Missing kid

For horary combustion also usually gives negative testimony. Unless in relationship question when sun and Venus are significators I just read yesterday. When I did a horary chart for my friend's cat we didn't know it was locked inside the house by accident, sun in the chart burnt the ruler of the pet mercury ruler of her 6th house of Virgo later on we found her cat accidentally locked in with little foods and water for 6 days that was the actual combustion in reality.

Well, some new info in the case released by the family with consent of the police.

The missing kid (a boy) was a twin brother to a sister. Therefore, this could indicate what Lena saw regarding the brother thing.

One more thing. I managed to get the natal data of the kid, but I have no time of birth, so disregard houses and the Moon, but here is the chart.

The boy had his Mars return approximate 10 degrees before the incident day. Also was about to have his Solar return.

His natal Sun conjunct Moon/Venus with Mercury mutual reception likely to be the indicator of himself being one of the twins. Only a very young boy, I suspect one of the key progressions was perfected to manifest certain natal promises. Likely to be one of the conjunctions or tight square/opposition that is in the natal chart.

However, Rectification takes a lot of work.

It could be the Sun Neptune opposition got perfected also conjoined the natal Chiron?

Exactly my thoughts. Solar and Mars Return. I am trying to get the time of birth, even if not totally exact, it can help a lot.

Check if natal Mars in Cancer parallel to natal South node. Jupiter is the ruler of natal North node, on the incident day, Jupiter exalted in Cancer.

In Natal both Moon and Venus are combusted whatever they rule in the natal houses should be looked at. Combusted Moon rules the natal Mars in Cancer>Uranus in Aries, Combusted Venus rules the Saturn in Libra>Pluto, and Jupiter in Taurus>North node so therefore the chain goes down the line of rulership/houses.

On the birth chart, I'm much inclined into putting AC=Pluto/Jupiter plus/minus a couple of degrees. But then again in twin births I assume there is a day chart (cesarean).. So I guess a 45/90 dial could work. Maybe a Virgo AC is a possibility as well.

Are there any other brothers/sisters, mossadrai?

I was working on the other thread about a missing brother the OP asked me to tell her if her brother is died from his natal/progressed/solar arc I found it really uneasy to analysis and tell the truth. In term of learning wise if I am not talking directly with the family member I can remain cool headed and be objective with my views. When I am talking directly to the family of the missing person in question I felt emotionally clouded and mostly of course due to lack of skills so afraid of unnecessary disappointment or false hope. But when doing a purely educational chart with no personal emotion invested in it then I can manage better. Knowing if I got it wrong I won't harm anyone.

I do agree an already well trained astrologer can assist situation like this to relieve suffering for the family in waiting. I guess not so much about moral standard to me but instead highly due to poorly controlled personal emotion and lack of skills/confidence. The method and skill itself is not in any wrong or lack of value.

poyi said:

When I am talking directly to the family of the missing person in question I felt emotionally clouded and mostly of course due to lack of skills so afraid of unnecessary disappointment or false hope.

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That is healthy and natural. But if you honestly feel that the chart shows the missing person to be in danger, or possibly even dead, are you being honest with yourself and your client by not revealing it?

To put the boot on the other foot, if you saw the significator of the missing person was well dignified and well clear of any malefics, would you be happy to inform your client that their loved one looked to be safe and well?

If you feel confident enough to give an honest answer when you see a happy outcome in a missing person chart, you should be confident enough to give an honest answer if you see that the quesited is in trouble.

Or. . . don't accept missing person questions.

The client usually knows that astrology is not an infallible art. What they want is some reassurance that everything will probably turn out OK, or to prepare themselves for the worst if that seems indicated in the chart. They are looking for some insight into the murk, not history written before it happens. They are looking for emotional support and astrologer-as-councillor is part of the skill set essential for the professional astrologer. Training as a councillor is - I would suggest - as important to a professional astrologer as being able to read and delineate a chart. Such training gives the astrologer the tools to deal with just such a situation as you describe.

Yes I was confident at the time of missing according to the event chart the native was ok but surely massive indicator of major life changing event to his family and home as he left his family by his own will not abducted as my opinion. But she asked me to predict how he is now from his natal while I asked her to cast horary chart a few times for few months. Analyzing the natal/progression/solar arc can be done but will take really heavy duty of time while I am still in learning process. So I am still waiting for her to actually cast a horary.

