Sidereal vs tropical

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
What exactly is the difference between a degree for a year, and a day for a year, and how can they yield different results?

No, the Sun is still at 24 degrees Libra, but only according to the tropical zodiac. That's wrong according to another system, but only because you're comparing to another system that does things differently. You won't find the Sun at 24 degrees Libra if you're using sidereal, because that's not where it is in sidereal.
This is on topic. The tropical zodiac is based on an idea that the sun orbits the earth, and although that is what most people thought two thousand plus years ago - it is not actually true - therefore the tropical zodiac is a mathematical abstraction. Here's a more detailed visual explanation from youtube entitled "Earth's motion around the sun is not as simple as I thought" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related :smile:
 

tsmall

Premium Member
My only advice to any aspiring or practicing astrologer...go outside. Look up. Step away from the computer or the ephemeris. What do you see? Then decide.
 

kennedyrosewhith

Well-known member
I understand how the tropical zodiac works and how it originated. If I told you the Sun was at 24 degrees Libra in the tropical zodiac, and you went and looked, would you not find it there? Obviously you wouldn't find it at 24 degrees Libra in the sidereal zodiac, but that's a different system and that's not where I said it was.

Unless what you're saying is that even in the tropical zodiac, the Sun is somewhere else altogether.
 

MSO

Well-known member
The Images or 'constellations' may well be regarded by some as simply 'imaginary constructs' - nevertheless the stars themselves on which those 'Images' are based are as real as our sun and therefore clearly do have effect to astrology :smile:

Furthermore, a Tropical zodiac natal chart is composed of only 360[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] degrees but there are 365.25363 days in the solar year.

Therefore Tropical astrology cannot accurately state the position of the sun on any given day
.

Obviously, since a Sidereal zodiac natal chart is also composed of only 360[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] degrees but there are 365.25363 days in the solar year - then Sidereal astrological natal charts cannot accurately state the position of the sun on any given day either:smile:

Your argument of the year being longer than 360 days is pointless. The Sun doesn't move 1 degree a day. It varies between 56' and 61' (that actually may be a bit inaccurate... but meh, the point stands).
 
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MSO

Well-known member
My only advice to any aspiring or practicing astrologer...go outside. Look up. Step away from the computer or the ephemeris. What do you see? Then decide.

So if the Sun is at 27 degrees Aries, and I went outside and looked up, what would I see? Certainly not the Sun at 27 degrees Aries. Since Aries isn't 27 degrees long :smile:
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Remember that the tropical "zodiac" actually refers to divisions of longitude along the path of the Sun we call the ecliptic; this is a 360 circle; Aries covers 0 to 29degrees59minutes59seconds portion of that (invisible) circle; then the portion from 30 degrees to 59/59/59, the second portion of that circle, we call Taurus, and so on; once upon a time, portions of the starry constellations called Aries, Taurus, etc, filled each of those portions of the ecliptic path; many believe these portions of that path (the signs) were given the name of the constellations which partially filled them, at the period when Western astrology as we have come to know it, was first systematized. Before that time, however, those same portions of the ecliptic path were partially filled by different starry zodiacal constellations, and over the centuries since that time, the starry zodiacal constellations have moved out of the sections of the ecliptic path (the signs) which they were in when Hellenist astrology gave the signs their starry zodiacal constellation-derived names.
But the portions of the ecliptic path have always remained the same: the first 30 degree portion is still the first 30 degree portion of the path, the second 30 degree section is still the second 30 degree portion of the path, and so on, right around the circle; basically tropical astrology calls these portions of the ecliptic path (which is the Sun's path around the earth, from a geocentric viewpoint) "signs", and they always remain as representing the same area-the same portion or section of the ecliptic path-as they always did. We call the first 30 degree section "Aries"; Chinese call it "Rabbit", and we could simply call it, "Portion (or Section) #1", and so on, around the 360 ecliptic circle.
The issue between signs (tropical outlook) and starry zodiacal constellations (siderealist outlook), comes down to the question: do these areas of space (portions/sections of the ecliptic path) themselves have properties/qualities, OR are these protions/sections of the ecliptic just "empty space", devoid of any qualities, and it is the starry zodiacal constellations IN these sections which in fact gives qualities and properties of influence, to these areas of space along the ecliptic?
This is, really, the foundational question regarding the tropical sign vs sidereal rashi/starry constellation, issue.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Your argument of the year being longer than 360 days is pointless. The Sun doesn't move 1 degree a day. It varies between 56' and 61' (that actually may be a bit inaccurate... but meh, the point stands).


