Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

ardentika

Well-known member
Thank you for your point of view. Our perspectives are just at odds and potentially damaging to the other so I’m gonna let this go. I don’t see myself as just a victim of fate though. I’m not sure there’s a point in having discussions like these.

Actually though on the issue of predictions and timing, traditional astrology and Vedic I think attempt to make the predictions you claim you’ve never seen done regarding meeting a spouse at x age etc.

I know many people who see fate in a different way, it's just a percpective I think . Someone who didn't have the best life wouldn't be happy to know it's fate, cos then it brings the question "Am I destined to suffer? Is this how my life will be?" you know?

And I gave this prediction as an example, but still I haven't seen much accurate predictions done with Vedic or traditional.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
We are all struggling to understand the reason for our existence and why in one way not the other, how much role fate plays in our lives because we tend to mix different sytems, different theories, different fields etc., I say stick to one system and work it out till you are satisfied completely, if you don't get answers and then move to another system.

I personally have a problem with the arrogance of scientific reasoning and scientific minded people. Science as we know is an offshoot of the medieval renaissance, scientists almost all forgot their roots while some don't even know how science came into existence how science was practised along with natural, occult and religion and make fun of the people who have such views as if these people are not evolved and plain stupid.

That is why I stick to old wisdom, old traditions, and occult. I can say with conviction if you mix systems you will end up nowhere.


edit: if any of you wondering why this comment, it may help you to know what science is doing in the areas you are interested but don't consider it as an authority till you can validate it yourself. These scientists wanted to demote Pluto from a planet because of stupid reasons, that is how stupid scientists are, dogmatic and ego driven.
 
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moonkat235

Well-known member
I know many people who see fate in a different way, it's just a percpective I think . Someone who didn't have the best life wouldn't be happy to know it's fate, cos then it brings the question "Am I destined to suffer? Is this how my life will be?" you know?

And I gave this prediction as an example, but still I haven't seen much accurate predictions done with Vedic or traditional.

I am sure you would ask those questions and feel upset if you believed fate had overriding power. This is why it’s unnecessary to continue. Your implication that those who believe in fate and still feel positive haven’t suffered as much or enough is erroneous in many ways.
 

david starling

Well-known member
We are all struggling to understand the reason for our existence and why in one way not the other, how much role fate plays in our lives because we tend to mix different sytems, different theories, different fields etc., I say stick to one system and work it out till you are satisfied completely, if you don't get answers and then move to another system.

I personally have a problem with the arrogance of scientific reasoning and scientific minded people. Science as we know is an offshoot of the medieval renaissance, scientists almost all forgot their roots while some don't even know how science came into existence how science was practised along with natural, occult and religion and make fun of the people who have such views as if these people are not evolved and plain stupid.

That is why I stick to old wisdom, old traditions, and occult. I can say with conviction if you mix systems you will end up nowhere.


edit: if any of you wondering why this comment, it may help you to know what science is doing in the areas you are interested but don't consider it as an authority till you can validate it yourself. These scientists wanted to demote Pluto from a planet because of stupid reasons, that is how stupid scientists are, dogmatic and ego driven.

Traditionalistic astrology rejected the old ways and tried to formulate a materialistic reason for why astrology works. It was based on climate and rays of light. It led to the development of Modern materialistic science. Some "Traditional" astrologers today sneer at Modernistic astrologers who consider the archetypal deities, part of astrology going back over 5000 years ago, to be astrologically important in interpreting the meanings of the planetary significations.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Did gods and goddesses not exist in the times of ancient astrologers?

You seem to be a master at distracting, if you want to convey modern astrology is superior because it has backing by psychology then don't bother. I don't want to go restate all my arugments again and again.

The point I made was to call out the dangers in mixing occult and science and getting lost on the way as some users seem to talk about conscious and subsconcious. I know about polynesian shamanism which talks about subconscious minds.
 

david starling

Well-known member
You seem to be a master at distracting, if you want to convey modern astrology is superior because it has backing by psychology then don't bother. I don't want to go restate all my arugments again and again.

The point I made was to call out the dangers in mixing occult and science and getting lost on the way as some users seem to talk about conscious and subsconcious. I know about polynesian shamanism which talks about subconscious minds.