If you are interested you would offer better insights. As I am only learning.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69302

Harold said:

That is healthy and natural. But if you honestly feel that the chart shows the missing person to be in danger, or possibly even dead, are you being honest with yourself and your client by not revealing it?

To put the boot on the other foot, if you saw the significator of the missing person was well dignified and well clear of any malefics, would you be happy to inform your client that their loved one looked to be safe and well?

If you feel confident enough to give an honest answer when you see a happy outcome in a missing person chart, you should be confident enough to give an honest answer if you see that the quesited is in trouble.

Or. . . don't accept missing person questions.

The client usually knows that astrology is not an infallible art. What they want is some reassurance that everything will probably turn out OK, or to prepare themselves for the worst if that seems indicated in the chart. They are looking for some insight into the murk, not history written before it happens. They are looking for emotional support and astrologer-as-councillor is part of the skill set essential for the professional astrologer. Training as a councillor is - I would suggest - as important to a professional astrologer as being able to read and delineate a chart. Such training gives the astrologer the tools to deal with just such a situation as you describe.

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There is a Huge difference between astrology done in an internet forum and in private, Harold.

I guess a professional astrologer having a client ought to tell what they see in a chart -good or bad. After all, they asked for the analysis.

But I beg to differ when it comes to discussion forums where part of the analysis could be taken out of the general contex. If an opinion is stated, most of the times there is a backing-up astrological analysis. Yet rarely the story behind the opinion is written down in a whole 'cause that would take half of time online.
I remember a case where a mother was seeking guidance for she remembered a murder case and *something* similar was in transits in her daughters' chart. [...] Of course nothing happened to the daughter -except from experiencing a hysteric mother.

On the other hand, claiming a fatal result isn't much of a help itself. Even in such cases the body is still to be found. Personally I'm lousy in directions yet if I weren't, I'd try to help locating the remainings. That, could help the case to close; Not the fatal reading.

If fatal readings aren't going to provide an actual, helpful result in real life, I don't see the worth in posting them. If we are to do it, let's do it right.

Lena,
2cents

dr. farr said:

I would use the relative strengths of the dispositors of:
-the Part of Captivity (for abduction possibility) = ascendant + lord of saturn's sign placement - saturn
vs
-the Part of Accidents = ascendant + saturn - mars

...to estimate which might more likely have occured.

In the reference chart the Part of Captivity falls @ 7 Leo, in the 10th whole sign house, disposited by the Sun; the Part of Accidents falls @ 25 Aquarius in the 4th whole sign house, disposited by Saturn: both Parts are strong by angularity; however, with dispositor of the Part of Accidents, Saturn, being posited in the 1st house, and conjunct the NN/SN axis ("fate axis"), while the Sun being in the 11th house (house of gains, hopes, wishes, the "Good Spirit", etc) I lean toward Saturn being more importantly indicated here than the Sun, and so I lean toward Accident (rather than abduction) as a potentially more likely indication of what occured...

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I haven't dealt with Lots so far, but it was fun enough! I might be wrong as I did calculations by hand but, I've found:

• Part of Captivity (AC+L.Saturn's House*-Saturn) = Sagittarius 14.13/2nd ~Jupiter quinc.@+01.33
• Part of Accident (AC+Saturn-Mars) = Aquarius 26.49/4th ~Mars quinc.@-00.55
• Part of Journeys -Air (AC+Uranus-C9*) = Aquarius 16.09/4th ~Moon sext.@-0.56
• Part of Journeys -Land (AC+C9*-R9) = Aquarius 16.58/4th ~Moon sext.@-00.07
• Part of Journeys -Water (AC+15.00Cancer-Saturn ~a.m.) = Cancer 25.23/9th ~ Mars conj.@-1,21

I've found also a
Part of Fate/Fatality/Tragety (AC+Saturn-Sun) = Capricorn 22.01 with no close orb

What I've read so far on Lots, you're supposed to pay attention to close orbs aspects -Ptolemaic only- and placements by sign and House(?)