Average daily motion is about 59 minutes; simple symbolic progression uses 1 degree per year of life; however, among earlier Modernist practitioners who used simple progression, 59 minutes per year of life was advocated as a more precise estimate (I must say, though, that when using simple symbolic progression, 1 degree per year has worked quite well for me)
 

tsmall

Premium Member
So if the Sun is at 27 degrees Aries, and I went outside and looked up, what would I see? Certainly not the Sun at 27 degrees Aries. Since Aries isn't 27 degrees long :smile:

Let's see, lol. Sun at 27* Aries is still above the horizon? I'd say you'd see retina burns, or at least sun spots for a few minutes. "Mama always told me not to look into the eyes of the Sun..."

As far as Aries not being 27* long, that was my point on an earlier thread (jeez, I thought we were subscribed to the same ones, and it was me following you, lol...I'm having deja vu right now. :love:) In that when looking up, early astrologers were more concerned than we are today with the ascensional times (thanks, JUPITERASC) as well as signs of equal light and all that, and then imposed the whole 30* houses on top. I'm not saying one or the other is right or wrong, only that we all need to keep an open mind, and like every dang thing else about astrology, decide for ourselves.
 

MSO

Well-known member
Average daily motion is about 59 minutes; simple symbolic progression uses 1 degree per year of life; however, among earlier Modernist practitioners who used simple progression, 59 minutes per year of life was advocated as a more precise estimate (I must say, though, that when using simple symbolic progression, 1 degree per year has worked quite well for me)

There's not much of a difference there :lol:

I can't even use progressions without thinking "my god this is stupid.." But that's another thread...
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Right-many don't care for progressions, or profections, and prefer Solar Returns and transits. Different approaches attract different practitioners, and one will only really get exceptional results when practicing what "tastes good" to them!!
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
There's not much of a difference there :lol:
I can't even use progressions without thinking "my god this is stupid.." But that's another thread...
Nevertheless it is indubitable that a year has 365.25363 days, BUT the circle of the degrees of the Zodiac (whether Tropical or Sidereal) has only 360[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º [/FONT] - there are only 360[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] in any circle.

It is also a fact that the Tropical Zodiac is a relic from almost two thousand years ago when everyone thought that the Sun orbits the earth, so the Tropical Zodiac reflects that old fashioned and inaccurate idea by fixing the Vernal Equinox at 0[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Aries

However, in contrast, the Sidereal Zodiac takes account of the reality that the Earth orbits the Sun so the vernal point is not fixed but precessed and therefore the vernal point is currently at approximately
6[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Pisces and gradually drifting towards Aquarius (hence the dawning of the Age of Aquarius)

For visual and verbal illustration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related :smile:

Right-many don't care for progressions, or profections, and prefer Solar Returns and transits. Different approaches attract different practitioners, and one will only really get exceptional results when practicing what "tastes good" to them!!
Nevertheless, even when using Solar Returns and transits many use precessed Solar Returns which take account of precession (i.e. basically Sidereal) - as for transits, the position of transiting planets in the sky when viewed against a background of 'Images' or constellations are approximately 24 degrees earlier than as stated by computer programs illustrating the Tropical Zodiac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related :smile:
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re transits: ...around 30 degrees (averaged) if using the Hipparchus or the Alcyone/Krittika ayanamsa:biggrin:!
Interesting that it was Hipparchus who prepared a calendrical device commencing at 0 degrees Aries simply for use as a seasonal calendar to track the movements of the Sun. Hipparchus himself was apparently aware of precession as were other astronomers of that time who had observed the gradual westward drifting of the Vernal Point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related :smile:
 
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kennedyrosewhith

Well-known member
JUPITERASC - I understand what you're saying now. But the fault is not the zodiac, the fault is insisting that the Sun be progressed exactly one degree per day. This does not reflect reality.

