The Ugly Side of the Age of Aquarius

Let's look at a more obvious tropical Age, the Age of Sagittarius, which directly preceded the current tropical Age of Capricorn that's coming to a very problematic conclusion. Astrology as we know it developed during that Age, and the ancient Greek culture was at the cutting edge. Notice that Apollo, the god of archery, was called "the most Greek of the gods" and that his father, Zeus (Jupiter), was at the head of the pantheon. The very image for the Sign is the Greek Centaur.
In addition, the ingress of the tropical Age-indicator out of Scorpio and into Sagittarius, around 1300 B.C.E., fits the timeframe for the Exodus story, which is about crossing a body of water and emerging into the hot, dry desert. Symbolically, that's Water (Scorpio) changing to Fire (Sagittarius). This tropical Age was accompanied by another Fire-sign Age, the sidereal Age of Aries, which began a few centuries earlier.

Opal said:

Where are you getting your research from? None of the reading I have done on the Ages has a direct motion.

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It makes sense. The precession caused by the Earth's wobble results in the tropical zodiac rotating Retrograde through the sidereal zodiac, and the boundary of a tropical Sign marks the sidereal Age. But, all motion is relative to what is held in place. With the tropical zodiac held motionless, the constellations rotate through it with Direct motion.
No reason why something as important as the Earth's Ages wouldn't be a factor in the tropical zodiac.

Hi David,

I think I have described this before, but here goes.....

The zodiac circle or Royal Arch in the sky, is traced repeatedly designating different pole stars at different times in it journey through the ages.

The path of the sun around the earth changes 1 degree every 7,200 years. Culminating in a full 360 degree circle over whatever 360 x 7,200 years equals.

When the sun’s path is going from the north to the south pole, it is referred to as The Age of Horrors, because of the extreme weather caused by the path of the sun.

The Tower of Babel was built to protect mankind and crops from the age of Horrors.

Is this what you were asking?

I ask, where do you get your direct motion information on The Ages?

david starling said:

It makes sense. The precession caused by the Earth's wobble results in the tropical zodiac rotating Retrograde through the sidereal zodiac, and the boundary of a tropical Sign marks the sidereal Age. But, all motion is relative to what is held in place. With the tropical zodiac held motionless, the constellations rotate through it with Direct motion.
No reason why something as important as the Earth's Ages wouldn't be a factor in the tropical zodiac.

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Yes, it could. Why the direct motion though? All I have read is of retrograde motion on the Ages.

Opal said:

Hi David,

I think I have described this before, but here goes.....

The zodiac circle or Royal Arch in the sky, is traced repeatedly designating different pole stars at different times in it journey through the ages.

The path of the sun around the earth changes 1 degree every 7,200 years. Culminating in a full 360 degree circle over whatever 360 x 7,200 years equals.

When the sun’s path is going from the north to the south pole, it is referred to as The Age of Horrors, because of the extreme weather caused by the path of the sun.

The Tower of Babel was built to protect mankind and crops from the age of Horrors.

Is this what you were asking?

I ask, where do you get your direct motion information on The Ages?

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Thought you knew. I figured it out in the 1980's on my own. Checked it thoroughly for correlations and logical consistency. I've been referring to it since I joined this Community.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic, although I always enjoy your posts. Your approach to the Ages is mystical and Biblical. Mine is analytical, practical, and down to Earth.

david starling said:

Thought you knew. I figured it out in the 1980's on my own. Checked it thoroughly for correlations and logical consistency. I've been referring to it since I joined this Community.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic, although I always enjoy your posts. Your approach to the Ages is mystical and Biblical. Mine is analytical, practical, and down to Earth.

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I try to use the numbers of precession....... they are the key to me.......

I admire your approach and methodology......I admire original thought......

I was checking to see your source because of it......

We are different David, yet similar......I enjoy reading you, and debating with you!

We don’t have to agree on everything, we just have to inspire each other, and challenge each other......without animosity......

Thank you for your food of thought!

Opal said:

I try to use the numbers of precession....... they are the key to me.......

I admire your approach and methodology......I admire original thought......

I was checking to see your source because of it......

We are different David, yet similar......I enjoy reading you, and debating with you!

We don’t have to agree on everything, we just have to inspire each other, and challenge each other......without animosity......

Thank you for your food of thought!

