification. As in not knowing any type of birth data rather than the birthday.

I say this because of posts like this:

Chart rectification worked for me. I knew that my birthtime wasn't correct by my 2nd or 3rd astrological lesson. Mothers memory of my birthtime was an hour and 5 minutes out, and one simple m/c mercury conjunction in my "wrong natal chart" made the wrong birthtime very obvious. I had to get my birthtime from hospital records to get a chart that actually fitted my internal self, and then I proceeded to test the new birthtime with secondary progressions, it fits well, I actually made a thread about it here
No one questions this. We question 24 hour charts with no birth time at all.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
I think many posters are not understanding the purpose of the topic, because it is derived from another topic:

- The topic does not question chart rectification.

- The topic questions 24 hour rectification. As in not knowing any type of birth data rather than the birthday.

No one questions this. We question 24 hour charts with no birth time at all.
I thought the consensus so far is that 24 hour chart rectification is possible if we know a little about the persons life and character? Do you suggest that this isn't possible either? Maybe you are using the wrong method?
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
I thought the consensus so far is that 24 hour chart rectification is possible if we know a little about the persons life and character? Do you suggest that this isn't possible either? Maybe you are using the wrong method?

Yes a lot of people seem to agree that it is possible.

Yet that "lot of people", have not posted proof, evidence, a method, or a chart.

Most examples that were given by everyone, have been about charts with a time frame, or posted other authors that also agree with them, but don't provide a 24 hour rectification either.

Saying that something "can be done", without actually proving it, doesn't mean much.
 
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muchacho

Well-known member
Yes a lot of people seem to agree that it is possible.

Yet that "lot of people", have not posted proof, evidence, a method, or a chart.

Most examples that were given by everyone, have been about charts with a time frame, or posted other authors that also agree with them, but don't provide a 24 hour rectification either.

Saying that something "can be done", without actually proving it, doesn't mean much.
If we are just talking about finding the correct rising sign, then that isn't such a big deal if you've got enough personal details. Getting the exact degree of the ASC is another story though.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
If we are just talking about finding the correct rising sign,
then that isn't such a big deal
if you've got enough personal details.
Getting the exact degree of the ASC is another story though.
we're discussing '24 hour rectification' :smile:
of complete strangers unknown to the astrologer
with no time of birth
and whose fame simply brings them to the astrologers attention
i.e.

Sometimes there is no help at all for time info.

This is when we go purely astrological.
This is an even greater test of the astrologer's astrological literacy and fluency of both planets and signs.....

.....I don't know what unique_astrology considers in arriving at a 'speculative' chart, as with Fogle.
He seems to enjoy the more technical parts
and I'd like to see him explain more fully his approach
regarding what points him to a particular Asc sign/degree.
(I'm thinking in tropical zodiac terms here)......

You need more than mere life events

to do 24-hour rectifications,
or any rectification for that matter.
I always need life events, but those alone amount to almost nothing
without a well-focused, solid picture of the person as a human being.
There can be clues in what a person says they've been going through,
and members of this forum can see where I have speculated in such a manner here.
But that does not amount to a final rectification in any way.....
specifically, we are discussing the case of Jared Fogle, arrested on child pornography charges
No official time of birth is given for Fogle

24-hour rectifications must be done at times
because there are people who want an accurate birth charts
who have no time clues whatsoever
.
These are folks that want to know their correct rising sign, house layout, etc.
Call them "speculative" if you want,
but there is a difference between speculative charts for public figures the astrologer doesn't even know,
and well-informed 24-hour rectification work in which the astrologer has direct contact with the person in question......
We're discussing whether 'well-informed 24-hour rectification'
with no time of birth
could be feasible
when the astrologer is in direct contact with the person in question
 

waybread

Well-known member
Tim Wilson split off this thread from a previous one, so it doesn't specifically refer to any previous thread.

Dirius, I think what you're saying is that it's hard to get your head around 24-hour chart rectification. And that's fine. But that doesn't mean nobody else can do it with good results. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8039&highlight=animodar I hope you weren't side-tracked by my Munkasey quote, which I cited to indicate a general principle

Certainly we have to recognize that more than one horoscopic placement can simulate the same manifestation. Perhaps Taurus isn't rising, but the native has Venus in the first house, for example. So trying to determine the rising sign by the native's appearance alone may not get us very far.

