Saturn the Greater Malefic

As I mentioned a while back, I'm taking Christopher Warnock's Complete Astrological Magic course, and I've been busy with the homework, so it's all HIS fault that I haven't been on-line for a while!

I made a Venus talisman last summer which I shared on this page. I've had more practice, so I'm going to make a Saturn talisman soon. I attach the chart of the election.

Of course, I wanted to take advantage of Saturn being in domicile; in the election chart I managed to get him close to the ascendant on the Day and Hour of Saturn. The Moon does not appear to be afflicted, although it is a bit slow, but hey! At least it's waxing! If anyone sees something that I don't (in terms of reasons to not use this particular election), do let me know, it's always good to have other eyes looking over things like this.

I've been hesitant up to now to make talismans involving the malefics due to the intense energies involved. It's true that in a day chart, where we find Mars tends to give us difficulties with regard to the topics that the house it finds itself in. Same with Saturn in a night chart. And I have a night chart, so I've been hesitant! Yikes!

But then I came across a quote from Marsilio Ficino: , "You certainly should not neglect the power of Saturn...those who give themselves over to with their whole mind to the divine contemplation signified by Saturn himself can escape his negative influence and receive his propitious power. The Chaldeans, Egyptians and Platonists think that by this method one can avoid the malice of fate." Three Books on Life, Bk III, ch 22.

It got me thinking about the celestial order of the planets, of how Saturn is the closest to the Primum Mobile...

Kabalistically, Saturn is the celestial (or Assiatic) manifestation of the Sphere Binah/Understanding and it is here we find the roots for Saturning signifying esoteric and hidden knowledge; the secrets of magic, astrology and alchemy, and this is leaving aside for now his other positive qualities of giving long life, discipline and stability.

Anyway, I just wanted to briefly share what I've been thinking about over these past few weeks. I plan to engrave a magic square on lead for the Saturn talisman, along with various kabbalistic symbols and Names.

Kind regards

Rhys

With my own chart being nocturnal and having Saturn domicile in Capricorn, angular, I can definitely understand the hesitation in interacting with him.

Still, I've been looking into ways of keeping him "happy," and your method has peeked my interests. Will you post a picture of the finished piece?

Hi Rhys. Do you look at the 28 lunar mansions on that course?

Best wishes

Miquar

Hmm, are you satisfied with having the Moon in the 12th house? I also realize that this is the second election where the Moon's location would be in Sagittarius. Do you have any important natal points in the sign that makes you choose this sign for the moon to be in? Since one should connect the chart in some meaningful way to the natal, so that the talisman has good synergy with the querent.

What about the south node in the 1st? Unconcerned?

Good questions, I'll get back to you them in more detail tomorrow, but for now, I'll share the criteria I've been using for choosing a planetary election. It is so difficult getting everything lined up, that I have been strictly limiting myself to:

1. Planet dignified, preferably by exaltation or sign or multiple
lesser dignities p+4 or more.
2. Rising or culminating, i.e. within 8 degrees of the Ascendant or
Midheaven.
3. Planetary hour.
4. Planet and Moon unafflicted, .i.e. not in detriment, fall,
retrograde, combust, not applying to square or oppose any planet, not
applying to conjoin undignified Saturn, South Node or afflicted
planet, (i.e. detriment, fall, retrograde combust)

All to say that I'm not treating the talisman election like a natal chart...

I am pretty much looking exclusively at one sector of the chart, i.e. the planetary strength of the talismanic planet and simply that the Moon is not afflicted. It was by chance that it happened to be in Sag, obviously if it had been in Scorpio or Capricorn, it would have nixed the election.

I was indeed concerned about south node in the 1st, but figured since they are 29° apart it would be ok. But let me think about that some more.

Thank you for bringing up all these points, I'm re-thinking everything!

All the best - Rhys

miquar said:

Hi Rhys. Do you look at the 28 lunar mansions on that course?

Best wishes

Miquar

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Hi Miquar

The answer to your question is yes. I don't quite have my head around it though, but I'll be studying it in more detail in the coming month.

Kind regards

Rhys

conspiracy theorist said:

Hmm, are you satisfied with having the Moon in the 12th house? I also realize that this is the second election where the Moon's location would be in Sagittarius. Do you have any important natal points in the sign that makes you choose this sign for the moon to be in? Since one should connect the chart in some meaningful way to the natal, so that the talisman has good synergy with the querent.

What about the south node in the 1st? Unconcerned?

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I hope everybody likes my new avatar, I thought that since we are speaking of talismans, I might as well get into the look! It seems appropriate to be discussing Saturn on a Saturday. I have my black candle lit on my altar with an onyx stone in front of it, so I'm all set!

Whilst selecting the talisman election, I was concerned about the very questions that conspiracy theorist posed (cf above) but in spite of that I decided to go with the election for various reasons. I went over those reasons last night and I will share them with you here.

First of all, I am posting the election again, but this time I did it in Solar Fire using a standard wheel with Regiomontanus houses. I also threw in the outer planets in order to make a point, which I'll get to.

You'll see from looking at the chart that we have the Moon in H12, omg! Not only that, but Pluto and the south node are in H1, the same house as Saturn, the planet the election is being made for. And Mars figures into this too, being in the 1st house, ouch! Also, the Moon in Sag happens to be within three degrees of my natal Mars, one might well ask if that is going to pose a problem as well!

The brief answer is that, no, none of that stuff matters in a talisman election chart.

Keep in mind that in traditional talisman making, we draw upon traditional texts for the factors to include in our Talisman. The bible for Talisman making is of course The Picatrix (cf . Book II, Ch 10) We can also draw on texts such as Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy (cf Book II, chapters 22, 29, 30, 32, 35, 38-45) as well as The Greater Key of Solomon (trans S.L. McGregor Mathers).

