Whole Sign or Placidus?

Dr. Farr--thank you for another informative post. Your knowledge of traditional astrology is really helpful.

I have also read that, in traditional astrology, the cusp wasn't necessarily at the beginning of the house. For some, it was at 5 degrees inwards. For Campanus, it was the centre of the house. Some astrologers think that if a planet is at the boundary between two houses, its influence will be felt primarily in the next house, not the house that it tenants. Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos 1:17) seems to equate signs and houses. In modern astrology using an unequal house system, the cusp isn't necessarily the most powerful point in the house unless it is an angle: any "power" would be conferred the house's tenants (if any), fixed stars, or the like. But your example of 18 degrees throughout the entire horoscope seems more like the equal house system than the whole sign system. What am I missing?

So if you read a chart, how do you understand the transit, for example, of a planet from one sign and house to the next one? How would you time an event using house cusps?

To be honest, I did not read this entire discussion, but would postulate that making a determination about if house systems works based upon cook book definitions of aspects and planetary placement is a very bad idea.


I see Pluto as 'The Great Distiller.' It breaks everything down to it's simplest and most pure form. Pluto in the 11th then would mean that you are capable (over time) of becoming very clear on what you (not your ego, but you) want. It will help you cut the superflous and understand where you really want your life to go. This should not be confused with career. It would also show that you are very clear about the kind of people you want around you. Because of this strong sense of self within the group, people may actually be drawn to you and not realize that it's not you pursuing them, but vice versa. They may see a lot of activity around you and not perceive that you aren't reaching for all of that attention, it's just happening.

Just my opinion.

Waybread:

Using whole sign (which is also called sign/house because the house and the sign are always identical), when a planet first moves into the next house/sign, the affinities of that house begin to be affected by the planet: as the planet moves closer to the cusp (original meaning, ie, the sensitive point) of that house, the influence of the planet upon the affinities of that house become more and more significant, until the maximal influence occurs when the planet conjuncts the cusp (sensitive point) of that house, after which the influences of the planet on the affinities of that house decline, until the planet passes out of that house/sign, into the next house/sign.

Timing is similarly determined re to a planet's conjunction or perfecting of a hermetic aspect to the cusp (sensitive degree) of the particular house.

Remember that these whole sign cusps (sensitive degrees or "points") might fall anywhere in a given house/sign, depending upon where the ascending degree was in the ascending sign. ALL whole sign houses begin at 0 and end at 29:59:59 of the given sign, but the CUSP (sensitive point) can be anywhere within that house (sign) depending upon the ascending degree of the chart. In whole sign the cusps are exact degree-projections of the ascending degree into each of the remaining 11 signs/houses, which tie the cusps (sensitive points) of the houses, to the exact ascending degree of the chart.

Equal house does the same thing EXCEPT that the BEGINNING*of each house is where the exact degree projection of the ascending degree is placed-you can see how close this is to whole sign.

(*the later meaning of the term, cusp, as a border or transitional point from one place to another, one house to another)

Waybread, when it comes to the MC, you treat it as a point like you would with the AC and DC. Admittedly I'm not knowledgeable enough about it to comment on how exactly it should be interpreted, and I won't add my own imaginative thinking to it.

Like dr. farr, I could care less which system was used first or how they originated. I'm only interested in what works. If it doesn't work, I discard it. For instance, I've been trying to get Lilly's Directions to work with my own natal, but I can't see how they do anything. So for now, at least until I can learn more about it, Directions are put on the back burner and labeled as "non-working."

dr. farr also raised an interesting point (hehe) about the cusps of the Houses that I was not aware of. I'll have to do some testing on myself to see if it's actually the case, but it does make sense. It's pretty difficult though, because my AC is 2 degrees XD

Munch provided some good input about the cook book delineations. I believe that to be true as well. To say "my planet feels better here" can be due to any number of reasons. Which is also the reason I believe these "incorrect" house systems have stuck around for so long. Essentially, from the way I see it, they're arriving at the right answers the wrong way. Ordinarily there's no problem with that, because in all honesty, it's the results that matter. However, eventually you're going to end up with the wrong answer, it's only a matter of time. Of course, it's easily written off as "astrology can't predict everything!"

I will say that although I am an enthusiatic follower of whole sign, if you have been successful with any other house system format (or no house system at all, as in Cosmobiolgie) PLEASE keep using whatever works so well for you-as MSO says, it is the results YOU obtain, that count.