This is why many astrologers who rectify charts work mainly with event timing. For example, if you know the birth dates of the native's three children, you would theorize that something should activate her 5th house at those dates, whatever house cusp sign ruler or tenants might be activated.

Because I don't have any high-powered software I seldom do any chart rectification. I think we should all learn to read nativities with no houses. We lose a lot of desired information that way, but it's better to lose it than to use a default time and bogus house cusps.

I would use the Astrodienst default noon birth time in a no-house chart, and then recognize that the moon could move six degrees either way. The moon also changes sign every third day.

I don't have a birth time for my husband of 19 years. However, the moon changed sign on his birthday. I just think the Sagittarian moon fits him so well, but a Capricorn moon does not. So this first-cut narrows the time of day in which he could have been born. We can quickly eliminate a bunch of potential rising signs.

Profections tend to highlight the events of a given year, noted in sequence around the 12 whole sign houses. If the house itself doesn't seem activated, look at the cusp ruler.

Eventually, using the range of timing techniques in your repertory, you can work by a process of elimination.

Obviously horary astrology can't work this way. But if your goal is to read a natal chart, then we have to recognize that astrology isn't an exact science. House cusps wiggle around a little or a lot with different house systems, notably for high-latitude births. The sidereal zodiac would put all of our planets at 24 or 27 degrees earlier than our accustomed tropical zodiac would-- depending upon whom you ask. Then many astrologers think that a planet within 5 degrees of the next house cusp means that its action is felt primarily in the next house.

Which is why I am sceptical of assuming that pinpoint accuracy in designating a birth time can really matter all that much in natal chart interpretation. I tend to focus first on tight aspects, because these should pertain regardless, and close squares and oppositions in particular indicate key life issues for the native.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Certainly we have to recognize that more than one horoscopic placement can simulate the same manifestation. Perhaps Taurus isn't rising, but the native has Venus in the first house, for example. So trying to determine the rising sign by the native's appearance alone may not get us very far.

This is why many astrologers who rectify charts work mainly with event timing. For example, if you know the birth dates of the native's three children, you would theorize that something should activate her 5th house at those dates, whatever house cusp sign ruler or tenants might be activated.

But the problem still remains, that without a certain time frame, you can't really determine which cusp a planet is affecting. I presume that the method you are reffering to, is of transits to house cusps for specific dates:

a) The first problem you find is that, while you look for transits to a specific house cusps for those dates, you can find very similar meanings to explain this. For example, as I mentioned, Venus or Moon as woman signifiers can both present a viable explanation to the birth of a daughter, or Jupiter ruler of good things in general.

b) The second problem is the secondary signification of house ruler, given that you can't really know which planet would rule the 5th house (lets say Saturn does), you can't be certain that the birth of children would be caused by Saturn as the radix ruler of the house, rather than Moon/Venus/Jupiter.

Considering point "A" and point "B", you may very well have 4 planets that could, depending on the method, describe the situation on the chart-

So by these simple contradiction, it is imposible to rectify without knowledge using methods like Transits or Solar returns, because many ascendant positions can explain the transits or solar returns, and still give you a high match for the events.


Because I don't have any high-powered software I seldom do any chart rectification. I think we should all learn to read nativities with no houses. We lose a lot of desired information that way, but it's better to lose it than to use a default time and bogus house cusps.

I would use the Astrodienst default noon birth time in a no-house chart, and then recognize that the moon could move six degrees either way. The moon also changes sign every third day.

I don't have a birth time for my husband of 19 years. However, the moon changed sign on his birthday. I just think the Sagittarian moon fits him so well, but a Capricorn moon does not. So this first-cut narrows the time of day in which he could have been born. We can quickly eliminate a bunch of potential rising signs.

But psychological readings are by far the most unreliable ways to determine a person's chart. The whole concept in this case would work on the assumption that you are making, for example, of your husband having a Sagittarian Moon, just because it is your impression that he does.