Not "psychology", just Jung and Freud, who were steeped in the ancient occult wisdom. Jung translated it into modern-day terminology. Both are largely discredited by today's professional-pschology hierarchy.
I'm curious as to whether you include Pluto as a ruler of Scorpio. That's forbidden in what has become labeled as "Traditional" astrology.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Not "psychology", just Jung and Freud, who were steeped in the ancient occult wisdom. Jung translated it into modern-day terminology. Both are largely discredited by today's professional-pschology hierarchy.
I'm curious as to whether you include Pluto as a ruler of Scorpio. That's forbidden in what has become labeled as "Traditional" astrology.


I don't know about it, you mean to say they are discredited because they are influenced by occultism? All human knowledge has some roots in occultism but people like to feel special they can't accept that their knowledge is already existent in some old wisdom. Science is a sect or some elite club which thinks they alone know the secrets of universe, what can be more delusional than that! :lol:

All the funding in science in understanding about univese should be cut down and instead put into some good use like how to clean the planet from astronomical quantities of wastes.

I don't consider Pluto as a ruler of Scorpio and comparing a bada** god like Hades to a feminine sign like Scorpio, how modern you have to get to even consider that?
 

david starling

Well-known member
I don't know about it, you mean to say they are discredited because they are influenced by occultism? All human knowledge has some roots in occultism but people like to feel special they can't accept that their knowledge is already existent in some old wisdom. Science is a sect or some elite club which thinks they alone know the secrets of universe, what can be more delusional than that! :lol:

All the funding in science in understanding about univese should be cut down and instead put into some good use like how to clean the planet from astronomical quantities of wastes.

I don't consider Pluto as a ruler of Scorpio and comparing a bada** god like Hades to a feminine sign like Scorpio, how modern you have to get to even consider that?

Good! So, you do consider the "mythology" associated with the planets as important. Now, how do we explain why, in "Traditional" astrology, a masculine planet can rule a feminine Sign in the case of, say, Jupiter ruling Pisces?
 

david starling

Well-known member
Of course, there's the bada** "male" planet Saturn ruling a "feminine" Sign, Capricorn. And the "Bull" a "feminine" Sign with a male symbol, being ruled by a female planet, Venus, which also rules a "masculine" Sign, Libra? Ptolemy's explanation for why the Moon and Sun rule only one Sign each, was that the Sun was "too masculine" to rule a "feminine" Sign, and the Moon was "too feminine" to rule a "masculine" Sign.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I like that you used "Hades" instead of "Pluto", because the place known as Hades had a queen. In ancient Sumeria she was known as Ereshkigal, and in ancient Greece, Persephone. In ancient Egypt, Isis ruled the underworld along side of Osirus. So, that would be the gender matchup, if you insist on gender correspondence between Signs and Rulers.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Good! So, you do consider the "mythology" associated with the planets as important. Now, how do we explain why, in "Traditional" astrology, a masculine planet can rule a feminine Sign in the case of, say, Jupiter ruling Pisces?

I knew you would ask this but thought you would ask why Mars for Scorpion then. And yes I do believe in mythology and myths are incredibly powerful and I'm heavily influenced by Joseph Campbell.

To your question, the rulership of signs in traditional astrology is mainly done with the symmetry seen in thema mundi with good enough logic but I think it worked out neatly considering the mode, element, temperament, and gender in accordance with the rulers where a sign can find its maxium expression.

For eg., Jupiter is a diurnal, moderately hot and moist, masculine planet, associated with air and sanguine temperament.

Pisces is a mutable, feminine, nocturnal sign associated with phlegmatic temperament.

If you put some other planet keeping one or two elements it will cause imbalance or push the elements to extremes or incompatibilty between elements or temperaments to the extremes. Only luminaries were given extreme expression in their signs in both element and temperament along with same gender.

Symmetry is beauty, beauty is truth.

On a side note I think in the book by Robert Svoboda on Jyotisha he talks about mythic story of assinging rulership based on how those planetary gods came quickly and grabbed the signs, like first come first served. It is very difficult to say if the myth influenced the reasoning behind thema mundi or thema mundi gave birth to the Indian myth but it does not matter.

It worked out perfectly.
 
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lostinstars

Well-known member
I like that you used "Hades" instead of "Pluto", because the place known as Hades had a queen. In ancient Sumeria she was known as Ereshkigal, and in ancient Greece, Persephone. In ancient Egypt, Isis ruled the underworld along side of Osirus. So, that would be the gender matchup, if you insist on gender correspondence between Signs and Rulers.

