Celibacy in traditional astrology

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Also, I would like for you to point me in the direction of the prostitution research that you are familiar with. I'm curious to see what was said myself.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
As to the contention that engaging in prostitution is a moral failing. Interesting. Morality seems to be dependent on the society and the dominant religions that govern them. And there are some that exalt feminine sexuality and sacred prostitution is a thing. Hell, JA's idol comes from a society that has sexual rites encoded in their spiritual practice, but don't tell him that. By some accounts Mary Magdalene was an important figure in early Christianity and she was a prostitute. Was she a moral failure? Jesus didn't seem to think so.

On the other hand, are you saying that someone who wouldn't engage in prostitution under any circumstance won't also be predisposed to murder, lying, cheating, stealing or any other sort of "sin"? I know enough people who wouldn't sell sex but would murder or seriously maim, lie, or other deplorable actions in the name of self-service.
AJ didn't say prostitution is a moral failing. He said:

The issue is Venus/Mars not in sect and conjunct. H9 is part of your moral code. The ancients used it to determine how closely one would adhere to the tenants of the gods and the tenants of the gods were more or less moral codes.

If I'm not mistaken, he's talking about social moral codes. What society as a whole considers moral. That's one of the meanings of ninth house as well. Collective beliefs. Social mores. Legislation. While you can make a case that prostitution isn't actually immoral, society as a whole says it is. Anyone who engages in sex work isn't adhering very closely to this social moral code.

That says nothing about their personal morality. Plenty of people who break the social code in one way or another still have ethics, and aren't even necessarily going to break the social code in other ways.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
And my point is that prostitution in some societies aren't against the social mores. Sacred prostitution has and does exist in certain societies. And one can inject their personal morality into a reading so that it clouds judgement, ultimately this is what I would like to guard against.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
And my point is that prostitution in some societies aren't against the social mores.
Some societies, perhaps, but not the societies you and I and our friend who's been a sex worker live in. We're all in societies where ninth house mores say prostitution = bad.

Doesn't necessarily mean we can't reinterpret the mores on our own terms... but methinks that would be indicated by something like, an out of sect Venus and Mars, one in domicile and the other in fall, conjunct in the ninth house. Something about that person's ninth house is bucking the system of her society.

Sacred prostitution has and does exist in certain societies.
And in those societies, sex work would have a very different meaning. And possibly different astrological indicators, who knows? Or maybe the same ones playing out in a different way.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
You'd be interested to know that in the tradition, Venus rules priesthoods. The religion of Islam is represented by Venus in Scorpio. The symbols might not be so different after all if they are disposed to sacred prostitution.

By whole signs, her conjunction occurs in the 11th, which all the other charts in this thread were read from. If she happened to have a slightly incorrect birth-time, that conjunction would occur in the 10th. Depending on her actual birth data, which I don't have, MC is located in either Libra or Scorpio, meaning either Mars or Venus has a say in the profession alongside the sign on the 10th. Those are stronger indications for the conjunction to show up if the issue is "sex-worker".

She may or may not have gotten into it because she has no other choice. The details about how she got into it would be enlightening but understandable if she doesn't want to put out more than she already has.

Venus conjunct Mars on its own is enough to be classed as "over-sexed" and hence classed against social mores all on its own, no recourse to houses needed.

Her 9th house HS would be Leo where her Mercury resides. 9th house Mercury sounds like astrologer or "divination", since she also does cartomancy. Mercury is a tricky planet so could certainly mean being at variance with the social mores.

It's a decent interpretation, and it certainly can fit, but the reason why I contest it is because it could be a fluke or beside the point. If she literally did it as a profession (11th house is also income from work) that is more pertinent than it being against what decent society thinks is bad, since you could flip it and say that many people are illicitly accepting of it since it doesn't seem to go away.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
And if we weren't in the wonderful trad section, I would mention that the planet known to give convention the finger is square said Mercury. And would be located in whole sign 12th.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Yeah, he's the one who first started middle fingering everyone. He goes anywhere and becomes anything he wants.

To go back to the OP, he initially suggested a strong Mercury as a factor in celibacy. Celibacy can also be a bird flipped at convention, if the conventional expectation is that you don't leave your teens a virgin and you generally don't abstain from sex as an adult.

Obviously, a strong Mercury does not automatically make people celibate (or sex workers). But does Mercury perhaps play a part?
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
To go back to the OP, he initially suggested a strong Mercury as a factor in celibacy. Celibacy can also be a bird flipped at convention, if the conventional expectation is that you don't leave your teens a virgin and you generally don't abstain from sex as an adult.

Obviously, a strong Mercury does not automatically make people celibate (or sex workers). But does Mercury perhaps play a part?

It's not impossible, since alongside being the unconventional one he is also the ruler of two out of the three barren signs --- Gemini, Leo and Virgo. Him signifying the cerebral and non-sensual is also pertinent.