Furthermore in this example you are talking about someone you've known for over 19 years, so obviously at that point you do have some insight on his personality. You can't really expect that with most people.

Profections tend to highlight the events of a given year, noted in sequence around the 12 whole sign houses. If the house itself doesn't seem activated, look at the cusp ruler.
The most important profections are those of the Ascendant, the Sun and the Moon. So there are 2 problems that arise on this point:

a) You can't use the Ascendant because you don't know it. You can't use Moon because you don't know its exact sign (like in your husband's example, he may be capricorn or sagittarius Moon). So all you can use is the Sun profections.

b) Profections themselves matter to planetary position. The Sun profecting to, for example, the Moon in Capricorn isn't the same as the Sun profecting to the Moon in Sagittarius. Furthermore, this would imply the profection to that planet occurs in different given years.

So profections also fail for this, because the great amount of planetary significances vary too much.

c) A profection is read in light of a birth chart, not as a stand alone chart. To understand what the profection means you need to understand what the planet represents in the chart in the first place, aside from its natural rulerships.

The Sun as ruler of the Ascendant, being profected, isn't the same as the Sun as the ruler of the 3rd house.

So profections also become unreliable to a 24 hour rectification.

Eventually, using the range of timing techniques in your repertory, you can work by a process of elimination.
But in the end the elimination is based on assumptions rather than an objective view of the chart.

The reason I'm saying it can't be done, at least not by the methods known to us, is because it can't logically sustain itself.

Of course if someone came up with a new, completly different secret method no one knows about, that happens to avoid all the problems the others method have, then yes by all means, it could be possible.

...but since most of the talk has been about already existing methods, then it is clear that it can't be done.
 
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wan

Well-known member
I think this is a fascinating topic. Is there anybody who can rectify my chart for me? I have a birth time, however I often feel that it's not "right".

Thanks.
 

waybread

Well-known member
But the problem still remains, that without a certain time frame, you can't really determine which cusp a planet is affecting. I presume that the method you are reffering to, is of transits to house cusps for specific dates:

Not necessarily. As I indicated several times previously (cough, ahem,) you have to be familiar with multiple timing techniques. For example, with a birth time given on my birth certificate, I found that straight transits worked for my son's birth, while my daughter's birth related to a tertiary progression.

a) The first problem you find is that, while you look for transits to a specific house cusps for those dates, you can find very similar meanings to explain this. For example, as I mentioned, Venus or Moon as woman signifiers can both present a viable explanation to the birth of a daughter, or Jupiter ruler of good things in general.
But these aren't transits I would normally look for, except as they might relate to a particular house. Again, use multiple timed events. Then once you have a working hypothesis, check it again, against further timed events. Also, a given timed event may not relate to a house cusp, but to a conjunction with natal planet in the house.

I know you dislike the modern outers, but some astrologers feel that Uranus transiting into a house is a sensitive indicator because it governs sudden change.

b) The second problem is the secondary signification of house ruler, given that you can't really know which planet would rule the 5th house (lets say Saturn does), you can't be certain that the birth of children would be caused by Saturn as the radix ruler of the house, rather than Moon/Venus/Jupiter.
Look, Dirius, I never said rectification would be easy. This is why a lot of astrologers don't get into chart rectification. Furthermore, some astrologers believe that given individuals respond better to one house system or another. Member Alice McDermott (professional astrologer Alice Portman) has made an in-depth historical study of the British royal family, and found that they responded best to the Regiomontanus house system.

I sure don't see the radix ruler of a house as "causing" events. Timing is all about synchronicity.

But let's unpack this a little. Suppose neither of the native's parents is living. She gives you their death dates. Dad's death should theoretically be the 8th from her 4th house, or your 11th house. Mom's death should theoretically be the 8th from her 10th house, or 5th house. Start with these as hypotheticals, then keep working through more dates. Mods might do the parental houses in reverse (Mom=#4, Dad=#10,) so maybe that's a better fit. (It is in my chart.) Maybe the native had a marriage and divorce. What does this suggest for a 7th house?

Maybe you don't find a transit, but find a solar arc or progression "hit."

