Is Neptune a Malefic?

Well, I have Neptune rising, and I can exhaust anyone around with my energy and speed. So.....Neptune doesn't slow! Saturn is about time! Neptune is about gas, ethers, the non-verbal, colors, music - not of this planet! I am a musician however, and since it is rising it colors the ME --

drugs are negotiable - as someone has said on here, the natives used organic hallucinogens...ok - so what? Neptune is about nothing we can even verbalize. I ordered a lecture on tape once called "The Effects of Neptune in the Birth Chart" and it arrived blank. Of course. That is the effect of Neptune. So we cannot even discuss it here.

Glypha said:

drugs are negotiable - as someone has said on here, the natives used organic hallucinogens...ok - so what?

Click to expand...

I brought up THIS point to express how one cannot pin anything Neptunian down to one side of an argument, using drugs/escape as an example.

mod.

It seems to me that more than anything Neptune rules perception. Experience affects perception. Drugs merely provide a certain experience. The drug and alcohol connection to Neptune influence over perception, which includes the tendency to withdraw to an internal world (escaping reality through a chemical change of perception).

It's obviously a subjective issue on drug use anyway, as many partisans on both sides are staunch defenders of their positions as pro-drug or anti-drug and each can parade a number of examples to support their contentions.

It really comes down to other planetary influences and personal choice. The empirical understanding is that experience + genetics creates the individual personality. The astrological understanding replaces genetics with the position of the planets. Both perceptions are parallel to the understanding of the self, the universe and reality and the evidence points strongly to the role of Neptune's immense influence over experience shaping perception and Astrology in general.

Neptune's hierarchy in a chart reading should probably be placed at least in the same bracket as Pluto, if not higher. Perception shapes every thing we do. A more attuned Neptune allows deeper understanding and more choices. A poorly attuned Neptune denies the native the ability to see what is really before him, limiting choices and experience. It creates a negative feedback loop, and with a weak Saturn or Venus, will probably be a life-long affliction absent any other mitigating factors.

It all points to a serious need to assess what the weight the outer planets are given in a chart. It seems to me they have the most power over the path of destiny via the cumulative sum of a individuals action and reaction with the environment (individual seeking balance against the universe - very Piscean symbol of seeming contradiction that represents a delicate balance that underpins the entire framework of Universal Principle). It's also very revealing how discussion from multiple perceptions allows us to move forward in our understanding. Individual perception shapes the groups understanding and therefore destiny. That's the power and lesson of Neptune. Fail to learn it at our peril. Look to the Dark Ages if there are any questions.

Note: Intuition/instinct would be the binary of perception and both should be considered two parts of a whole. Aquarius would seem to represent inductive logic (inspiration), the purest combination of air and water. The inspiration is contained in the Water-Bearer's bucket. Uranus seems to rule pure logic, with Mercury ruling logic influenced by personal perspective (Opinion). Could anyone recommend a good breakdown of the Jung's Functions? That would help with understanding planetary assignments of qualities and their influence, and the behavioral psychological functions seem to be the best contemporaneous analog to the elements, qualities and modes. I would also be very interested in any relating to Jung's practice of astrology.

[I couldn't figure out/ get my computer to quote this so I did it manually:]

It really comes down to other planetary influences and personal choice. The empirical understanding is that experience + genetics creates the individual personality. The astrological understanding replaces genetics with the position of the planets. Both perceptions are parallel to the understanding of the self, the universe and reality and the evidence points strongly to the role of Neptune's immense influence over experience shaping perception and Astrology in general.

Neptune's hierarchy in a chart reading should probably be placed at least in the same bracket as Pluto, if not higher. Perception shapes every thing we do. A more attuned Neptune allows deeper understanding and more choices. A poorly attuned Neptune denies the native the ability to see what is really before him, limiting choices and experience. It creates a negative feedback loop, and with a weak Saturn or Venus, will probably be a life-long affliction absent any other mitigating factors.


I do think that experience is integral to the understanding of the personality, just as much as genetics. But I do not think that Neptune's influence over perception is exclusive. Each planet affects out perception over different aspects of our life- Mercury represents our perception of logic and how we actually reason. Uranus might represent 'pure' logic in abstract but what does it do in our chart? I think the moon and Saturn greatly affect our perception, through instinct and habit, and fear and judgment.