In the Thema Mundi, the exaltation of Jupiter and Mars - Cancer and Capricorn - appear in the 1st and 7th house respectively. This is dichotomy between life and death. A similar juxtaposition occurs between the exaltation of Mercury and Venus - Virgo and Pisces - with Virgo appearing in the 3rd and Pisces in the 9th. There's a lot of evocative comparisons that can be made there, but one that I think relevant might be the issue between "locality" (Mercury) and "porous borders" (Venus). In the context of a person, someone who prefers to stay local and within their comfort zone may also be virginal in the sense of not wanting anything foreign to enter into the space that they have demarcated as "familiar territory".

I haven't combed through an entire traditional text in a long while but from what I remember Mercury may be responsible for a lot of sexual perversions or socially unacceptable behaviours. Homosexuality and pederasty being some of the charges it has picked up from the ancients.

Mercury is also "trans" - anything, and with the few charts of transsexuals I've seen I noted the prominence of Mercury. One such example is the chart of Caroline Cossey. The astrologer focused on the Libra planets as adding an extra dosage of femininity, but that quintessential Mercury on the rise is hard to ignore and the transition this man (now woman) did.

Repeating that such and such placement needs to be read in the context of the whole chart is clunky, and a truism that I think by now is tacitly understood by everyone who takes part in these discussions.
 
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Ukpoohbear

Well-known member
Hi,

Which planets and aspects are responsible for making a person celibate for a large part of life or the entire life not for spiritual development but to prevent the native from having a sexual life?

I feel a very strong Mercury as the chart ruler or a very dominant planet, very strong Saturn (need not be the chart ruler) and a badly dignified Venus are responsible for a forced celibate life.

I think Mercury alone can cause the damage without help from any other planet.

What do others think?

Thanks

I am celibate by choice for the last 2/3 years and I have a weak but elevated Venus and Mercury and Mars prominent. Mercury is androgynous, and Venus is not in a good shape so I do not fit easily into relationships because of various reasons, not all necessarily bad reasons like independence and having a deeper mind set. Mercury being androgynous makes sense being that the sexual planet Mars is in Gemini.

When I say I’ve been celibate I’ve managed up until two 6 months periods where I broke my celibacy because I missed the connection but felt unfulfilled afterwards and returned to being celibate again, then an 8 month period and I’m now on the 8 month mark again with no desire to break it except for with the right spiritual connection. Its about taking my power back. It’s done wonders for my self-esteem and energy levels but I’ve experienced heat in my root chakra area, like a lot of it so much a neighbour who I’m friendly with even commented on it lol. I liken it to feeling testosterone and I have found it’s given me confidence.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Hi conspiracy theorist,

Honestly, I'm not seeing anything.
First, the sample isn't statistically valid.
In college our statistics class was required to work with the university policy center
who conducted phone and written polls on a wide variety of topics.
A representative statistical sample for the US is roughly 2,386 people.
166 charts is hardly enough.
when one takes into account a world population of seven billion
that's an excellent point
Second, by his own admission,
"...it is difficult to get accurate birth times for this group of people."
Since he doesn't have accurate birth times,
you have to wonder
if he didn't cast the charts in a way
that would support his preconceived ideas.
There's no point in even casting a chart
if you don't have an accurate birth-time.
for those beginners reading this thread who do not know
horoscopic astrology is entirely dependent on a reliable time of birth
and so it's clear
this intereting area of research
in this caae IS based on a shaky foundation
Third, he looks only at prostitutes.
In a true representative statistical sample he would need to look at non-prostitutes.
How many people have the same chart conditions he lists but were never prostitutes?
That would be damning evidence against his claim.
Certainly if he had added details of non-prostitues with the same chart conditions
that would have been a far more representative statistical sample
- he may have skewed his findings in favor of his thesis :smile:
Finally, that is not the research I saw.
The data I saw had more than 1,000 charts with verified birth-times, but it didn't really prove anything.
That's why I say you have to look at the chart as a whole.
I agree - one must consider the chart as a whole - this cannot be too frequently emphasised
particularly within the context of our amateur learning forum
because
albeit members who post may be knowledeable and learned themselves
some being seasoned professionals
it is important to keep in mind that
many readers of these threads on our forum are beginners
who appreciate that these important factors are being highlighted
I have a most devious mind and would make an excellent criminal,
except my chart won't allow it due to the placement of Sun, Moon and Mercury.
I'm sure there are many women whose charts have the "signature" for prostitution,
but if you look at the Ascendant, its ruler, and the placement of Moon and Mercury
you'll find their morals are not corrupt
and maybe even their morals could not be corrupted
so they'd never engage in prostitution regardless of the circumstances.
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
@AJ

No need to attribute malice or cynicism on the part of the researcher.

Hi conspiracy theorist,

I did not attribute malice or cynicism. I simply implied his "study" isn't of any value to anyone.

A larger sample might ideal, but it is also a costly and resource intensive, and you can count your lucky stars if you find a sponsor with the sufficient money who would invest in a serious astrological study.


So he lives in Antarctica?

Because I can walk, bike, ride a bus, take a taxi or drive to any part of town where prostitute are. They're chatty, you know? I doubt every one of them would know their birth-time, but that's what consent forms are for.

So what if only 25 of them know their birth-times?

Then you find 25 non-prostitutes who know their birth-times.

