A Natal chart for fun.

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Hi,

I would like to applaud Wintersprite's insight and her suggestion in message 8 that the chart showed criminal tendancies, which Bob responded to in a positive fashion. As Starnoud said, with a bit of trial and error it was possible to work out the birthdate. This is what I did in order to find the position of Black Moon Lilith. When it turned out to be in Sagittarius (in 8th?) and Jupiter in the 10th was harshly aspected, I followed Wintersprite's idea. I was thinking in terms of Manson or Son of Sam. The major problem was that, using Porphyry, Uranus was the only planet in the 12th house (incarceration) and this didn't seem to fit 'criminal tendancies', although 'hidden perversities' came a close second. My data base has a criminal section. Don't ask me why I looked at Brady; I don't know. But what did clinch the Placidus house system yet again for me was that Saturn, ruler M.C., also went firmly into the 12th house. Imprisonment. This is why I put forward the suggestion that Saturn in Pisces may not necessarily refer to 'spirituality' if Earth is largely present in the natal chart.

Without Wintersprite's observation I, personally, would never have suspected a criminal in the Porphyry chart provided. (S)he also hit the nail on the head with 'the Lord of the 8th (criminality) is in the 10th'. Congrats. Wintersprite (pity there's no applause emoticon).

Frisiangal.
 

Draco

Well-known member
It's as well I missed out on this as I'm particularly interested in the nativities of violent criminals, and I may have known who this was.

I take it that you approach astrology from a traditional perspective Bob? I'm so glad you're here. ;)

I'll attempt to take a look at the next chart using some traditional techniques, but I'm a bit hesistant with natal astrology and require practice, so this is the kind of thing I need. I can't seem to get myself off the ground with natal analysis, I identify the ingredients, and can mix them together to a certain extent, but have trouble actually baking the cake, which might come down to lack of confidence, and knowledge, thus far.

I'm can understand why you hesitate to provide the chart data. It won't be long before someone drops a bomb of a hint and gives it away, this has always happened when I've tried something similar, and then there are always those who will Google the data and then find out all about them and base their interpretation on this. I suppose this is lack of faith in others, but there you go.

I think all the information that would be necessary for the next chart is the person's sex, their year of birth and their nationality.

Before you post the next chart, might you offer us your own analysis of this one? I would be interested to see how you go about delineating a nativity.
 
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Lissa

Well-known member
It's so true-when I looked at the chart,I simply assumed I was looking at the chart of a "good" person.I didn't even think the chart could belong to a criminal.When looking at someone's chart,we usually assume the person is using the chart in the most positive way,without letting the darker side of it take control...well at least I do.Although I really agree that people don't simply into turn into murderers just like that;the birth chart would show the person's inclinations and then transits would do the rest.

Honestly,I think this was a very clever choice for a first mistery chat.I think no one was expecting something like this(I know I wasn't:p).I have some interest in criminology and I'm considering becoming a Psychologhist specialized in criminology,so I obviously think this is a very interesting thread.Reading the descriptions of some of the things he did to those children were the only thing that creeped me out.I think it would be very interesting to know your own considerations about Brady's chart.
 

Draco

Well-known member
It can be an interesting exercise to explore a chart, especially one's own, and to consider what the most evil possible manifestation of that chart could be, and then, to consider what the most saintly expression of that chart could be. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, while clarifying what our highest possible and lowest possible manifestations of our destiny could be, our most demonic and angelic expression.
 

wintersprite1

Premium Member
Frisiangal said:
Without Wintersprite's observation I, personally, would never have suspected a criminal in the Porphyry chart provided. (S)he also hit the nail on the head with 'the Lord of the 8th (criminality) is in the 10th'. Congrats. Wintersprite (pity there's no applause emoticon).

Frisiangal.

Draco said it best in the post above....

"The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, while clarifying what our highest possible and lowest possible manifestations of our destiny could be, our most demonic and angelic expression." Draco


I started studying Astrology as a teenager, when all that was available was whatever the public library stocked in reading material. I learned Astrology thru the entire series of Alan Leo. His work is fatalistic and very extreme. So having that knowledge as my base, I always look for extreme possibilities first.
 

flea

Well-known member
Wintersprite,

I am glad you said you look for extremes first. I have the lord of the eighth in the 10th, and have pluto/uranus in 4th on the 5th cusp. So I have some of the not so good stuff in my chart. All this manifests in different ways, one of which is a true extreme on the edges of humanity.

