Utah Miners

Oh, I'm not arguing against using psychological astrology in a horary chart, by any means. I use it frequently...when it is relevant to the question. To quote Freud: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Perhaps the confusion lies in the fact that 20questions said they were interested in this event, but that the chart actually has nothing to do with 20questions. The first challenge in these sorts of charts, I find, is who signifies what, and from which houses, and figuring that out comes with long practice. Even then, sometimes very experienced astrologers disagree!

AG

I know, I know AG!! No inconjuncts, but stubborn me, after having read Anthony Louis's book who does use inconjuncts, I am always tempted. Maybe because I have studied the inconjunct in-depth in natal astrology because I just HAD to know what it meant in my natal chart (Moon inconj. Uranus and Mars and Mars ruler of my Ascendant). I ordered this book about problem solving in horary today,(Marc Edmund Jones) cant wait to receive it!! I am also considering the book" hooked on Horary, Volume III" from Joan McEvers, as I am a horary junky by now, !!

Ah, Starlink,

Draco said something funny about most horary astrologers being grim Saturn types, and this describes me perfectly! I love my traditional methods. (I'm not closed to modern stuff, necessarily, but I need to see *proof* that it works first! ).

AG

archergirl said:

To quote Freud: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

AG

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So true--lol.. I'll have to keep that in mind so I don't "draw in dots to connect".

archergirl said:

A void of course Moon is a warning that 'nothing will come of the matter'; in the case of this question, it most likely means that all of our extrapolating is an exercise in futility.

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but why is it futile? that's what I like to know. mars is the moon's dispositor, isn't he ? that has some effect doesn't it ? I don't think it overrides the voc or anything.. but perhaps there is some subtle meaning.

**

also when I used the radical houses, making the quesited a different party I was able to arrive at signs indicating a lawsuit possibly against the mining company by the family, which as I read in an article today is most likely going to go down in the near future. I perceived this when I used the radical houses. maybe this is me "drawing in dots" again, but in a way that the chart supports and alludes to.

Hi Ra-d,

In many charts you can use both the radix AND turned houses; this is used frequently in questions pertaining to death and illness, actually. So, for example, you can look at the turned houses of death for whoever the subject of the chart is (my grandmother, for example, the radix 7th, so the 4th and 8th houses from the 7th), and then look at the significators for the 4th and 8th in the radix chart, and any applications. I'm not sure why this works, but it does. So I'm sure you're right about the lawsuit. The whole episode is a catastrophe; I only pray that the miners, if they indeed did die (which seems highly likely), died quickly. A long slow death in the dark is not my idea of 'a good death'.

mars is the moon's dispositor, isn't he ? that has some effect doesn't it ? I don't think it overrides the voc or anything.. but perhaps there is some subtle meaning.

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Yes, I'm sure you're right. But for whatever reason, this chart (or perhaps the question itself) is flawed; with the Moon being in Via Combusta as Starlink pointed out, the situation itself is very unstable. The Moon is in VERY bad shape: in fall, VOC, in a cadent house, disposed by a malefic; this should be taken as a general warning about the chart itself. Read at our peril, I suppose.

AG

archergirl said:

Hi Ra-d,
A long slow death in the dark is not my idea of 'a good death'.

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yeah, I aggree.

archergirl said:

Yes, I'm sure you're right. But for whatever reason, this chart (or perhaps the question itself) is flawed; with the Moon being in Via Combusta as Starlink pointed out, the situation itself is very unstable. The Moon is in VERY bad shape: in fall, VOC, in a cadent house, disposed by a malefic; this should be taken as a general warning about the chart itself. Read at our peril, I suppose.

AG

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The reception of the mars by moon is making sense to me..

the moon is in a really bad state, but being received by mars, its house, it being a "guest" in normally hostile environment I think shows that there will be consolation from the death, perhaps as remuneration (money).

the family as the news has described is angry that rescuers & the mining company aren't trying hard enough, so they think anyway--the consolation may be money from the company, why do I say that?

well the news says the mining company is interested in mining at the location of the tragedy still because there are still coal deposits worth money (but they obviously don't want the family to know this). Maybe the company will be giving some of the proceeds from any future ventures to the family--whether they want to, or not. This could be the real grounds for lawsuit, the final nail in the coffin for the family.

unless that is, being disposed by the *malefic*, big offender in this chart means there is no consolation at all.. still the grounds for lawsuit..