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Definitely no animosity whatsoever. I have gained some valuable insights from your posts.

Hey, where's our Ancar-man?

Probably waiting for us to shut up and let others play😄!!

david starling said:

Thought you knew. I figured it out in the 1980's on my own. Checked it thoroughly for correlations and logical consistency. I've been referring to it since I joined this Community.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic, although I always enjoy your posts. Your approach to the Ages is mystical and Biblical. Mine is analytical, practical, and down to Earth.

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By the way.....now that I know the source, I am more interested.....I will want to hear more.......

Do your natal Mercury, Jupiter and Uranus contact each other....? or by midpoint?

and no, I didn't know, I just joined here in March.......

Jupiter in Scorpio is close-Trine my late Pisces Sun. I felt like a detective, following the clues to uncover the mystery of the Aquarian Age, as I perceived it. With Conj in Trine in , it makes sense I would focus on that.

david starling said:

Hey, where's our Ancar-man?

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Yeah, I got your pun! It's actually pronounced "AHN-kahr", but it's close enough to be pretty punny - especially if you have a foreign accent!

I actually got off this train several stations back. (I'm phoning this in.) I realized that it was speeding into a byzantine region that I didn't have the background or stamina to explore - and there were only two or three passengers left when I disembarked. Fortunately, I just found a great book to curl up in bed with, which describes this territory from the basics - with pictures, diagrams and everything - so I'll likely get back on board when I've "boned up".

The age of Aquarius seems to be the middle of the procession of ages: from the Virgo birth to the Libra day of judgment. Are we at our peak or are we headed to extinction as a species and as a planet? The procession of ages: Virgo/Pisces is the starting point, 1. Leo/Aquarius, 2. Cancer/Capricorn, 3. Gemini/Sagittarius, 4. Taurus/Scorpio, 5. Aries/Libra, 6. Pisces/Virgo and now: Aquarius/Leo (AD 2000-2020 is the dawn of this new astrological age).

Ancar said:

Eureka! Spot on, David!

It does seem an unrewarding pursuit to try and establish exact dates or boundaries for something as vast in scope as an Astrological Age.

Considering accepted axioms in quantum physics, the forefront of science, such as the Law of Uncertainty, Non-Locality, Quantum Entanglement, Wave-Particle Duality, Electron Clouds (and not "electron orbits"), etc. - not to mention the proposition of multiple dimensions that are actually out there all around us, but our brains are simply not equipped to perceive them - it may be that we struggle too much with mathematically precise Newtonian science in our attempts to determine the exact parameters of intangible concepts that are quite beyond such mechanistic definition. To my knowledge, there is no system of mathematics or coordinates that can explain synchronicity, and for me, an Astrological Age is a kind of synchronicity of the Earth's state of precession, the Zeitgeist, and the concurrent predominant symbology.

This is where we may look at archaeology for the symbology (which, we must not forget, will overlap - there are no rigid boundaries). In the Age of Taurus, the Great Bull of Mesopotamia, Egypt and the Minoans diminishes into the Golden Calf. Then in the Age of Aries, the Mighty Ram becomes the Lamb of God. Then the Fisherman becomes the Fish and is now just a Minnow we see on the car bumpers of some Christians. And with this exciting information from Opal telling us that Burgoyne claims the Age of Aquarius began in the 19th Century, it is rather interesting that some of the most influential HUMANS in the 19th Century were Aquarians: Edison was born on Feb. 11th, Darwin and Lincoln were both born on February 12th. Lincoln has become a symbol as familiar as the bull, ram, and fish in earlier ages - his image is on every US penny, every US $5 bill, and his magnificent monument, inside which a godlike statue of him sits like Zeus in his temple, dominates the capital of the most powerful country of the present era.

PS:
I must confess that in my earlier posts in this thread, I was woefully ignorant in my understanding of "sidereal" in the category "Modernistic Sidereal Astrology". Being an English teacher by profession, "sidereal" (according to the Oxford Dictionary) means "Of or with respect to the distant stars (i.e. the constellations or fixed stars, not the sun or planets)". Given this basic meaning of "sidereal", it is perfectly possible for Tropical Astrology to incorporate sidereal information without crossing "sectarian" lines.