I must admit that it has given me cause for thought, and a little uneasiness has crept in. What am I capable of?? How much is my awareness of my life and the implications of my choices. How far do unconcious drives take me??

Still pondering that one.

Love & Light Flea
 
B

Bob

Hi everyone,


Quote: Frisiangal
I would like to applaud Wintersprite's insight and her suggestion in message 8 that the chart showed criminal tendancies, which Bob responded to in a positive fashion.

Lol, Frisiangal. I thought the hint I gave may have been a little obvious. I did not want to mislead anyone, and when the opportunity came (I nearly done it on your post) to open the door I took it. I think you and wintersprite1 were both first at suggesting criminal tendencies, though there was one or two close references by some of the others.

Quote:
As Starnoud said, with a bit of trial and error it was possible to work out the birthdate.

I would have done this myself because all (probably like many of you here) I like to check the chart is calculated correctly and to include many of the parts I personally work with. Astrology does have a habit of attracting some quite adept and persistent investigators so I sort of guessed some folks would google and goggle until they got it, lol. However, it seemed everybody gave their honest appraisal based upon the facts as observed by each of you/us which made for a very interesting thread. It was great to see everyone using their own techniques, and even our young astrologers were adding to and joining in without fear of reprisal.

Quote:
When it turned out to be in Sagittarius (in 8th?) and Jupiter in the 10th was harshly aspected, I followed Wintersprite's idea. I was thinking in terms of Manson or Son of Sam.

Well spotted by the pair of you, it took a certain bravery to be the first to deviate from the everything is good predictions which we are all used to by trying to help others see the light through the darkness.

Quote:
The major problem was that, using Porphyry, Uranus was the only planet in the 12th house (incarceration) and this didn't seem to fit 'criminal tendancies', although 'hidden perversities' came a close second. My data base has a criminal section. Don't ask me why I looked at Brady; I don't know. But what did clinch the Placidus house system yet again for me was that Saturn, ruler M.C., also went firmly into the 12th house. Imprisonment. This is why I put forward the suggestion that Saturn in Pisces may not necessarily refer to 'spirituality' if Earth is largely present in the natal chart.

Criminals charts make great study because they usually have a lot going on in their charts, they also often have a planet totally unaspected quite often; I have thousands of them in several databases. One of the things I was hoping to see was some folks noticing that while a planet has a good or bad attributes, they are predisposed to have a certain ‘natural’ form of expression according to how well the planets qualities blend with the sign it is in. Saturn in Pisces (especially this degree) is a poor place for him, unless he is assisted in some fashion his expression would most naturally be negative, a fact some people find hard to understand. A car with a problem starter-motor will always give trouble starting until it is repaired or replaced; it does not matter that the starter-motor has free will to act as it would like, if it is broke it can only act in that way. Well spotted!

Before any of you who are still learning about planets in signs etc rush through your charts thinking ‘ oh gawd, I have a Pisces Saturn’, Saturn only has the tools to be bad in that sign. If he does not disposit important planets who rule houses that could be problematic, and has no good connection to any other planet, and a sufficient enough placement as to suggest his malefic qualities are dominant then your Pisces Saturn could be and probably is fine.

Quote: Draco
I take it that you approach astrology from a traditional perspective Bob? I'm so glad you're here.

Hi Draco, thankyou for the welcome. I did originally start out learning modern psychological astrology w…ay back in 81 but towards the end of the nineties I started to investigate where all my modern astrology idols learned from. That put me on a path that showed just how brilliant, complex yet simple and revealing astrology once was, I wanted in so I set about devouring any traditional, classic and Hellenistic astrology books, papers or general info I could get my hands on. I have never looked back, it gets more interesting each day, even after nearly thirty years.