Some of these texts only require that the talisman be made on the day and hour of the concerned planet. Others require only that the planet be dignified and rising. All to say that we do not concern ourselves with any other factors other than the ones that are called for in the source text we are using.

As a general rule, unless the source text specifically calls for something different, the relevant factors that we look for in choosing a talisman election are as follows:

1. Planet dignified, preferably by exaltation or sign or multiple
lesser dignities p+4 or more.
2. Rising or culminating, ie within 8 degrees of the Ascendant or
Midheaven, note that this is not the same as being in the 1st or 10th
houses...
3. Planetary hour
4. Planet and Moon unafflicted, ie, not in detriment, fall,
retrograde, combust, not applying to square or oppose any planet, not
applying to conjoin undignified Saturn, South Node or afflicted
planet, (ie detriment, fall, retrograde combust)

And yet! I had my doubts, I was really worried about Pluto, Mars and south node being in H1, omg!!! So last night I wrote to the master astrologer/mage (Christopher Warnock) and double checked with him, here is what he wrote back:

"We choose the relevant factors and then find charts based on just
these factors. We ignore everything else, we do not look at chart of
talismans like a natal chart and we don't do synastry between our
natal chart and the talisman chart. The practical reality is that if
you try to control more than about 3-5 factors it makes it very, very
difficult to find a chart. If we don't base the chart on selected
factors, we just end up with a mishmash of charts chosen subjectively
with different criteria for each chart."

I was much relieved when I received this note.

So there you have it.

By the way, Conspiracy Theorist, there is an interesting little book by Israel Regardie that can be downloaded for free in PDF form entitled: How to Make and Use Talismans. It quotes from traditional sources and is the clearest "how-to" text i've come across on the subject. Definitely worth downloading.

Kind regards

Rhys

I'm liking the warlock look m8. I'll be downloading that book by Israel Regardie in short order, too.

In my experience, electional moments are very hard to find. A nasty transit can hang on for a long time, after which some of the beneficial planets have moved out of their previously favourable positions.

Traditionally Saturn rules all kinds of misfortunes but his lessons are patience, hard work, deferred gratification, and frugality. He's also the traditional ruler of agriculture.

My feeling about talismans is that it's better to place one's faith in God, however one defines divine consciousness. Of course, if one doesn't believe in God by whatever name or faith, then it's hard to imagine a cosmos populated by lesser disincarnate entitities such that talismans would have some efficacy. We're otherwise left with a spiritually vacant world-- explained by science.

Nice black hoodie, Rhys.

waybread said:

My feeling about talismans is that it's better to place one's faith in God, however one defines divine consciousness. Of course, if one doesn't believe in God by whatever name or faith, then it's hard to imagine a cosmos populated by lesser disincarnate entitities such that talismans would have some efficacy. We're otherwise left with a spiritually vacant world-- explained by science.

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A cosmos filled with discarnate entitities but with no Supreme Being is certainly not impossible. There are Buddhist Tantras and traditions with various visualization practices, but Buddhism is an entirely non-theistic religion.

Thanks Rhys. I'd be interested to know which books or internet sources are recommended reading for that part of the course, and even to see any material issued as part of the course. There's plenty of stuff about the 27 lunar mansions used in Vedic astrology, but not much about the 28 lunar mansions.

Best wishes

Miquar

miquar said:

Thanks Rhys. I'd be interested to know which books or internet sources are recommended reading for that part of the course, and even to see any material issued as part of the course. There's plenty of stuff about the 27 lunar mansions used in Vedic astrology, but not much about the 28 lunar mansions.

Best wishes

Miquar

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Anthony Louis has it in his book horary simple ...

Thanks Tikana. Was hoping for something as psychologically oriented as possible - thought that electional stuff would be more about the quality of each mansion, while horary would be more about concrete correspondences?

Best wishes

Miquar

petosiris said:

A cosmos filled with discarnate entitities but with no Supreme Being is certainly not impossible. There are Buddhist Tantras and traditions with various visualization practices, but Buddhism is an entirely non-theistic religion.

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Of course it's possible but you don't have to anthropomorphize divine consciousness. That's why I refered to "divine consciousness." Think Chi (qi,) prana, mana, "life force," and so on.

waybread said:

Of course it's possible but you don't have to anthropomorphize divine consciousness. That's why I refered to "divine consciousness." Think Chi (qi,) prana, mana, "life force," and so on.

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There is no similar thing in Buddhism. Are you saying that belief in the Four Elements constitutes belief in god or just protoscience? I am also non-theistic and disbelieve what you say, yet I do believe in the efficacy of talismans or religious practice.

We could discuss Buddhism if it weren't such a huge digression from the OP.

I don't think you understand me, but no matter.

Then on what possible basis could talismans work? I have my answer but I'll hang onto it until I see yours-- or Rhys's answer.

I fail to see where mention was made of an anthropomorphic being, whether by Rhys or any of the subsequent posts.

conspiracy theorist said:

I fail to see where mention was made of an anthropomorphic being, whether by Rhys or any of the subsequent posts.

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It is characteristic of some people to get on this board and make snarky comments on talismans or traditional astrology.

So please answer my question. I can tell you why I think talismans can work (having studied runes at one point in my life) but I'd like to see what you or Rhys say, first.

I haven't made snarky comments on traditional astrology.

Petosiris, what you need to get is that anything short of a loyalty oath to traditional astrology ("Raise your right hand and repeat after me....") is not snarky, in and of itself. We need to hang on to our common sense and faculties of observation, regardless.