Our discussion in this thread is an exploration of thoughts, experiences and historical considerations regarding the various house system models, not an "I'm right you're wrong" debate-all honor to any house system which produces good delineative results in the hands of its followers!

The limitations in using the whole sign system are overcome when one considers the various Divisional charts developed in vedic astrology. The astrlogers can use as many Divisional charts as required all of which are derived from the maiin sign chart , each giving a deeper insight into a particular area of a person's life

Kannan

Quite true; in Western astrology, the Greco/Romans also used a kind of divisional chart in delineation: this was the Fortunata chart, with the Part of Fortune posited in the 1st house and the chart turned to center upon it. And then, too, there was use of decanate based and duodenary based charts, derived from the original chart; we can see, at this earlier time, some similarities in Western practice to the Vedic varga (divisional chart) system.

Kannan said:

The limitations in using the whole sign system are overcome when one considers the various Divisional charts developed in vedic astrology. The astrlogers can use as many Divisional charts as required all of which are derived from the maiin sign chart , each giving a deeper insight into a particular area of a person's life

Kannan

Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with any house system, but I have to say the navamsa (not sure if spelling correctly) is pretty awesome! If I understand it correctly, it's a great addition to my field of knowledge.

I agree that trying to figure this out with one's own chart can be a tricky business, and sometimes thought processes on that are not always reasonable around here...but what about the example I gave above; of an astrologer checking out a client's chart which had clusters of planets in different houses which she felt gave her the good opportunity to test what works in her eyes? And if we don't test the results on our own charts, and not look at professional astrologers research, where next?

If not everyone is interested in the origins of the systems that's fine, but personally I have no interest in following systems that were supported by the powers of the day in a drive to kill the competition, I will never commit to that.

MSO said:

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with any house system, but I have to say the navamsa (not sure if spelling correctly) is pretty awesome! If I understand it correctly, it's a great addition to my field of knowledge.

Click to expand...

Vedic astrology also started originally with sign=house system. Bhava(house) deliniation was added later. Divisional charts were being used from the very beginning and one such D-9 called Navamsa chart is constructed based on constellations running through the 12 signs. Many softwares and authors have explained the method of preparing a Navamsa chart. A Rasi (Sign) chart is invariably read along with a Navamsa chart in Vedic astrology for precise prediction. If Rasi chart is the body , Navamsa is the soul

Kannan

Would it be logical to turn the chart to read houses?

Say for instance you wanted to read more into the 5th House. Turn the chart until the 5th House is on the Ascendant and then read the entire chart as a whole in terms of 5th House affairs. For instance the 6th House in that new chart would be how you have fun at work, and the 12th would be the fun that gets you in prison XD

I don't know if the ancients did that, but it would be pretty cool!

MSO said:

Would it be logical to turn the chart to read houses?

Say for instance you wanted to read more into the 5th House. Turn the chart until the 5th House is on the Ascendant and then read the entire chart as a whole in terms of 5th House affairs. For instance the 6th House in that new chart would be how you have fun at work, and the 12th would be the fun that gets you in prison XD

I don't know if the ancients did that, but it would be pretty cool!

Click to expand...

Derivative houses. Robert Pelletier wrote a whole book about this...Planets in Houses. I am sure there must be others.

http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/rulersofhousesinhouses.html
http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/astrology/LearningAstrology/housesDerived.htm
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/houserulerships.htm

MSO said:

Would it be logical to turn the chart to read houses?
Say for instance you wanted to read more into the 5th House. Turn the chart until the 5th House is on the Ascendant and then read the entire chart as a whole in terms of 5th House affairs. For instance the 6th House in that new chart would be how you have fun at work, and the 12th would be the fun that gets you in prison XD
I don't know if the ancients did that, but it would be pretty cool!

Click to expand...

tsmall said:

Derivative houses. Robert Pelletier wrote a whole book about this...Planets in Houses. I am sure there must be others.

Click to expand...

"Sun Sign Astrology" which is used for newspaper and magazine daily,weekly, monthly, yearly, horoscope prediction puts the Sun on the Ascendant each month along with the current transiting planets, then reads that to make general predictions for every Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo et al.

Some astrology software lets you put any planet on the ascendant

All right, sports fans. Is anyone ready for a real cage match between whole signs and Placidus in predictive astrology?? (or post-dictive, in this case.)