Quote:
I'll attempt to take a look at the next chart using some traditional techniques, but I'm a bit hesistant with natal astrology and require practice, so this is the kind of thing I need. I can't seem to get myself off the ground with natal analysis, I identify the ingredients, and can mix them together to a certain extent, but have trouble actually baking the cake, which might come down to lack of confidence, and knowledge, thus far.

Thanks Draco, it will be good to have you involved. Personally I have only ever been interested in natal astrology, and there has been several occasions where I thought I had it all together, boy was I wrong. I look back now and wonder how I the heck made it work without the knowledge I have today, but that’s astrology for you I suppose. knowing you have a good interest and knowledge of horary astrology yourself, this will advance your natal skills no end if you can learn to know which of those techniques you can apply to natal work, and which are strictly for horary. That may be where you get your uncertainty from (a quick check just told me you will be 25 this year). From what I have enjoyed reading in your posts you have a pretty darn good knowledge and it will be my pleasure if I can help you fine tune your understanding of natal work. If I had any advice for you, it would be to familiarize yourself with all the major classic (not classical) astrology texts, reading and re-reading them until you could practically recite them. Time and practice will do the rest. Hopefully, the mystery charts should help because they are not about being right or wrong, just the sharing of styles and ideas.

Quote:
Before you post the next chart, might you offer us your own analysis of this one? I would be interested to see how you go about delineating a nativity.

I certainly will my friend because that was one of the points of my exercise, everyone can throw all their styles into the foray and I will summarise at the end. Time permitting, I was hoping to be able to have a discussion about each chart where we can ask each other questions on delineations and techniques. Until the age of around fifteen I was considered to be dyslexic and/or illiterate, astrology allowed me to rebuild myself and unlock doorways within my psyche that allowed me to learn and retain information voraciously. I suppose I am living proof of the capability of astrology to enhance or unlock our abilities in what many people thought was a hopeless case. Upon learning these things I wanted to give them to everybody so they too could rise from the ashes and turn a certain

Quote: Lissa
Honestly,I think this was a very clever choice for a first mistery chat.I think no one was expecting something like this(I know I wasn't ).I have some interest in criminology and I'm considering becoming a Psychologhist specialized in criminology,so I obviously think this is a very interesting thread.

Thankyou for you kind words Lissa, you have given a very good account of what I was hoping a thread like this would do.

Quote: Draco
It can be an interesting exercise to explore a chart, especially one's own, and to consider what the most evil possible manifestation of that chart could be, and then, to consider what the most saintly expression of that chart could be. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, while clarifying what our highest possible and lowest possible manifestations of our destiny could be, our most demonic and angelic expression.

Very nicely put Draco, that is exactly how I look at it. In my opinion people should not worry about silly indiscretions or some of the things that may have had to do in order to survive in a tough world. People like Brady are in a class of their own.

Quote: wintersprite1
I started studying Astrology as a teenager, when all that was available was whatever the public library stocked in reading material. I learned Astrology thru the entire series of Alan Leo. His work is fatalistic and very extreme. So having that knowledge as my base, I always look for extreme possibilities first.

Though I have gone off Leo a little since I looked into his peers, he did have an unmistakable impact on modern astrology, and quite a good repertoire which I’m sure kick-started many of today’s best astrologers. It was clear you had a good knowledge of astrology and I have since gone and read all your back posts. Thankyou for joining in with this thread wintersprite1 and I hope you will continue to benefit us all with your interesting insights.



Quote: Flea
I am glad you said you look for extremes first. I have the lord of the eighth in the 10th, and have pluto/uranus in 4th on the 5th cusp. So I have some of the not so good stuff in my chart. All this manifests in different ways, one of which is a true extreme on the edges of humanity.


I must admit that it has given me cause for thought, and a little uneasiness has crept in. What am I capable of?? How much is my awareness of my life and the implications of my choices. How far do unconcious drives take me??

Still pondering that one.