Oh common AG, I cannot imagine you being a GRIM Saturn type! You are just a good teacher, and we need that here in the Forum because lots of us have strong Neptunes in our natal charts and lots of Gemini, very nice but at times a bit superficial and the combi makes for great imagination and less down to earthness so to speak.( I am talking about generalities here, no one in particular) So a good anchor is needed here!!

Oh yes Ra, you could be very right there. I would not be surprised at all, in the end all that matters to them is making money by mining more coal. How sad all this is, just awful.

he moon is in a really bad state, but being received by mars, its house, it being a "guest" in normally hostile environment I think shows that there will be consolation from the death, perhaps as remuneration (money).

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I don't see where you are getting this from the chart. That the Moon is disposited by Mars has nothing to do with money, or consolation; Mars is utterly peregrine, and as it rules the house of imprisonment in this chart, offers only the idea that the miners have been imprisoned; as the 12th is also the house of self-undoing, the miners brought it upon themselves somehow. The Moon views Mars by face; Mars views Mercury by face; Mercury views Mars by term AND face; so they are all linked. The VOC moon is still VOC, however; and usually it signifies that nothing further will come of the matter, full stop. This may show that the search for them has been/will be called off, and no-one will know for sure; discovering 'their fate'? Nothing will come of the matter. They are buried.

Remember, this question is only about the *fate of the miners*, not about whether the families will sue or whether the mine will continue to operate: those things are separate from the life or death issue of the miners themselves. To search for those other things in a chart with an early ascendant and such a debilitated, void moon may not yield the answers one would like.

Perhaps an *event* chart for the time of the collapse of the mine would be a valuable tool to look at, and may show these other things much better. Event charts tend to have a better 'big picture' focus (and are really more appropriate than horary charts for widely-publicized things: see the 'Find Madeleine thread' for several heated arguments about this). Horary is more specific; the question makes the answer. .

Cheers,
AG

I was also wondering what the significance of Mercury's imminent change to Virgo, its place of exaltation, means. I had considered whether the miners would be found and brought out of the mine (being 'lifted' by exaltation, and moving out from under combustion of the Sun). This is a possibility, I suppose, but with everything else so malefic, and the VOC moon, I suspect this chance is slim.

AG

archergirl said:

I don't see where you are getting this from the chart. That the Moon is disposited by Mars has nothing to do with money, or consolation;

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looking at how mars applied to the radical houses and their rulers I was using, this was a conjecture of mine. since you weren't doing that, of course it wouldn't make sense to you.

Remember, this question is only about the *fate of the miners*, not about whether the families will sue or whether the mine will continue to operate: those things are separate from the life or death issue of the miners themselves.

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yes i know ? doesn't mean peripheral information is not being conveyed within the chart. the family suing stuff is not obvious, apparent or direct in any concrete form in the chart, it is suggested conjecture that may apply to the situation. nothing wrong with illustrating what you think the chart *also* describes. as things progress only then can we prove that such is irrelevant.

I can see you are focused on the specifics and the relevant, I am too, however I also like to look as deep and wide as I can. It is after all only relative speculation isn't it?

-rayA

archergirl said:

I was also wondering what the significance of Mercury's imminent change to Virgo, its place of exaltation, means. I had considered whether the miners would be found and brought out of the mine (being 'lifted' by exaltation, and moving out from under combustion of the Sun). This is a possibility, I suppose, but with everything else so malefic, and the VOC moon, I suspect this chance is slim.

AG

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It brings to me the idea of "details" possibly coming to light.