Considering point "A" and point "B", you may very well have 4 planets that could, depending on the method, describe the situation on the chart-
So this is why you wouldn't focus so much on the meaning of a planet as a first rough-cut, but on the meaning of a house. Again, start with an event and determine which house best describes it. If straight-up transits don't seem to apply, try


So by these simple contradiction, it is imposible to rectify without knowledge using methods like Transits or Solar returns, because many ascendant positions can explain the transits or solar returns, and still give you a high match for the events.
Is there an echo in here? I mentioned several times that you need a good repertory of different timing techniques.

But psychological readings are by far the most unreliable ways to determine a person's chart. The whole concept in this case would work on the assumption that you are making, for example, of your husband having a Sagittarian Moon, just because it is your impression that he does.
Well, to each his own. Theoretically a planet shows the "what" in a chart, like a noun in a sentence. The house shows the "where" or "domain of life" in which a planet operates. A sign shows "how or in what manner."

A natal Sagittarian moon (Jupiter-ruled, mutable fire) is very different from a Capricorn moon (Saturnine cardinal earth.) He's generally optimistic, enjoys studying philosophy, and generous. He is often enthusiastic. His emotional nature is not notably governed by caution (Saturn), or by a material/practical orientation (earth); traits more akin to Capricorn. (You don't have to think "psychology" here, but traditional astrology's concern with temperament: choleric, phlegmatic, melancholic, and sanguine.) Then we consider natal aspects to a hypothetical moon location.

Obviously after 19 years of marriage plus additional time of acquaintanceship, friendship, courtship, &c, I've gotten to know the guy pretty well. In our case, I've also got synastry to work with, although not every astrologer would.

So I think in about 1/3 cases where the moon changed signs on the person's birth date, I think you have a leg up on the rectification process.

Furthermore in this example you are talking about someone you've known for over 19 years, so obviously at that point you do have some insight on his personality. You can't really expect that with most people.
Naturally not. But note that Kannon, who rectifies charts as a professional astrologer, stresses that it is helpful and important to know something about the native personally. We're not really into "blind" chart readings with rectification.

The most important profections are those of the Ascendant, the Sun and the Moon. So there are 2 problems that arise on this point:

a) You can't use the Ascendant because you don't know it. You can't use Moon because you don't know its exact sign (like in your husband's example, he may be capricorn or sagittarius Moon). So all you can use is the Sun profections.

b) Profections themselves matter to planetary position. The Sun profecting to, for example, the Moon in Capricorn isn't the same as the Sun profecting to the Moon in Sagittarius. Furthermore, this would imply the profection to that planet occurs in different given years.

So profections also fail for this, because the great amount of planetary significances vary too much.

c) A profection is read in light of a birth chart, not as a stand alone chart. To understand what the profection means you need to understand what the planet represents in the chart in the first place, aside from its natural rulerships.

The Sun as ruler of the Ascendant, being profected, isn't the same as the Sun as the ruler of the 3rd house.

So profections also become unreliable to a 24 hour rectification.
Profections are simply one tool in your tool kit, Dirius. You are familiar with techniques of prognostication or prediction in astrology. With rectification, you essentially apply these techniques-- but in a retrospective or "post-dictive" manner. Have you seen this thread? http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1338990298

I think the problem is that you consider and discard methods one at a time. In rectification, however, you would probably deploy several predictive (post-dictive) methods, keeping all of them out on the table. Because one of the native's life-events might have responded to a transit, another to a solar arc, another to profection, and so on.

So for example, suppose after working with several solid dates, you come up with a hypothetical chart that seems to fit them. You thereby come up with a hypothetical first house/rising sign and 10th house/sign. Try a profection (which may work best with whole signs, as Paul recommends on that thread,) and then see if it correlates with your hypothesis or necessitates further refinement.

Needless to say, in roughly 2/3 of the cases you know the moon sign because the moon didn't change on the birth date. You would know the sun sign in roughly 29/30 or 30/31 cases.

Laurie Efrein, in her book, How to Rectify a Birth Chart, says that angles are involved in nearly all major life events in one way or another, so we would look for tie-ins, even with events linked to non-angular houses.


But in the end the elimination is based on assumptions rather than an objective view of the chart.