Love & Light Flea

Flea, forgive me for what you might think is patronising you here but because I do not know your depth of knowledge just yet, it is most definitely not my intention to patronize you or anyone else. However, I would like to ease your mind on one or two of your statements. First I would like to congratulate you on getting some personal benefit from the thread; that is/was its whole purpose. Second, your “not so good stuff” may only appear like that on the surface, below the surface there is a real probability that those not so good things are working very well for you. What are you capable of – By simply asking yourself this question you are seeking to understand and implement more quality in your life; hence what you are capable of must ultimately be beneficial not just for yourself, but others too. How far do your unconscious drives take you – As far as you want them to, to paraphrase Tim, the limits are endless; within the confines of your build you will be able to make life very much more pleasant for you, no matter how well off you already are physically, financially, emotionally or spiritually. Perhaps someone could source me the biblical phrase “ask and it shall be given” This is how I see the unconscious.


Thanks again to everybody


Good wishes


Bob

P.S. following this post is a small look at the obvious traits in Brady’s chart. During the week I will publish a thorough investigation into the intricacies and workings of his mind. Any questions I will answer as soon as I can but please be patient, I am burning the candle at both ends at the moment.
 
B

Bob

Here is a short delineation of the obvious traits that stand out in Brady’s natal chart.

What we have are four planets (including the two lights) in Capricorn, Jupiter in Aquarius and Mars/Saturn in Pisces. The ascendant is Taurus and the Mc accompanying the four planets in Capricorn. There is a lack of planets in fire signs suggesting a kind of unconscious compulsion, only one planet in air with absolutely no direct contact with any other planets in the chart (totally unconnected). This means Jupiter has no rules or boundaries imposed by a connection with any other planets, this shows that the principle of God (whatever that meant to him) had no place in his life leading to possible sociopathic and or narcissistic tendencies. In short he does not know when to quit, has no God fearing qualities and cared very little about the law. A strong Saturn could have done much to offset this but he is peregrine himself, and in a water sign. A quick word about the dragons head (north node) in Sagittarius in the 8th house; this shows that one of his missions in this lifetime is to explore life through the 8th house and all its significations of war, violence, nazi’ism and other people goods/money. The north nodes dispositor Jupiter is unconnected to any planets and this shows ‘the’ primary area where he had no boundaries. No wonder he was fascinated with the Nazi regime, war, crime, violence, mental control and manipulation, it practically jumps out from the page.

Stellium’s are often confusing for people to understand but I will show one method of how a stellium can be delineated.

Starting with the Sun in Capricorn, we need to look first to see whether the Sun’s qualities of hot & dry fit in harmony with Capricorns cold and dry nature. With a Sun in Capricorn we get swings between hot & cold mixed with some excessive dryness, far be it from me to highlight how many Capricorns have a ‘dry’ sense of humour, a ‘dry’ personality, or (for that matter) ‘dry’ skin etc. Straight away we see that there is some conflict with the Sun’s need or desire to be free to act and Saturn’s self-limiting or self-restraining qualities. Something some of you will probably not have heard of is that a planet needs to be able to see his home to be able to function properly, in the Sun’s case he needs to be able to see the sign of Leo by Ptolemaic aspect, if he cannot see his home he seems to go out and start things that he cannot complete or bring home. If he has no direct contact with his home, it is important that he can see or contact his ‘sect’ partners which are Jupiter and Saturn. The signs of Leo and Capricorn have absolutely ‘nothing’ at all in common, in fact you could say they are enemies of one another, this is probably one of the reasons a lot of Capricorns have such a hard time. The internal battle of ‘push forward’ verses ‘hold back’ is probably one of the reasons for their stress related skin complaints. I would just like to make it known that just because the Sun is peregrine in Capricorn it does not make a bad or negative person, but it does make it possible by position.

Now, over to the Moon, (also in Capricorn). The Moon is cool and moist while Saturn is cold and dry. Here we have excessive coldness with alternating moist and dryness showing that the emotions are frozen or rigid and not really compatible with this sign Capricorn. Everything the Moon stands for Saturn hates, or at least sees as a weakness. Nothing turns Saturn off more than gushy emotions, instability, lack of ambition or not being capable of providing for ones self or standing on ones own two feet. Every time the Moon wants to show her love or emotions Saturn will find some way of psychologically blocking it, usually through fear or making them feel stupid. Unlike the Capricorn/Leo incompatibility the Moon can see her home from Capricorn, though it is only through an opposition with others. The Moon in Capricorn person usually feels like a fish out of water because they have to hold on tight to those emotive needs of the Moon for fear of looking or feeling stupid. This gives those Capricorn Moon people a hard time personally because holding back emotions takes an acute self awareness and a great deal of psychic energy which leaves them feeling heavy or physically drained. Again I would like to make clear that the Moon in Capricorn by itself is not really a major problem, but it does have the tools to be.