I post some charts for Queen Elizabeth II. The birth times of the British royal family are closely timed. Their lives are highly public. QE2 has lived most of her life, so there is little guessing about how it will turn out.

For a fair test, predictive astrology shouldn't look at a date that affects an entire cohort; and it should be something unanticipated. One of Elizabeth's major unexpected moments came on February 6, 1952 when her father died while she was traveling in Kenya, making her simultaneously a bereaved daughter and the queen of the British Empire. She was touring in Kenya at the time. Her actual coronation occured the following year, but her ascending to the throne was immediate. (Another interesting date would be Jan 20, 1936 when her uncle abdicated, putting her directly into the line of succession.)

I've used the Astrodienst free software for the charts. You can't input a time for a transit or progression which could skew the houses on a progressed chart, they don't do primary directions, and no doubt other limitations.

I am posting 4 charts: 3 in Placidus using modern astrology, and one in whole signs using just the traditional 7 planets. I don't mean to short-change whole-sign advocates, so with the birth data provided please post additional charts if you feel they make your case.

Dr. Farr, a special thanks to you for your teaching moments on traditional astrology. Hopefully you, MOS, JupiterAsc and others will interpret this important moment using the whole sign house system-- or other traditional techniques.

I'll come up with some modern interpretations in my next post here.

MSO said:

Would it be logical to turn the chart to read houses?

Say for instance you wanted to read more into the 5th House. Turn the chart until the 5th House is on the Ascendant and then read the entire chart as a whole in terms of 5th House affairs. For instance the 6th House in that new chart would be how you have fun at work, and the 12th would be the fun that gets you in prison XD

I don't know if the ancients did that, but it would be pretty cool!

Click to expand...

The "Fortunata" chart, famous in Greco/Roman times, is an example of the ancients' use of what amounts to derivative houses (they used whole sign for this) The Part of Fortune was placed as the ascendant, and the chart turned for delineation. There is evidence that the ancients would focus on a particular area of life (place as they called it, house as we would say today), and made it the "ascendant" and turned the chart. And of course we find Modernists (early Modernists) like Vivian Robson and Charles Carter and Manly P. Hall, great advocates of this "focusing" approach (turning the chart to make the subject house of the investigation the "ascendant" of the chart)

I myself have long used the "focusing" (derivative house) approach for deeper delineations, although mostly in astro-medical analysis; it works very well!

Well, an initial couple of observations:

Centering on her defacto elevation to queen upon the death of her father in 1952:
-by Pauline profection of the ascendant, her ascendant profected into her natal 1st whole sign house in 1952, disposited by Saturn, which had also profected back to its natal place in the 11th whole sign house of friends and the Good Spirit AND CONJUNCT HER NATAL MC IN THAT 11TH HOUSE
-the dispositor of that 11th house, Mars, had also profected back to its natal position in Aquarius, disposited by Saturn, so in this profection chart for 1952 Saturn and Mars were in mutual reception
-now, using Pauline profection* to the month of her father's death and her defacto elevation to queen, advancing the ascendant 1 sign (through the natal chart) for each month, for the period Jaunary 21-February 21, the profected ascendant falls in Libra in the 10th whole sign house of honors and elevations, and the profected ascendant is sign conjunct the Part of Fortune: certainly seems indicative of what actually happened; yet when we look at the Placidus natal, the 10th house cusp is in Scorpio, not Libra; the Part of Fortune is in Libra in the Placidus 9th house, not the 10th of honors and advancement...
These are just a couple of things which jump out at me in a superficial look at the natal by profection; but in that whole sign Libra on the 10th with the Part of Fortune profection of the ascendant in the January 21-February 21 period, I suggest we see a closer approximation to what actually happened at that time, than from the Placidus format, which puts the 10th under Scorpio, and puts the January 21-February 21 time period in the 9th house (along with the Part of Fortune in the 9th house), which to me does not seem as descriptive of what actually happened to Elizabeth during that period of time...