When you switch from tropical to sidereal, the positions of the planets have not changed, but rather the backdrop they're set against. At one point in time, the Sun can only be in one spot. But you'll get two different locations in tropical and sidereal, because they're two different systems/backdrops.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
JUPITERASC - I understand what you're saying now. But the fault is not the zodiac, the fault is insisting that the Sun be progressed exactly one degree per day. This does not reflect reality.

When you switch from tropical to sidereal, the positions of the planets have not changed, but rather the backdrop they're set against. At one point in time, the Sun can only be in one spot. But you'll get two different locations in tropical and sidereal, because they're two different systems/backdrops.
Exactly, the Sidereal Zodiac natal chart reflects the reality that the Earth orbits the Sun and the Vernal Point precesses

In contrast the Tropical Zodiac is an almost two thousand year old mechanism now outdated

It is possible to use the Tropical Zodiac for a form of divination

However, most people are unaware that their Tropical 'star' sign is totally disconnected from the stars (i.e. constellations) :smile:
 

MSO

Well-known member
Nevertheless it is indubitable that a year has 365.25363 days, BUT the circle of the degrees of the Zodiac (whether Tropical or Sidereal) has only 360[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º [/FONT] - there are only 360[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] in any circle.

It is also a fact that the Tropical Zodiac is a relic from almost two thousand years ago when everyone thought that the Sun orbits the earth, so the Tropical Zodiac reflects that old fashioned and inaccurate idea by fixing the Vernal Equinox at 0[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Aries

However, in contrast, the Sidereal Zodiac takes account of the reality that the Earth orbits the Sun so the vernal point is not fixed but precessed and therefore the vernal point is currently at approximately
6[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Pisces and gradually drifting towards Aquarius (hence the dawning of the Age of Aquarius)

For visual and verbal illustration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related :smile:


Nevertheless, even when using Solar Returns and transits many use precessed Solar Returns which take account of precession (i.e. basically Sidereal) - as for transits, the position of transiting planets in the sky when viewed against a background of 'Images' or constellations are approximately 24 degrees earlier than as stated by computer programs illustrating the Tropical Zodiac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related :smile:

I find it very hard to take you serious when you accuse tropical astrology of being a relic of the past, then turn around and promote sidereal as a thing of the future. You trollin' bro.
 

sandstone

Banned
critical thinking is a good thing..

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

The tropical zodiac is based on an idea that the sun orbits the earth, and although that is what most people thought two thousand plus years ago - it is not actually true - therefore the tropical zodiac is a mathematical abstraction. HUH?


It is also a fact that the Tropical Zodiac
is a relic from almost two thousand years ago
when everyone thought that the Sun orbits the earth, so the Tropical Zodiac reflects that old fashioned and inaccurate idea by fixing the Vernal Equinox at 0[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Aries bizarre...

In contrast the Tropical Zodiac is an almost two thousand year old mechanism now outdated really?

maybe i missed the imaginary punch line : the sidereal zodiac on the other hand is older, but the folks who used it knew the earth revolved around the sun, unlike those pesky fools who followed the tropical zodiac...and it isn't an abstraction, it is just like the cola cola commercial you heard about right after archie bunker took a little break - it's the real thing!
 
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Shanti

Well-known member
After having some 30 years in the sack of astrology using western methods first half and sidereal second half I am not doubting the sidereal zodiac. I think it works well.

I use the vedic system whith special rules and techniques. The weighting of planetary strength by looking at dignities and debilitation is important.

I also use the lunar mansions extensively which gives almost "another zodiac" to use as well with 27 "signs".

Also planetary periods are integrated in the system.