Mercury I will skip for now because I want to do a more thorough investigation of this elusive character after we look at Venus.

Venus is warm and moist and Saturn is cold and dry so we have a complete contrast in their basic temperaments in a similar manner to the Moon. She (venus) is sociable, Saturn is antisocial; Venus seeks pleasure and happiness whereas Saturn is only concerned with duty and ambition, to him, happiness can be bought. Venus in Capricorn has to act according to Saturn’s rules and regulations which can make her a little stiff, stand-offish, socially shy and more concerned about what the relationship can do for her, sacrificing love for position. Cool, calculating and reserved can be very appealing to some but it is an uncomfortable position for Venus to be in because she is having to sacrifice love for duty and sociability for social standards and so on. Usually this Venus would be reluctant to jump into a relationship for fear of getting it wrong, but once one has started she will expect total loyalty, and commitment must be a possibility or Venus will look for it elsewhere. Venus is the significator for money, wealth and possessions and operating through Saturn she would show a certain frugality not easily parting with her possessions. She will also care about her appearance a great deal, her clothes must be of the highest quality affordable, socially acceptable, respectable looking and conservative, and this is because she herself is impressed by these things when she operates through Saturn.

The next step is to assess the planets of the stellium with each other in the same manner as above.

First we have the hot and dry Sun, with a cool and moist Moon, in a sign that has a cold and dry ruler (Saturn), and as you might suspect these temperaments also do not fit happily together. From a basic temperamental perspective both the lights (sun & moon) have equal power generally speaking, but if the chart is diurnal (as this one is) the Sun has more strength, except in some very rare configurations. In modern astrology it is said that conjunct planets combine their energies, but in ancient times planets could only conjoin their energies if they had something in common; like a kind of middle ground where they could both share the same qualities through the dispositing planet or through dual rulership such as Aries/Scorpio (mars) or Taurus/Libra (venus). According to Jean Baptiste Morin, Ptolemy stated in book 3 of the Tetrabiblos ‘disorders of the soul’ that Venus in a feminine sign in a male horoscope or Mars in a masculine sign in a female horoscope produce inclinations and desires that run contrary to nature, if other conditions support this it indicates severely corrupt and deviant carnal desires. I have not mentioned combustion until now, and this is because I was addressing the planets in the sign (Capricorn), but now we are looking at the planets relative to each other. When the Moon is combust one of the things weakened by the condition is the mind, this is because the Moon has not had time to take the light of the Sun, process the information and then bring it back for assimilation in preparation for the next cycle. The qualities the Moon represents are somewhat annihilated, care, compassion and nurture are all absent, little care and attention was received as a child, and therefore the attitude is adopted that children do not deserve care and attention except for narcissistic ego stroking gratification. The combustion of the Moon shows the Moon to be conditioned by the Sun; the Moon rules the 3rd house and so the thinking process is totally conditioned by the Sun’s desires; as the Sun rules the 4th house this conditioning took place at home. Talk about repeating cycles, this is exactly where he tortured and killed most of his victims. This position also shows a dominant father overpowering the mother which was observed by Brady as a very young child (this may not have been the actual father present during Brady’s early months), this witnessing started a negative mentally deviant pre-programming to Brady very early in life which was to act as a catalyst in his later years. It also shows his well deserved condition at the end of his life…