And I disagree that a poorly attuned Neptune denies the native the ability to see what is really before them. If anything I think Neptune does the opposite- I think it can alter perception to show what is not there. And this can prove a great source of inspiration, to see this different state that is not there, to experience it. But I'm going to have to favour Pluto for actual experience of what is there. And to Pluto, with maybe the help of Uranus and Neptune to see how what is actually there can be twisted and spun to be perceived in different ways.

So I guess I'm saying that I think the Plutonian perception is more meaningful. I've just had the only strong Neptunian transit I've ever had, and in general I think my Neptune is well integrated but throughout it it was my Pluto inside me that kept saying 'this is ridiculous,' and it was Pluto that kept pinching me to say 'you've been had here'. I had a great transit, thoroughly enjoyable, but throughout it my Pluto kept saying to me, is this meaningful?

In charts I've seen Pluto can so frequently be interpreted as following on from Neptune, that I'm partially convinced that Pluto should rule Aries, and Mars Scorpio.

Hi there! Interesting thread. It seems that folks feel the need to put planets in hierarchies instead of letting them all just work their energies in the same realm, at the same level. Hierarchical placement would have more to do with planets appearing in Gauquelin sectors of the chart, or out of bounds declinations.

I agree with you OP that all of the planets have a way of perceiving that is their own, don't feel like describing all of my findings here and now, but I think Mars does belong with Aries and Pluto with Scorpio.

Firstly, there are alot of interesting "coincidences" about the words Mars and Aries: "Mars" is an anagram for "Rams" and "Arms" (guns). Plus Mars is fiery, outright, stirring passion, physically active, astrologically-speaking it's pretty much the sole cause of anger, which fits almost every definition of the sign Aries I've known.

Both of Mars's signs tend to fond of red, but Scorpio also has a deep affinity with black, a color commonly attributed to Pluto. Plus the natures of Pluto and Scorpio are more alike, they're subtle, suspicious, penetrating, questioning the motives and psychology of others, not as reactive..

Some very brilliant (hehe) representative pics:

I think that Neptune, like with the other outer planets Uranus and Pluto, can indeed be challenging, but it can also be obviously positive. These 3 planets have an influence that is mainly difficult but mixed. I think that people who think of Neptune as being totally malefic do not understand it properly.

I have experienced Neptune positively. It was exactly trine my Mercury when I passed my driving test - I'm sure that must have been something to do with it. A harmonious outer planet transit - hence a positive new experience in relation to local transport and getting around locally. At the time the experience seemed unreal - too good to be true.

So yeah, while a hard outer planet transit is likely to bring changes that are difficult to cope with, a harmonious one may well bring changes that are clearly positive.

Pi Thagoras said:

It seems to me that more than anything Neptune rules perception. Experience affects perception. Drugs merely provide a certain experience. The drug and alcohol connection to Neptune influence over perception, which includes the tendency to withdraw to an internal world (escaping reality through a chemical change of perception).

It's obviously a subjective issue on drug use anyway, as many partisans on both sides are staunch defenders of their positions as pro-drug or anti-drug and each can parade a number of examples to support their contentions.

It really comes down to other planetary influences and personal choice. The empirical understanding is that experience + genetics creates the individual personality. The astrological understanding replaces genetics with the position of the planets. Both perceptions are parallel to the understanding of the self, the universe and reality and the evidence points strongly to the role of Neptune's immense influence over experience shaping perception and Astrology in general.

Neptune's hierarchy in a chart reading should probably be placed at least in the same bracket as Pluto, if not higher. Perception shapes every thing we do. A more attuned Neptune allows deeper understanding and more choices. A poorly attuned Neptune denies the native the ability to see what is really before him, limiting choices and experience. It creates a negative feedback loop, and with a weak Saturn or Venus, will probably be a life-long affliction absent any other mitigating factors.

It all points to a serious need to assess what the weight the outer planets are given in a chart. It seems to me they have the most power over the path of destiny via the cumulative sum of a individuals action and reaction with the environment (individual seeking balance against the universe - very Piscean symbol of seeming contradiction that represents a delicate balance that underpins the entire framework of Universal Principle). It's also very revealing how discussion from multiple perceptions allows us to move forward in our understanding. Individual perception shapes the groups understanding and therefore destiny. That's the power and lesson of Neptune. Fail to learn it at our peril. Look to the Dark Ages if there are any questions.