The reason I'm saying it can't be done, at least not by the methods known to us, is because it can't logically sustain itself.

Of course if someone came up with a new, completly different secret method no one knows about, that happens to avoid all the problems the others method have, then yes by all means, it could be possible.

...but since most of the talk has been about already existing methods, then it is clear that it can't be done.
It is by no means correct "that it can't be done." It is being done, and by respected traditional astrologers like Benjamin Dykes and Chris Brennan http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2009/12/11/five-tips-for-birth-chart-rectification/. What is abundantly clear is that you don't want to consider rectification beyond your immediate rejection.

Brennan sensibly notes that a rectification is, at some level, speculative (if you can never check it against a verified birth time,) yet it can work really well for most applied purposes. You might be interested to see how he uses the traditional concepts of sect, benefic and malefic planets, and whole sign houses.

But maybe at this point, Dirius, you will consider the ways in which traditional astrologers differ significantly from one another. Chart rectification is an ancient pursuit (as JA noted,) precisely because during so much of astrology's history, accurate clocks and birth times were unavailable.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
I think this is a fascinating topic. Is there anybody who can rectify my chart for me? I have a birth time, however I often feel that it's not "right".

Thanks.

You might contact Kannon, on this thread. Rectification is one area where I would suggest you pay a professional astrologer for his/her expertise and time.

Dirius: just one other thing. I don't know whether you practice electional or predictive astrology based on nativities. But obviously astrologers predict future outcomes when their reality isn't known, at least not for a while. Highly speculative, eh wot? And then sometimes predictive astrologers get it wrong. Rectification has been called "reverse engineering" of a horoscope, because the events are generally known and you try to match up the chart to those events.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
I really don't get why you would make such a long post explaining your method, while it still fails to take on account that the whole process you just described is merely based on choice.

As you start your post:

Then once you have a working hypothesis, check it again, against further timed events.

Here is when the problem arises and the rest follows. It is still a "working" hypothesis, among many other working "hypothesis".

You can probably come up with 3 or 4 different charts that may explain the individual. The one you pick, doesn't make it right, on a 24 hour chart with no time.

Yes you can find a transit, and then a progression. You can do the same with the next chart, if you are looking to explain. Its observational bias.

If you give 2 different astrologers a chart with no time, both of them will probably come up with different ascendants. Why? because they both "found" different transits, positions, directions that seemed to explain the same thing.

However, with a more or less accurate time frame, most astrologers end up agreeing in a very similar degree Ascendant.

If you probably give everyone that commented on this post a chart with a lets say 2 hour time frame, most of us will probably rectify the chart very closely from each other (with a difference of a few degrees at best).

...but with a time less chart, its most likely that everyone that is claiming that they can do it, will probably come up with very different charts. (unless of course the is some conjoint effort to make it similar, which would be cheating)

That it is why it would be a hypothesis. Its an idea, not a proven fact.

Nothing with that method could ensure that you have the right chart.

The rest of your post is you explaining your method of rectification, which I think is fair, but still not conclusive for a 24 hour rectification.

It is by no means correct "that it can't be done." It is being done, and by respected traditional astrologers like Benjamin Dykes and Chris Brennan http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2009/12/11/five-tips-for-birth-chart-rectification/. What is abundantly clear is that you don't want to consider rectification beyond your immediate rejection.
You keep sending links of well-known astrologers and their posts on rectification. Yet none of them has even implied that 24 hour rectification can be done.

They are just topics on common rectification techniques. So I don't think it is fair to send a link, to pass it as "proof" when the subject isn't even mentioned.

Finally this:

Naturally not. But note that Kannon, who rectifies charts as a professional astrologer, stresses that it is helpful and important to know something about the native personally. We're not really into "blind" chart readings with rectification.
The chart posted by unique_astrology was done:

- without many life events (2 perhaps).
- without knowing the individual at all.

Yet to keep stressing how important this things are...yet the chart that originated this discussion fails to have the "requirements" you mention. That doesn't make much sense.

So whats the deal there?
 
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waybread

Well-known member
I really don't get why you would make such a long post explaining your method, while it still fails to take on account that the whole process you just described is merely based on choice.