You know, a control group. Sociological, psychological and scientific studies all use control groups.

It's shocking he doesn't know that, but then he really doesn't know what he's doing.

As to the contention that engaging in prostitution is a moral failing. Interesting.


I said no such thing.

On the other hand, are you saying that someone who wouldn't engage in prostitution under any circumstance won't also be predisposed to murder, lying, cheating, stealing or any other sort of "sin"? I know enough people who wouldn't sell sex but would murder or seriously maim, lie, or other deplorable actions in the name of self-service.

Read the chart. It will tell you what you want to know.

Some people have a signature in their chart indicating they will lie and deceive. That doesn't necessarily make them criminals or prostitutes.

The chart will tell you where/what they will engage in lies and deceptions.

Some people lie about themselves. Like the Indian chief who really wasn't a chief and who never conducted classified missions in Cambodia and Laos during the Vietnam War. He was a refrigeration repair specialist in the Marine reserves after the US withdrew troops.

The chart might indicate they'll lie and be deceptive about money and financial matters, and if they also have a criminal signature they might engage in fraud and embezzlement.

Some lie about relationships.

It's all in the chart. If someone has weak morals, you can see how that might manifest itself.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
I'm sure there are many women whose charts have the "signature" for prostitution, but if you look at the Ascendant, its ruler, and the placement of Moon and Mercury you'll find their morals are not corrupt and maybe even their morals could not be corrupted so they'd never engage in prostitution regardless of the circumstances.

You'd have to clarify what you meant by these two statements, then. By my read you are connecting moral corruption with the practice of prostitution.

The rest of your post is understood.
 

waybread

Well-known member
With the category of men known as "incels" [involuntary celebates] I have sometimes wondered why they didn't consider prostitution. I am not saying any particular celibate male carries all of the negative attributes of this group, because celebates range from Catholic priests to women in cultures where male relatives still practice so-called "honor killing" to happy adults with a low libido and no particular love interest in their lives. Some people are shut-ins or unwilling to take any kind of sexual risk that might lead to emotionally painful rejection.

Some of these would have different horoscope signatures.

I think some prostitution is immoral and some is not. It depends on the circumstances of the individual.

The OPer gives some clues on post #5 as to how he manages, but it is a sensitive subject.
 
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AJ Astrology

Well-known member
The OPer gives some clues on post #5 as to how he manages, but it is a sensitive subject.

Hi waybread,

You might want to read up on eunuchs. The practice was extant at the time some ancient astrologers were writing and that would be a case of voluntary celibacy (taken to the extreme). There are some Persians who write about it. I think Abu Mashar did.

There are chart significators for eunuchs and perhaps we should consider those as well when looking at celibacy.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Hmmmm.... AJ, are you sure they were all voluntary? I am thinking of the castrati singers: boys with beautiful high voices who were castrated before puberty to retain their high vocal range. Today we would consider that to be a horrible form of abuse. Apparently they were not always celibate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato

But of course, some celibate people are unable to have a conventional sexual relationship for physical reasons. I think it's common for elderly men or men with their prostates removed surgically to become impotent. I was once acquainted with a man who never matured sexually and looked like a 12-year old boy for most of his life, until he was able to get modern hormonal treatments. I have no idea if he had any kind of sexual relationship/s.

Then what do we consider to be a sexual relationship?

(Nobody has to answer that question!)

But probably in the medieval Islamic world, where eunuchs were more common, it made sense to look for astrological signatures.
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
Hmmmm.... AJ, are you sure they were all voluntary?

Hi waybread,

No, they weren't all voluntary. I'm aware in some civilizations they were forced, especially on certain types of servants in the household of a king or whatnot.

I was just suggesting that perhaps we might look at the chart signatures for eunuchs to shed some light on celibacy.

I agree that medical conditions, and also mental health conditions, may lead to celibacy, but I don't believe that is something you'd see in a natal chart. To see those, I think it would be best to look at profections and transits to profections.
 

waybread

Well-known member
It's an interesting question.

I'm thinking that the natal chart really only gives the road map, not the travels. Sexuality would typically be one of those things (like athletic ability) that varies over the life course.

Then sometimes a person seems to have a really promising nativity. But it turns out they were seriously injured as a child, so none of those promising attributes developed. I seldom look at how a transit or progression might really alter the course of the life that came after it. But probably should.
 

creativei

Well-known member
Venus in Hasta nakshatra kanya rasi gives no sex life . you can check it on any charts . it will work 100% ( but it too has some exceptions )



buddha is not for celibacy though somewhat its also reason but mercury is for sex power , good mercury gives longer intercourse time without getting tired on nervous breakdown .

saturn mercury conjunction or mutual aspects makes person eunuch . lack of sexual stamina , indeed he has sperm but it comes out soon , essence of sex life is not injecting sperm but actually holding it for longer duration . if mercury gets afflicted , it gives this problem . sun is only exception for this , mercury can join sun it doesnt have any afflictions . but strictly not with other malefics .


venus ketu gives limited sex life with unsatisfaction . partner longs more and more . it also somehow leads to celibate life in later part .
 
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