Note: Intuition/instinct would be the binary of perception and both should be considered two parts of a whole. Aquarius would seem to represent inductive logic (inspiration), the purest combination of air and water. The inspiration is contained in the Water-Bearer's bucket. Uranus seems to rule pure logic, with Mercury ruling logic influenced by personal perspective (Opinion). Could anyone recommend a good breakdown of the Jung's Functions? That would help with understanding planetary assignments of qualities and their influence, and the behavioral psychological functions seem to be the best contemporaneous analog to the elements, qualities and modes. I would also be very interested in any relating to Jung's practice of astrology.

Click to expand...

Interesting post and I agree with the connection between Neptune and Perception. Retrograde Neptune is quite prominent in my chart, part of a stellium that also includes the Moon and Mars, and I am extraordinarily sensitive and notice things most people don't, and these perceptions can have very deeply emotional, and dare I say mystical, impacts on me. I can walk into a room and just feel the emotions in it so such an extent that I my emotional self merges with it.

I have Neptune in the 4th house of home and family, and, I have a very compassionate and kind family; and no, there is nothing hidden or foggy about it. Each one of us is also spiritual in some way or the other.

perhaps you would like to read a thread I just posted yesterday at:

natal astrology > Neptune in the 6th

It's short, but I was addressing more positive aspects of Neptune

The_Sundance_Kid said:

I have never seen a chart where Neptune really manifests itself positively.

It always seems to confuse, alienate, isolate, and scandalise things. People turn to escapism, do not achieve their potential etc. Forget artistic inspiration. People who really seem talented in the arts all seem to have Jupiter, Venus or Pluto issues, and Pluto is the planet that sees the truth and touches the universal consciousness. I would think that these are the qualities of good art. Forget spiritualism. I have only seen Neptune manifest itself in pointless martyrdom and self loathing. Real spiritualism I have seen in Jupiter with its compassion, or Uranus with its humanitarianism. Spiritualism is not completely passive as Neptune seems to suggest.

So I think Neptune is a false prophet. From an age that thought it had mastered the world and science, only to be dumbfounded by Pluto and the Bomb.

Anyone with me?

Click to expand...

I am! Sun-Neptune square here. Want to see solar creative forces diminished to fantasies and illusions and disappointments? Call on Neptune.
I once wrote in another forum that Neptune was equivalent to Satan. Boy did the deluded come after me on that one.

If being inspired to believe what is not real is real, call on Neptune. If being inspired to be a doormat for those who are awful in character - by choice or circumstance appeals to you, then call on Neptune.

Look at the recent Japan sunami. One can prepare all they want for earthly destruction (quakes, tornadoes, etc.) but get the water of world involved and you don't have a bats chance in hell.

Neptune is as close to death as one can be - the ultimate anesthesia.

"Oh, well....I guess it was meant to be."

I have neptune in 5th house (sag)sextile pluto(libra) in 3rd. My love story could easily be turned into a novel and it is no fiction at all. In fact, one day I may be writing about it when the moment comes...all the time when I was in love with this person, I felt I live in a fantasy with everything so confusing and beautiful. well, I am a very down-to-earth type, with capricorn sun; mercury capricorn conjunct venus capricorn. I swear normally I would be the last one to be expected to participate in a romantic episode. ...The filmy confusing energy from neptune really freaked me out... But it happened...

The result of the romance, of course, is heart-breaking... I call it a 'little mermaid syndrom', the poster girl for neptunian qualities...(but hey! who would expect me to be a little mermaid????I AM A HARDCORE CAPRICORN!!!) if people trying to judge from the end result of the story, you would easily land to the conclusion that neptune is malefic. However, i would like to point out the fact that any single award-winning love story would not be a piece of mundane work with an easily happy ending. usually, the love story involves lots of misunderstanding which lead to regrets. Which was exactly what has happened to me....For this reason, I say that I have personally experienced the best romance ever because my love was so thorough and so pure, that I was willing to sacrifice. Love also gives me strength.

The experience obviously make me learn alot of things about myself and meaning of love. Pluto's involvement probably adds some element of transcendency as well.

I don't know about neptune's involvement in other house but I guess the dream and confusion brought by neptune must be a source of artistic inspiration, although there is a price to pay. There's a price demanded by every planet. Saturn demand hard work, uranus ask us to tolerate volatility, neptune, confusion, with pluto we have to take the pain to transform ourselves. Even with Jupiter, we have to pay with the tendency to get exessive, only at a later stage...