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Ancar, I really like your description of the astrological Ages as being "vast in scope". I discovered that in order to comprehend them more fully, it would take more than a single point, or even a single line. The founder of Modernistic siderealism, Cyril Fagan, gave me the idea. He saw the Age of Pisces as an Age of Aries, ruled by Mars. He knew a Piscean Age would be far more peaceful than what transpired following its beginning, according to his reckoning, in 221 A.D. He also said that since the Age of Pisces was more an Age of Aries, that would mean the Age of Aquarius would be like an Age of Pisces. He stopped there, and pretty much discounted the Vernal Point as a valid Age-indicator.
But, it gave me an idea: The Vernal Point is referred to as the "First Point of [tropical] Aries, which is a constructed 30 degree length of arc. Modernistic siderealism discounts the tropical zodiac altogether, so, i took the nomenclature "First Point of Aries" dropped the name Aries, but kept the entire 30 degree length, using BOTH the first and last points, and called it the "Age Interval". I also dropped the rest of the tropical zodiac, which wasn't needed in the sidereal context. Now I'm using the term "Age Window", because it's the window through which the Ages can be seen in a more comprehensive way.
When the Age Window converged with sidereal Aries, only Aries was visible. The Roman Empire was at its height, and appeared invincible.
I labeled the leading point of the Age Window, the Age-indicator, because it leads the way into the next Sign, in this case signaling the beginning of the Age of sidereal Pisces, and Aries switching from being the "foreground" Age-sign to being the "background" Age-sign. And, that's been a mismatch, because, to use the analogy, Pisces would be acoustic music, soulful, melodic, and low decibel. Whereas Aries would be highly amplified, heavy metal rock. A case of background overwhelming foreground. Although it was enough to end the Roman Empire, the Age of Pisces couldn't contain the warlike influence of Mars, and still can't, on the spiritual level.
I'll stop here, and hope you'll comment.
[Edit] Except to say, the Age Window concept can be applied to the tropical zodiac as well, provided there's a way to place it correctly.

david starling said:

Ancar, I really like your description of the astrological Ages as being "vast in scope". I discovered that in order to comprehend them more fully, it would take more than a single point, or even a single line.

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I appreciate your comment!

david starling said:

The founder of Modernistic siderealism, Cyril Fagan, gave me the idea. He saw the Age of Pisces as an Age of Aries, ruled by Mars. He knew a Piscean Age would be far more peaceful than what transpired following its beginning, according to his reckoning, in 221 A.D. He also said that since the Age of Pisces was more an Age of Aries, that would mean the Age of Aquarius would be like an Age of Pisces. He stopped there, and pretty much discounted the Vernal Point as a valid Age-indicator.

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He should have stopped even before that - I give no credence whatsoever to Cyril Fagan and his his "Neo-Siderealism". His interpretation of the Age of Pisces as an Age of Aries is messed-up nonsense in "my humble opinion". As I have suggested before, the Age of Pisces has manifested not only the positive characteristics of Pisces (i.e., the first time in history that the concepts of selfless love of others, anti-materialism, non-aggression, and willing sacrifice of material wealth for spiritual transcendence - or that an icon such as Jesus - emerged as so significant in the minds of so many) - but also manifested, most unfortunately, the terrible negative "shadow" of Pisces - irrational religious fervor and paranoia, as well as its "flip side", victimization. The victimization (Piscean) resulted from zealous religious conviction (also Piscean) [remember Pisces is two fish swimming in opposite directions] - starting with the brutal humiliation and crucifixion of Jesus, later the massive murders committed by the "spiritually driven" Torquemada and his ghastly Inquisition, the religiously driven Albigensian Crusade, which purged an entire region of devoutly spiritual people who were judged heretical to the "true faith", to the murderous Great "Christian" Crusades themselves, and later the "spiritually inspired" Salem witch burnings, the murderous purging of Protestants by the "good Christian" Queen Bloody Mary, ad nauseum.

david starling said:

But, it gave me an idea: The Vernal Point is referred to as the "First Point of [tropical] Aries, which is a constructed 30 degree length of arc. Modernistic siderealism discounts the tropical zodiac altogether, so, i took the nomenclature "First Point of Aries" dropped the name Aries, but kept the entire 30 degree length, using BOTH the first and last points, and called it the "Age Interval". I also dropped the rest of the tropical zodiac, which wasn't needed in the sidereal context. Now I'm using the term "Age Window", because it's the window through which the Ages can be seen in a more comprehensive way.