Taking all these in account the system work good and well in my opinion.

Taking not these into consideration the matters seems subjective from case to case it seems. When doing tropical work I did felt it was working,
and I still believe it does. But prefer now sidereal chart.

---I could give many examples how this is applied but one quite clear is the case of Amy Weinhaus:

She have in her chart a sidereal taurus ascendent which perhaps not is totally fitting when compared to western gemini asc.
But seeing that she have node Rahu in taurus first house, using dignities, the fact is that rahu is exalted in taurus makes Rahu come forth in a strong way in her chart. Rahu is the innovator newthinker and rebel.

Now taking her chart ruler venus in cancer...opinions could be had about that I guess.
But looking at the nakshatra venus is placed in..Ashlesha
This nakshatra is one of the difficult ones, that is associated with poisons
(drugs) it's shakti is "the power to poison".
She died of alcohol poisoning.
Her 7th lord is mars which is in cancer. Mars is debilitated in cancer showing a weak partner.(It was her boyfriend who was introducing her to drugs) Mars is also in nakshatra of ashlesha associated with drugs.



---Another example is Obama:

With sidereal Capricorn ascendent having saturn and jupiter in
ascendent (whole sign). Saturn in own sign.
This according to vedic astrology gives a Shasha yoga. Magnifying the qualities of Saturn giving disciplined and manager qualities. It is a wellknown fact that Obama is very disciplined guy working (saturn) extremely hard and goaldirected and going to gym every morning.
Jupiter in ascendent give his lawyer business.

When he won the election riding on a massive wawe of popularity he was in the planetary period of Jupiter-Moon (public sucess). moon is his second strongest planet probably as exalted in sidereal taurus. giving popularity.
When he later became president he was in the subperiod of Mars and then Rahu. both in 8th house, and a hard time giving changes and problems (economical).

---Hitler had his Sun in Sidereal Aries (exlated and strong for leadership)
He had Mars the planet of war in sidereal Aries in own sign.


Doing charts like this I feel the system works.
Comparing character qualities is not as telling in my opinion.
When comparing the two systems.

Each system works when applying it's techniques. Western astrology is quite heavily aspect dominated seeing aspect patterns and so forth.
Vedic astrology is much planetary focused much by seeing planetary strength.as weighted in the sidereal zodiac. See which planet is dominating the chart and rulerships, which give rise to combinations (yogas).


---I having a tropical gemini moon which make sense, as I was brought up in an environment of books, with both parents doing academic studies. I feel at home in bookstores..:happy:

but my moon is in sidereal taurus exalted in 10th house, and as such dominates the chart. And this makes total sense as Working with people in
nurturing profession and is very much lunar in personality. Moon as strongest planet is ruling 12th house and spirituality is prime interest. (sidereal sun ,mercury jupiter in pisces)
 
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Shanti

Well-known member
Just read the news.

Demi Moore is taken to hospital for overdose.
To reconnect to last post about Amy wienhaus.Amy had her asc ruler in lunar mansion ashlesha related to poison.

Now Demi moore have her mars in ashlesha in her 6th house.
She is in planetary period Rahu-Rahu. Rahu is conjunct mars in ashlesha which gives health concern and poisoning.
Rahu in itself is related to drugs poision.
Rahu is placed in the 6th house which is the house of divorce and disagreement (being 12th from 7th..negating).

She have a stellium in Libra with 4 planets venus is here superstrong in own domicile..own sign a chart dominated by venus the planet of art and beauty.

Another example i think of the system working good in it's wholeness integerating the factors there in the sidereal zodiac as base.

Her pogressed MC (sa in RA method) is opposite Her Mars in ashlesha
in the 6th house. So Mars is activated now.

If one is using the western aspect system and outer planets (which I also use) one immediatly see her Mars square Neptune for poisoning.
So the event is shown in both systems.
(Her tropical stellium is in scorpio related to poison...)

Victory for Astrology !! Vedic, sidereal or tropical.. you name it !! :smile:
 
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