(*Pauline profection uses a different start-point in the count of years, than other systems of profection, such as the well-known Egyptian profection method)

Month to month profection (a sub-section of the Pauline annual profection method)
In this chart, (all are based on counting of the natal signs/houses):
April 21-May 21 1951 = 1st house (Capricorn)
May 21-June 21 1951 = 2nd house (Aquarius)
June 21-July 21 1951 = 3rd house (Pisces)
July 21-August 21 1951 = 4th house (Aries)
August 21-September 21 1951 = 5th house (Taurus)
September 21-October 21 1951 = 6th house (Gemini)
October 21-November 21 1951 = 7th house (Cancer)
November 21 -December 21 1951 = 8th house (Leo)
December 21 1951-January 21 1952 = 9th house (Virgo)
EVENT PERIOD January 21-February 21 1952 (includes time of event February 8th, 1952) = 10th house (Libra)

1. The first chart shows the natal chart, Placidus houses, with transits and progressions. Uranus wipes out as hitting any house cusps (and I tried a bunch of house systems) but it is in the 6th house of service, within orb of a conjunction with Pluto, the modern ruler of Elizabeth II's MC in Scorpio. The MC is one's public image and career in the sense of vocation, even destiny.

In mundane (political) astrology, the MC indicates monarchs and other heads of state. I think it is fair to interpret the life of such a public figure using both mundane and natal chart interpretations.

Transiting Pluto makes a close opposition to the natal Mars (traditional ruler of the MC) in the first house. Pluto rules profound change as well as a kind of unstoppable power.

The progressed sun makes a close conjunction to the IC (and opposition to the MC and Saturn.) I take from this configuration that this moment really ended QE2's life as a private person--becoming queen of the British empire wasn't about her personal identity, but about the public role (MC) she was expected to fulfill.

Transiting Saturn and Neptune in the 8th house indicate death on a metaphorical if not literal level. Certainly her father died, and the father is symbolized by Saturn in a night birth. Neptune closely squares the AS. I read this as a kind of "dissolving" or "erasure" of her individual personality as she became a more public figure.

The progressed angular moon hitting the DC simultaneously opposes the AS (again, it's not about her) and squares the MC/Saturn (it is about her public role.)

I would read this as indicating QE2's lifelong commitment to public service (unlike some of her forebears) and a profound change at the time of her father's death/ascension to the throne.

2. The second, progressed chart, is really interesting, in that Elizabeth's sun is now the tip of a kite formation and one of the corners of a grand cross. Although becoming the figurehead of the British empire "isn't about her" but in a way it is. The sun is in the 3rd progressed house, of the media in mundane astrology. Everything about her personally is coming under public scrutiny: what she wears, what she says, and her daily activities by the species known as "royals watchers."

Progressed moon in deeply caring Cancer is in the 5th, but close enough to the 6th house cusp that many astrologers would read its influence as occuring in the 6th house of (public) service.

The ruler of the progressed MC is fortunate Jupiter, but it is locked away in the 12th house and makes no happy aspects. She may have felt imprisioned (12th house) by her new roles.

3. I think I posted the wrong solar return chart above (1952-53) for the year Elizabeth became queen--although there was clearly a lot going on, notably her official coronation. Uranus puts in an appearance conjunct the ascendant. The solar return chart for the year her father died and she became queen would be for 1951-52, posted below.

Sun on the natal 3rd house cusp, with Mercury and Mars already there suggest media attention in mundane astrology. There is a focus in the SR chart on the moon and Neptune on the 8th house cusp. I don't like death prediction in astrology but I think it can indicate when someone is thinking about death--which is expected in the case of a father's death.

In mundane astrology, the 7th house indicates foreign affairs--relations with other nations such as treaties and conflicts. It is interesting to see SR Pluto conjunct the 7th house SR cusp. It would appear that major changes are afoot, and with the SR ascendant in opposition, she's in the hot seat.

I note that in QE2's natal chart, Saturn conjuncts the MC, retrograde in the 9th. She presided over the dismantling of the British empire with the emergence of the Commonwealth of Nations, and Britain's loss of stature as a major economic force. In mundane astrology, the 9th house indicates religion, and as head of the Church of England, Q. Elizabeth also presided over its decline in membership and public influence.

Anyway, there is tons more there, but I would love to see a traditional astrologer explain the impact of February 6, 1952 in Elizabeth II's life, using the whole sign house system and the 7 traditional planets, posted in my previous message.

Dr. Farr-- we've just crossed in the "mail"-- thanks, and see if a modern interpretation fits, as well. I don't claim expertise, just a willingness to put my money where my mouth is.

Waybread-an excellent delineation! My comments were focused on the specific event of February 8th, 1952; also, remember that I am an eclectic, I use Modernist and Greek and Traditionalist (and even some Chinese and Vedic!) methods and share certain points of view/concepts with EACH of these whole system models of astrological analysis and prediction!