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You lost me here. The tropical zodiac based on the Vernal Equinox has proven itself valid throughout the history of Western astrology. The Tropical and Sidereal zodiacs last aligned - "matched up" - near 1 AD, so the juncture of the climax of the Arian Roman Empire and the dawn of Jesus' phenomenal Piscean seachange in the minds of so many seems to make perfect sense.

david starling said:

Pisces would be acoustic music, soulful, melodic, and low decibel.

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Not if irrational paranoia sets in, unpredictably triggered by characteristic Piscean fears and superstitions. Neptunians can too easily go into pathological paranoia without some balance from Saturn or other stabilizing factors. (I have a stellium in Pisces, unfortunately...I know.)

david starling said:

Whereas Aries would be highly amplified, heavy metal rock. A case of background overwhelming foreground. Although it was enough to end the Roman Empire, the Age of Pisces couldn't contain the warlike influence of Mars, and still can't, on the spiritual level.

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On this, I would strongly recommened that you read the 3rd Section of Koestler's Ghost in the Machine. It explains incredible mass violence due to centripetal, integrating "spiritual belief" (which is a Piscean characteristic). Think Inquisition, Crusades, Jihad, ISIS, Northern Ireland, etc.

The best explanation of the Ages that I've ever found is Ray Grasse's Signs of the Times - which, with Grasse's ever-amazing syncretism, elucidates the Tropical Zodiac revolving within the Sidereal Zodiac, two systems that he freely integrates (which has always been my inclination), perhaps including the "windows" that I think you may be referring to (see Appendix One, pp. 237-235). Grasse also points out the aberration that the Age of Cancer, according to traditional Sidereal boundaries of that constellation, would last only last 1000 years - which upsets my gut feeling for balance. I feel that even the Sidereal zodiac should be based on equal degrees for each sign and not on the positions of the particular stars that form the constellation that dominates that sector.

Ancar said:

I appreciate your comment!He should have stopped even before that - I give no credence whatsoever to Cyril Fagan and his his "Neo-Siderealism". His interpretation of the Age of Pisces as an Age of Aries is messed-up nonsense in "my humble opinion". As I have suggested before, the Age of Pisces has manifested not only the positive characteristics of Pisces (i.e., the first time in history that the concepts of selfless love of others, anti-materialism, non-aggression, and willing sacrifice of material wealth for spiritual transcendence - or that an icon such as Jesus - emerged as so significant in the minds of so many) - but also manifested, most unfortunately, the terrible negative "shadow" of Pisces - irrational religious fervor and paranoia, as well as its "flip side", victimization. The victimization (Piscean) resulted from zealous religious conviction (also Piscean) [remember Pisces is two fish swimming in opposite directions] - starting with the brutal humiliation and crucifixion of Jesus, later the massive murders committed by the "spiritually driven" Torquemada and his ghastly Inquisition, the religiously driven Albigensian Crusade, which purged an entire region of devoutly spiritual people who were judged heretical to the "true faith", to the murderous Great "Christian" Crusades themselves, and later the "spiritually inspired" Salem witch burnings, the murderous purging of Protestants by the "good Christian" Queen Bloody Mary, ad nauseum.You lost me here. The tropical zodiac based on the Vernal Equinox has proven itself valid throughout the history of Western astrology. The Tropical and Sidereal zodiacs last aligned - "matched up" - near 1 AD, so the juncture of the climax of the Arian Roman Empire and the dawn of Jesus' phenomenal Piscean seachange in the minds of so many seems to make perfect sense.Not if irrational paranoia sets in, unpredictably triggered by characteristic Piscean fears and superstitions. Neptunians can too easily go into pathological paranoia without some balance from Saturn or other stabilizing factors. (I have a stellium in Pisces, unfortunately...I know.)

On this, I would strongly recommened that you read the 3rd Section of Koestler's Ghost in the Machine. It explains incredible mass violence due to centripetal, integrating "spiritual belief" (which is a Piscean characteristic). Think Inquisition, Crusades, Jihad, ISIS, Northern Ireland, etc.