True but it is very difficult to say when a myth travelled from one culture to another, there are no experts any more. Arguing about who came first is totally waste of time. All cultures had same kind of gods and goddesses and when some influence came another culture either new features were added to them or left intact depending on the people.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Of course, there's the bada** "male" planet Saturn ruling a "feminine" Sign, Capricorn. And the "Bull" a "feminine" Sign with a male symbol, being ruled by a female planet, Venus, which also rules a "masculine" Sign, Libra? Ptolemy's explanation for why the Moon and Sun rule only one Sign each, was that the Sun was "too masculine" to rule a "feminine" Sign, and the Moon was "too feminine" to rule a "masculine" Sign.

I think I answered in my explanation on the rulerships.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Yes, I understand and appreciate symmetry. The 7/12 pattern has it, the 10/12 Modernistic pattern does not. But there are important archetypal deities missing in 7/12, which are present and accounted for in "Modern". I felt compelled to go beyond the 10/12 pattern for reasons of symmetry, but my 12/12 pattern is probably too "Modern" for you.
What I really like about Modernistic astrology is that you're allowed to be creative, and think for yourself. In "Traditional", you're stuck with the opinions of relatively few authors, whose work managed to survive over the many centuries.
 
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lostinstars

Well-known member
But there are important archetypal deities missing in 7/12, which are present and accounted for in "Modern". I felt compelled to go beyond the 10/12 pattern for reasons of symmetry, but my 12/12 pattern is probably too "Modern" for you.

The problem with archetypes is there is no end to them some are concrete, very realistic, some are subtle but it depends on the amount of influence. If an archetype has more power people accept it and take it into consideration.

You know why Pluto is blamed for addictions? Because the power of Mars is shifted to Pluto and addiction stems from powerlessnes in one's life. Your actions are not giving any result you want, you will be in so much pain you will soothe yourself with addictions.

If you see the mythology Mars is the god of war, a true form of power while Hades is ruler of underworld, totally two different forms of power. Modern astrology found Hades enticing enough to assign him to be the ruler of Scorpio because Scorpio is a dark mysterious sign, this is all nonsense.

In traditional astrology addictions are primarily because of ill dignified Venus and it is very logical considering the planet is all about pleasure. Pleasure taken to an extreme with no control is addiction. Where is the need for archetypes that are missing as you say?
 
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david starling

Well-known member
To get back on topic :biggrin:, the ancient Greeks had the Three Fates. The first was Clotho, "the spinner", who wove the life. The other two measured its length and ended it. So, the question would be, was this now relatively unknown goddess Clotho, the one who determined the actual events of one's life, or just the quality of one's character (as in "showing what you're made of")? Then, that quality would determine how you use your free-will to deal with life's challenges. And, no one should be blamed for having less than admirable character, or credited for accomplishments made possible by being of high character. That was Clotho's doing.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
To get back on topic :biggrin:, the ancient Greeks had the Three Fates. The first was Clotho, "the spinner", who wove the life. The other two measured its length and ended it. So, the question would be, was this now relatively unknown goddess Clotho, the one who determined the actual events of one's life, or just the quality of one's character (as in "showing what you're made of")? Then, that quality would determine how you use your free-will to deal with life's challenges. And, no one should be blamed for having less than admirable character, or credited for accomplishments made possible by being of high character. That was Clotho's doing.


You are not only a master but a grandmaster at dodging and distracting :lol:
 

david starling

Well-known member
The problem with archetypes is there is no end to them some are concrete, very realistic, some are subtle but it depends on the amount of influence. If an archetype has more power people accept it and take it into consideration.

You know why Pluto is blamed for addictions? Because the power of Mars is shifted to Pluto and addiction stems from powerlessnes in one's life. Your actions are not giving any result you want, you will be in so much pain you will soothe yourself with addictions.

If you see the mythology Mars is the god of war, a true form of power while Hades is ruler of underworld, totally two different forms of power. Modern astrology found Hades enticing enough to assign him to be the ruler of Scorpio because Scorpio is a dark mysterious sign, this is all nonsense.

In traditional astrology addictions are primarily because of ill dignified Venus and it is very logical considering the planet is all about pleasure. Pleasure taken to an extreme with no control is addiction. Where is the need for archetypes that are missing as you say?

Osirus/Hades/Pluto was no minor archetype. Neither was Poseidon/Neptune. Neptune is blamed for addictions in "Modern", Pluto for obsessions.
 
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