To summarize, blame neptune for disillusion/confusion/disappointment without giving merit to its good qualities is unjust.

"To summarize, blame neptune for disillusion/confusion/disappointment without giving merit to its good qualities is unjust. "

Marie Osmond - In My Little Corner of the World...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlxo87oIenU

Why ask if it's a "malefic" and then defend it ?

Neptune is selfishly selfless. The way I see it - personal experience (Sun-Neptune square, Venus in Pisces, South Node conj. Chiron Pisces) it has a front end and a back end.

The front end sees the truth of a situation immediately and convinces itself, "It's not as bad as it seems. Everything will work out fine..."

Back end sees the reality of delusion, "How could this have happened? Why? Why?!"

The only value of Neptune is that it senses and sees the truth early on.

Problem is, it seldom heeds it. Because IT LIKES PAIN! That is why I consider it a Malefic.

Just my opinion.

Neptune is selfishly selfless. \

Click to expand...

This is very well put...

I didnt have time to read everyone's response throughly but Neptune is a big focalizer in my chart (I attached it). Neptune conjunct asc (within 10 degrees) in Scorpio first house, Moon in 1st house conjunct Neptune, Sun sextile Neptune and also Neptune sextile pluto (generational I believe) and trine Chrion. My only major negative aspect is Venus square Neptune - and Venus/Neptune aspects are a story all on their own! Eek!

So, Neptune is very prominent in me. I notice I see many times that it is said that Neptune conjunct Asc people "can not see themselves clearly" - I do not find this to be true for me. I am very sure of the kind of person I am - my beliefs, ideas, what I stand for (this might be because I older so I have gone through changes after changes and transformation after transformation - this is the bane of a Scorpio Rising). I have a few ideas that maybe I am indecisive about but I know I have other placements and aspects in my chart that are responsible for this and I don't think it is my Neptune. What I find is that OTHERS do not see me clearly and I have to fight tooth and nail to get them to see who I truly am and not the person they imagine me to be as it is said that Neptune in the 1st house causes others to see you as a fantasy - in other words, THEIR fantasy - they want you to be what THEY want you to be and have a difficult time seeing the true person. This causes lots of problems for me - people make assumptions about me all the time (in fact, this happened yesterday and I had to set the person straight). I know that many people do this with others - but I swear, it happens to me more than most. And I think it is Neptunes fault.

This said, I dont consider my Neptune aspects bad (except the Square to Venus - that's a pain in the butt). All I have read are positive on them and I consider them unique qualities. My Neptune conjunct Moon (in Sag) and Sun sextile Neptuen loves music, fine arts, films etc and yes I use them as a form of escapism and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I never saw it as a negative. These also make me a compassionate person. The Neptune in the 1st gives me lots of intuition. I feel I am also slightly psychic but I am not sure exactly how to use it all the time. My sixth sense is very right on.

Because I have Neptune in the 1st house - I have never used drugs or anything like that for my escapism. In fact, I don't see the point of wasting money on this stuff and I never have. Why do Neptunians like me need to escape? Because we are like energy sponges who absorb lots from our surroundings and it is honestly exhausting and we need time to "get away and escape" to give ourselves a break. For me, esp. the "people misunderstaning me" is the most exhausting. I have learned to deal with the "sponge" stuff ( I honestly thought everyone felt that way - until I realized it is just us very Neptuney people) and have excepted that I need time to recharge but the outside influence of others from my Neptune is the difficult part. I can change and control my own Neptune but I can't seem to change how it makes others see me - even those people that get to know the real me, they still want to hold on to that fantasy version they had of me in the beginning - even if I shatter it.

I do tend to sometimes like the escapism too much and I get too comfortable in it esp. if reality is causing me pain and problems. Sleeping and dreaming esp - oh, I could sleep forever - probably because it too is a form of escapism.

Lots of actors and actresses and models have Neptune conjunct asc because it makes it easy to become a "fantasy" to someone else - that is why they have so many stalkers.

I guess because I don't fall into any of the self-destructive Neptune escapes (drug, alcohol etc) that this is why I don't see it as a big negative. Sure it can cause problems for me - if I let it. Being aware of it is important because than I can catch myself in it if I can get too comfortable with it and use to "hide" away too much. But in todays world, who doesn't want to "hide away" sometimes? Good thing I am very practiced at it because when those times come I can easily slip right into "escape mode".