The best explanation of the Ages that I've ever found is Ray Grasse's Signs of the Times - which, with Grasse's ever-amazing syncretism, elucidates the Tropical Zodiac revolving within the Sidereal Zodiac, two systems that he freely integrates (which has always been my inclination), perhaps including the "windows" that I think you may be referring to (see Appendix One, pp. 237-235). Grasse also points out the aberration that the Age of Cancer, according to traditional Sidereal boundaries of that constellation, would last only last 1000 years - which upsets my gut feeling for balance. I feel that even the Sidereal zodiac should be based on equal degrees for each sign and not on the positions of the particular stars that form the constellation that dominates that sector.

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Most siderealists are using equal Signs. It's only when it comes to the Ages that you have so many tropicalists resorting to the unequal lengths of the constellations to explain the Ages using the Vernal Point which doesn't (can't) move through the tropical zodiac.
If you begin with a premise, and you have to resort to misrepresenting and distorting the Sign Pisces in order to "make it work", time for a new premise: There's another type of Age manifesting along with it. Just as, when a planetary orbit isn't behaving as expected, there's another planetary orbit involved, changing the dynamics. So, it's not the "shadow" side of Pisces , it's the tropical, Earth-sign Age of of Capricorn, ruled by Saturn. The early Roman Catholic Church derived "Satan, Prince of this World" from Saturn , and recognized its power and authority. You can't logically get that from an Age of Pisces, even with a background Age of Aries.
Clearly, the Ages have to be tracked by a transiting point through the zodiac you're actually using to draw Charts. The Vernal Point simply won't make the Ages available in a tropical Chart, but that doesn't mean there's not another astronomical point that can. As for the Age Window concept, I see it as the PART of the Ecliptic, divided into 12 equal, measured Sign-divisions in both tropical and sidereal zodiacs, representing the WHOLE Ecliptic ("The Part Representing the Whole' is a time-honored concept in and of itself).
With the Age Window method, the overlapping of civilizations is easily explained, as well as the overlap of Age Characteristics. Many who have studied the Ages have noted the apparent overlap, which a single point or line doesn't describe.
I'm not discounting the (Retrograde-motion) sidereal Age of Pisces. What I'm saying is, it needs a (Direct-motion) tropical Age to accompany it. And, an Age Window to explain why, for example, the Greco-Roman period is still so important to our Age, whereas the Ancient Egyptian culture remained so relevant during the Greco-Roman period, then dropped to what historians refer to as a "dead culture" in the early part of this Age.

No way a sidereal Age of Pisces alone, without the coincidental, tropical Age of Capricorn, would manifest a Time-ruled Age such as this, with clocks now accurate to a millionth of a second. That's Saturn's doing.

•This tropical Age of the 10th Sign manifested the base-ten decimal system.
•This ambitious, confrontational, materialistic, Western culture would not be the result of a Neptunian-ruled Age of Pisces.
•Just as the Sun enters tropical Capricorn at the darkest time of year, the tropically located Age-indicator entered Capricorn at the beginning of the "Dark Ages".
•The preceding Age of tropical Sagittarius, a Sign represented by the GREEK Centaur, manifested the ancient Greek culture, which had Zeus/(Jupiter) as king of the gods.
•The tropical Age of Scorpio preceding that of Sagittarius, a Sign represented by the Egyptian scorpion, manifested the mortuary culture of ancient Egypt, complete with the rulership of Osirus/(Pluto).
•And, so on and so forth.

Ancar, are you saying that the sidereal Age of Aquarius has already begun, even though with a Year 1 beginning for the Age of sidereal Pisces it won't start until 2149? Because, if there is an ugly side of the Age of Aquarius, it won't manifest until the Aquarian Age actually begins to take effect.

The reason an Age occurs is because of the effect it has on everyone's Natal-chart at once. Some Charts go with it, some go against it. It takes at least one generation for the initial stage to show its aggregate effect.
Without trying to choose between all the various, proposed start-dates, they're close enough to get a general idea concerning when the new civilizations arose relative to the sidereal Ages. Turns out, it's in the middle area. For the Age of Pisces, things coalesced during the Renaissance. Going back to the first sidereal Age on record, it was the beginning of a true city-state culture, including a written language, in the Tigris-Euphrates valley, followed closely by the rise of the First Dynasty in ancient Egypt--that's the middle area of the Age of sidereal Taurus. By the middle portion of the Age of sidereal Aries, several warrior-cultures had developed, and were beginning to form rival empires.
So, I really don't think that the sidereal Age of Aquarius will manifest its true results for at least another 1000 years.