What do you mean, "my method"? Chart rectification has been around for around 2000 years, involves many methods, and many practitioners. I'm just trying to explain the rudiments to you. If you read the Chris Brennan blog, you will note that his methods differ from unique_astrology's; which are based on more sophisticated techniques than I've mentioned-- or learned. For another method example, location may make a difference, so some astrologers look at planetary lines.

"Choice" certainly has its limits in astrology. If an important life event for your client was a sudden catastrophic loss of personal income, you wouldn't look for it in the 5th house. You wouldn't confuse a stressed-out Saturn with a domiciled angular Jupiter.

As you start your post: "Then once you have a working hypothesis, check it again, against further timed events."

Here is when the problem arises and the rest follows. It is still a "working" hypothesis, among many other working "hypothesis".

You can probably come up with 3 or 4 different charts that may explain the individual. The one you pick, doesn't make it right, on a 24 hour chart with no time.

Well, yes and no. Dirius, are you familiar with the concept of probabilities in statistics? Or the "snowball" research method in sociology? Please read these explanations, if not:

In mathematics, probability essentially means "the extent to which an event is likely to occur, measured by the ratio of the favorable cases to the whole number of cases possible." (from the Google search dictionary)

Suppose you have seven solid dates for a nativity of unknown birth time. You devise a chart in which 7/7 or 100% of the dates match up well with your hypothetical chart. (Keeping in mind that if astrology means anything, the events should coincide with the houses that pertain to those events.) The more your success rate compounds, the more likely it is that your chart is correct or close to correct.

Can you say for certain that your final rectified chart is correct? No, but then many astrologers question the accuracy of birth certificate times due to rounding errors, or inaccurate recording or transcribing.

The snowball sampling method involves obtaining qualitative information from more and more sources, until a point is reached where new sources reveal no new information not previously acquired. In rectification this might mean that after your 7 for 7 success rate, you acquire 5 more life event dates for the horoscope native, so that you can check your tentative chart-- and you get a 12/12 success rate (defined as having the nature of the life event match the house schema you previously constructed.) At this point, you might sensibly conclude you've got something.

Yes you can find a transit, and then a progression. You can do the same with the next chart, if you are looking to explain. Its observational bias.

If you give 2 different astrologers a chart with no time, both of them will probably come up with different ascendants. Why? because they both "found" different transits, positions, directions that seemed to explain the same thing.
I hear what you are saying. I gave the example above, of the possibility of confusing Taurus rising with Venus in the first house. But let's return to first principles of timing in the natal horoscope. Suppose your client gives you 5 dates, involving children's births, sudden job loss, a serious illness, and a new romance. We leave the ascendant out of it for the moment, because none of these events is a first house matter. On the other hand, if you've met the client and he has a bent posture and crooked teeth (physical appearance) you might consider Saturn in the first house or as the ruler of the first just as your first rough cut. (Saturn ruling the bones and teeth.)

And then eventually you reach a point where you can triangulate between your accumulated data points.

However, with a more or less accurate time frame, most astrologers end up agreeing in a very similar degree Ascendant.

If you probably give everyone that commented on this post a chart with a lets say 2 hour time frame, most of us will probably rectify the chart very closely from each other (with a difference of a few degrees at best).
Well, does anyone here disagree with this? All that some of us are saying is that skilled astrologers are capable of going further than this. But it takes a lot of time, patience, and skill. 24-hour rectification isn't for beginners.

...but with a time less chart, its most likely that everyone that is claiming that they can do it, will probably come up with very different charts. (unless of course the is some conjoint effort to make it similar, which would be cheating)

That it is why it would be a hypothesis. Its an idea, not a proven fact.

Nothing with that method could ensure that you have the right chart.

The rest of your post is you explaining your method of rectification, which I think is fair, but still not conclusive for a 24 hour rectification.
Dirius, it isn't productive to speculate about cheating or radically different charts. I've noticed that many astrologers who do rectification are also interested in the topic of timing other sorts of events, whether retrospectively or predictively. Some of them develop more sophisticated techniques than those with which I'm familiar.