But Ra-d,

I *was* using the radical houses, with the miners taking the first. You were using a turned chart, with the 4th or whatever as the signficator. That's not a radical chart; that's a turned one.

doesn't mean peripheral information is not being conveyed within the chart. the family suing stuff is not obvious, apparent or direct in any concrete form in the chart, it is suggested conjecture that may apply to the situation. nothing wrong with illustrating what you think the chart *also* describes. as things progress only then can we prove that such is irrelevant.

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No it doesn't, and no there's nothing 'wrong' with it, but I personally think conjecture in horary is a dangerous road to follow. I wouldn't spend my 50 bucks on an astrologer who conjectured that my chart said such-and-such, that's for sure. I'd want one that stuck to the question, and the facts! What about if this was a health question, and the astrologer conjectured that you had terminal cancer, when you asked a question about a minor surgery? Mix art with discretion, Lilly said, and it applies in every chart you do.

AG

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archergirl said:

But Ra-d,

I *was* using the radical houses, with the miners taking the first. You were using a turned chart, with the 4th or whatever as the signficator. That's not a radical chart; that's a turned one.

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well, whatever, you know what i'm trying to express, we weren't using the same methods so why would you have the same insights or therefore understand mine clearly? that is the point. do we really need to get into semantics?

No it doesn't, and no there's nothing 'wrong' with it, but I personally think conjecture in horary is a dangerous road to follow. I wouldn't spend my 50 bucks on an astrologer who conjectured that my chart said such-and-such, that's for sure. I'd want one that stuck to the question, and the facts!

AG

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of course it's a dangerous road! i completely agree! but:

no one was paying me and I already covered lividly with my long post the "facts" of the chart. I already stated what was "fact", the other things we are discussing currently are my speculations, suspicions, and conjecture.

through experience so far I have found that these prompts/suspicions often ring true in the background or lead somewhere. I would not, if someone was paying me say something that is only an educated guess. looking at the turned charts and putting suggestions out there was for my own pleasure and execution of my fascination. hm.. why are we talking about this again ?

anyway, each reader is entilted to their own perception.

rayA

No, I absolutely agree, everyone has different methods. For me, the VOC moon in such bad shape is enough to avoid any kind of extrapolation on the chart, really; and what with the early ascendant, I am quite sure more information will come to light before the end. Hence my caution.

Cheers,
AG

starlink said:

Hi 20! Your question was: what happened to the miners. We still dont know exactly what happened to them, if they are indeed dead and if so, how they died. Could be asfixiation, could be the roof came down. We dont know yet. And that is what the chart also says with a 2° Ascendant. This means: it is still too early to know what exactly happened to them.
If you wânted to know if they died, you probably should have phrased your question differently, like: are the miners dead? than you can look for a yes or no answer. This question leaves a lot open. It can mean "are they dead?" it can also mean "what happened down there?". And I think that your question was understood as such, hence the "too early Ascendant".

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Hi. This is really interesting and on the one hand I am inclined to say "yes": this is a subjective chart...a chart only really reflectling my own subjective concerns and not giving an answer about the status of the miners themselves.... I have had other horaries like this: I will be really invested in a topic and ask a question about it: the horary chart will seem to be saying something objective about the subject of concern but instead, at a closer look,the chart is actually really talking about my very personal reaction to the theme. There is nothing objective being revealed in the horary chart at all. Anyway, that's a big posibilty. The void of course moon and the ascendant at less than 2 degrees seem to champion that interpretation. Clearly there is "not enough information yet". But I'm not sure that rules out other things in the chart. There are very clear cut features in the chart which stand out above everything. Mars is so prominent in the 1st house squaring that conglomoration in the 4th; Jupiter is so well graced by sign and position and plays a prominent role due to being in opposition to mars and square to the planets in the 4th House...and, Neptune in the 10th opposite the 4th planets.? . What does it all mean? Is it all objective commenatary on what happened to the miners. Or does it reflect public concern about what happened to the miners? Or, does it instead reflect my own personal worry about what happened to the miners, being the framer of the question? I figure that these are the important questions when trying to figure out how to analyze charts like these. ...

archergirl said:

Ra - d,

Very good effort at reading the chart. However, you have given the 7th to the miners, when in fact in a question like this where there is no personal involvement (I am assuming; just topical interest), you can go ahead and give the subject of the question to the 1st house.