Now we get to the hot and dry Sun with a warm and moist Venus in a sign ruled by the cold and dry Saturn; now we have an excess of dryness and an excess of heat. Venus has dignity in Capricorn by triplicity, and ordinarily Venus in Capricorn is not an especially bad place for her to be in, if the chart is diurnal (as this one is) but unfortunately, she is also combust. This negative conditioning of Venus means that her pleasant, social, friendly and fun loving side of her nature was overpowered by the will of the Sun. This had the effect of adding the icy cold temperament of both the lights being in Capricorn to her otherwise soft and gentle nature. In short she had to ask Saturn’s permission before she could act, and this is extremely important because Venus is the ruler of Brady’s ascendant. Here the soft nature of Venus is totally replaced by the overbearing nature of the extremely controlling, domineering Sun in Capricorn. I have been trying to stay away from Mercury for the reasons above, but now it becomes unavoidable because Venus is in Partile conjunction to a very poorly placed, negative and retrograde Mercury. Venus (the ascendant ruler) also rules the 6th house in Brady’s chart which shows what kind of afflictions we may be subject to in our lives. Her partile conjunction to Mercury is highlighting mental health problems is strongly related to sex and partnerships including friends, that will bring him into conflict with the law (9th house) and/or the authorities (Mc). Saturn rules both the 9th and 10th houses using whole sign houses so all of these things are still applicable without using the Mc. Because the Sun is overpowering Venus he has the effect of turning the significations of Venus and the houses ruled by Venus into areas of vice and corruption which is shown through the ascendant and his means of making a living. I believe there is enough information here to show a family of criminals (if one reads between the lines) and I add the suggestion that Brady was conceived through the raping of his mother. Actually I will rephrase that to; I am 99.9% certain that Brady was conceived by being raped by a lone male while under the influence of drink or drugs but, it is not ‘just’ through the little snippets of information given here, it is supported in many ways through the entire chart.

Before my next post (in a couple of days probably) giving a thorough investigation of Mercury in Brady’s chart, I just want to touch on the effects of Brady’s combust Mercury. With the Sun overpowering Mercury, he is taking control of the significations of Mercury itself and turning the areas Mercury rules into vice and corruption. Mercury rules the 2nd house indicating that he made a living (or attempted to) through crime involving the theft of goods or money, again with the emphasized 9th house it was certain to bring him into conflict with the law. The other house Mercury rules in Brady’s chart is the 5th house of children, sex and pleasure which also brings him into conflict with the law. The overpowering of children by a dominant Sun/male should also be noted. What Brady inherited was rotten to the core, generations of abuse led him to partake in the repeating cycles of his forefathers.

I am sure you will all be aware that I have barely scratched the surface of Brady’s chart and yet we are able to get the picture of a highly corrupt, torturous soul. Because this behaviour was so obvious in his life, it would be just as obvious in his natal chart, which it is. The stars did not impel Brady into such atrocities, neither did they compel him to do the things he done; it was his own choice to act in this manner; the stars merely reflected his actions in his nativity which is what astrology does.

Because I am pressed for time I may not be able to go through all the posts everybody made as I would like to do. Off the top of my head, wintersprite1, frisiangal and Tim came very close to recognising this soul as a negative one. I was hard pressed not to give too much away. Libra20 sadly deleted their post which was a shame because you got philosophy spot on, it was just a warped philosophy coupled with Brady seeing himself as a God that made it hard for you to spot. I am fairly certain most, if not all of you did recognise some areas or traits that were spot on and I will do my best to go through them with you all. It may take a while though. All posters deserve a pat on the back for their bravery in posting and for their own insights into a very difficult chart. I will make additions to the post as and when I get time.

Thankyou to all contributors for making this a good exercise for people to be able to look back on and maybe learn from. I will make a second post this evening, and this time I will add some info into the chart owner. What I will say for now is the next chart will be of what I would call a good person who either directly helped people and/or benefited humanity in a positive way.

One final note:
It is quite possible to have all the placements mentioned here and still be a good person; for example, these placements in different houses might have shown a warder in a children’s prison. Another major factor would be the dispositor of all those Capricorn planets; if Saturn had been well dignified most of the negative traits would probably have remained as passing negative thoughts under the fine control of a positive Saturn. Unfortunately, in this nativity, Saturn is very poorly placed and offers no help in controlling the negative effects of the Capricorn placements.


Good wishes


Bob


Note for; Libra20, Yoi, I have not forgotten you and will answer your PM’s very soon.
 

wilsontc

Staff member
Posted composite chart

To all,

I have posted the composite chart for Ian and his wife in my original posting about the composite chart.

Updating,

Tim
 
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