We've already covered the point that there will always be some uncertainty with a rectified chart. Just as some astrologers claim uncertainty with a recorded birth time. How do we know that the recorder at the county clerk's office didn't transpose a.m. for p.m., or misread a "5" for a "3"? You cannot know for certain, in most cases, that the recorded time is correct. Mom's memory may have faded to the point where she doesn't recall, 20 years later, exactly what time her son was born. (For sure, she had other things on her mind during the delivery.)

Without doubt, a recorded birth time is the best thing to go by. But many things in life have a Plan B.

You keep sending links of well-known astrologers and their posts on rectification. Yet none of them has yet even implied that 24 hour rectification can be done.
I should think it's obvious, that none of them says they will rectify a chart only if an approximate birth time is given! Obviously, it's a lot easier to rectify a chart with an approximate birth time, but a skilled astrologer is not so limited.

But here is the definition of rectification in James R. Lewis, The Astrology Book: The Encyclopedia of Heavenly Influences:

"Rectification is the process of adjusting the birth chart to the precise birth time in cases where the birthday is known but the birth moment is inexact or completely unknown."

Laurie Efrein, in How to Rectify a Birthchart, pp. 34-36, goes even further, arguing that the native's life-- his personality and biography-- are the core of astrology. We start with his personality (temperament to you trads) and life events: then we construct a chart that is true to life for this person prior to attempting any delineation. "The chart can work only the way the native's life works." In this context, we're not looking simply to tweak a pre-given rising sign.

Efrein gives some detailed protocols and worksheets, as a means of systematizing a potentially random process.

They are just topics on common rectification techniques. So I don't think it is fair to send a link, to pass it as "proof" when the subject isn't even mentioned.
Who's talking "proof", Dirius? Frankly, when you do a horary reading and the querent doesn't get back to you on the outcome of the predicted event, you have no "proof" of the accuracy of your methods.

Finally this:

The chart posted by unique_astrology was done:

- without many life events (2 perhaps).
- without knowing the individual at all.

Yet to keep stressing how important this things are...yet the chart that originated this discussion fails to have the "requirements" you mention. That doesn't make much sense.

So whats the deal there?
As I said above, unique_astrology is the one to explain his own methods. They are more advanced than the ones I am used to. We don't know what research he may have conducted yet not mentioned in a brief post. In any event, this is now a thread on rectification more generally (thanks to Tim's ministrations. However, celebrities by their nature generally have a lot known about them, thanks to all their publicity. Their various life event dates are usually not hard to find.

I have to stress that there are many different methods for chart rectification, yet they all follow from the principle that the chart should represent the native's life. They don't actually follow from any principle about sticking to a guesstimated ascendant based on a parent's hazy recall, that could be way off, for its own reasons.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Unique_astrology says more about his chart rectification methods on this thread:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87156
and also presents speculative theories on Fogle at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=631481&postcount=837


As I said above, unique_astrology is the one to explain his own methods.
They are more advanced than the ones I am used to.
We don't know what research he may have conducted yet not mentioned in a brief post.


he states that the charts are speculative :smile:


My speculative charts produce charts that engage transits and/or progressions formed by any planets
Dirius highlights that the chart you linked to was done not only without many life events
but also without knowing the individual at all
yet you yourself continually stress the importance of having many life events
as well as of knowing the individual personally

The chart posted by unique_astrology was done:

- without many life events (2 perhaps).
- without knowing the individual at all.


Yet to keep stressing how important this things are...yet the chart that originated this discussion fails to have the "requirements" you mention. That doesn't make much sense.

So whats the deal there?
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I think this is a fascinating topic. Is there anybody who can rectify my chart for me?
I have a birth time, however I often feel that it's not "right".

Thanks.
there are FREE tips on rectification at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626 :smile:

Since you have a birth time check out detailed instructions on
how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method
FOR FREE at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm



A RECTIFICATION MANUAL
: THE US PRESIDENCY - get it here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0980185602...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_4q1l2auwm0_b

[deleted copyrighted content by request - Moderator]

A Rectification Manual is the largest collection of natal charts subjected to medieval predictive techniques available in today’s marketplace and includes a pdf of a sample rectification from the book http://regulus-astrology.com/A%20Rec...%20Example.pdf
 
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