Cheers,
AG

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Yep, just to emphasize, I was attributing the miners to the 1st house and leaving myself out of the equation- I don't have any personal relationship to them whatsoever. However, on reading Ra's analysis, I am really willing to consider that my own subjective interest is reflected in the chart, if not the focus of it :O....that's the hard part. How does my own involvement change the interpretation?

Hi there 20questions,

The 7th house comment was directed toward Ra-D, not yourself, btw.

What does it all mean? Is it all objective commenatary on what happened to the miners. Or does it reflect public concern about what happened to the miners? Or, does it instead reflect my own personal worry about what happened to the miners, being the framer of the question? I figure that these are the important questions when trying to figure out how to analyze charts like these. ...

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It could reflect all of these; it could reflect none of these. With the early ascendant and that terrible VOC Moon, most traditionally-inclined astrologers would throw the question out without bothering to read it. These were both a part of Lilly's Considerations Before Judging a Chart.

The reason I wouldn't turn this chart, and would use the 1st house to represent the miners as opposed to the 4th or 7th or whatever, despite your 'involvement' in the story, is this: to use the 1st for you, the querent, implies some sort of vested subjective relationship with the outcome of the question; in other words, what happens to the quesited affects you in some way, even if it's only a reflexive result. The 1st represents the self; the 7th or 4th or 11th reflects other people in relation to oneself.

The fact of the matter is, unless you have family amongst the miners, this situation doesn't affect you personally, apart from perhaps being plugged into the collective zeitgeist of it, much the way uninvolved people involve themselves in missing children cases, or whatever.

Therefore, no matter how distraught you may be feeling, the *core* of the question is: what happened to the miners? and not 'how does the fate of the miners affect me?' I think people get over-excited about reading themselves into every chart they do, much like using the 7th house to represent the astrologer in times past. Most of the time, this isn't necessary, and adds to the confusion, especially for students new to horary. Horary is confusing enough! I think your choice of the 1st for the miners was the most sound, 20questions.

Cheers,
AG

archergirl said:

The reason I wouldn't turn this chart, and would use the 1st house to represent the miners as opposed to the 4th or 7th or whatever, despite your 'involvement' in the story, is this: to use the 1st for you, the querent, implies some sort of vested subjective relationship with the outcome of the question; in other words, what happens to the quesited affects you in some way, even if it's only a reflexive result. The 1st represents the self; the 7th or 4th or 11th reflects other people in relation to oneself.

The fact of the matter is, unless you have family amongst the miners, this situation doesn't affect you personally, apart from perhaps being plugged into the collective zeitgeist of it, much the way uninvolved people involve themselves in missing children cases, or whatever.

Therefore, no matter how distraught you may be feeling, the *core* of the question is: what happened to the miners? and not 'how does the fate of the miners affect me?' I think people get over-excited about reading themselves into every chart they do, much like using the 7th house to represent the astrologer in times past. Most of the time, this isn't necessary, and adds to the confusion, especially for students new to horary. Horary is confusing enough!

Cheers,
AG

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Yes, what you just said is my take on it as well and I'm sorry if I came off otherwise. I am actually not interested in my own 'emotional response' to all this at all and that was not my purpose for posting this horary Ugh, I really don't care to make this a discussion about my 'emotional involvement' in the fate of these people. Instead, I sent out this horary asking 'what happened to those miners' and my initial reaction was to take the horary chart as an objective answer to that question. But "Ra... " (sorry 'ra', I don't have your full name on hand!) raised some good points about my own subjetive emotions affecting the chart. I think it's really legitimate. I would like to think that this is a chart objectivively answering the question I asked of it. But "Ra" gave some good points leaning to the side that the chart was in fact just reflecting my own subjective feelings. In that case, there's really nothing objective being answered about the miners' status at all in this chart. I personally think there is something to be gleaned of their fate but I think it's tricky. I want to differentiate the subjuctive from the objective.