As an interesting side note, PoJ(air) and PoJ(land) are also conjuncting the natal Mars. There is missing data on natal Moon as the position could be +/- 5 degrees from a noon birth..

The AC spreads in a 30 minutes span. That, could place the AC anywhere from 16.58 to 25.43 Scorpio and that, in turns, would add to any PoF in maximum, 08.45 degrees -in case the chart is being read as an Event one.

Thus, maybe with the exception of Lots using Cusps, I'd think to use a larger orb, up to 8 degrees and applying only aspects..

Lena

*= I've used Equal house Campanus system for the Arabic Parts, so Cusp9= Cancer 12.47 and Lord of Saturns' House is 12th, on 05.12 Libra

Lena_ said:

There is a Huge difference between astrology done in an internet forum and in private, Harold.

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Couldn't agree more.

But Poyi said When I am talking directly to the family of the missing person in question I felt emotionally clouded and mostly of course due to lack of skills so afraid of unnecessary disappointment or false hope. And that is what I was addressing.

As for discussing missing persons on this forum, either we can be frank and open about what we see in the chart or missing persons should not be discussed in an open forum.

My 2pence worth.

In actual reality, I have no problem of calling family on phone and telling family to their face that they family member had just passed. The real different though, I could do whatever possible to actually give out practical helps like making a cup of tea, preparing last viewing, tidying up the deceased patient, giving them advices of what to do after death, like certificate and various type of funerals etc. At the very basic minimal I can actually observe their facial, body expression and tone of voice to adjust my communication to maximize the quality of care. In real life, I have no problems with those things. Seriously on internet is totally blind environment.

My greatest blockage here as finding it extremely hard on dealing with death with astrology. If I managed to see that the person is now dead through charts, but I have pretty much nothing to practically offer to comfort or helping them through the difficult situation.

I think myself just in the process of finding my way of coping system in astrology when I have nothing practical to channel my grief for them. Or I simply need to avoid such situation. But then I will be struggling with myself asking myself why I didn't help at all. Just my dilemma. Eventually I will learn what to do. With this current thread is fine. Cause I am not dealing with the family and just purely charts for learning purposes only.

Harold said:

As for discussing missing persons on this forum, either we can be frank and open about what we see in the chart or missing persons should not be discussed in an open forum.

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Oh.. There are cases and cases..
Like when the charts suggests the astrologer to just keep the mouth shut. It would be hypocritical to summon "unradicality" and hide behind it as, imho, horary astrologers did in the past. It would be "politically correct" but that never was my strongest point.

I've stumbled upon three such charts so far with one of them pending in results. Two showed high risk for the querent and the other one, risk for the quesited, if the querent had insights.

Maybe the issue is *how much* we believe in our own astrology.. Dunno.

eta
I personally don't believe in a chart to have to be examined as radical or otherwise, to be read. The above comments concern myself and think-alikes only.

And this is what I estimated to be the Horary Chart based onto the starting time of this thread..

I'm awaiting to be corrected by Mossadrai, ofcourse.

Wow, the thread evolved very fast, and I couldn't follow it. I'll try to catch the pace.

Meanwhile, I have discovered that the boy was born at 6 PM. Probably the time is not right, but as an estimate, I think it is awesome! Very interesting to notice how the AC looks like to be in the Pluto/Jupiter Midpoint that Lena commented.



I'll have a look at the horary chart you posted, Lena!

mossadrai said:

Wow, the thread evolved very fast, and I couldn't follow it. I'll try to catch the pace.

Meanwhile, I have discovered that the boy was born at 6 PM. Probably the time is not right, but as an estimate, I think it is awesome! Very interesting to notice how the AC looks like to be in the Pluto/Jupiter Midpoint that Lena commented.

I'll have a look at the horary chart you posted, Lena!

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If this is within accurate range of estimate birth time. The natal square of Mars in Cancer and Saturn in Libra are in mutual malefic placed in the house of fun and game and house of death/sufferings while Saturn by traditional also rules the 12th isolation and disappearance.

Mars is in rulership over 2nd and 9th so Mars as the dispostor the modern Uranus in Aries and therefore the modern rulership over 12th. Mars and Saturn square seem to be perfected in the unit of 3 approaching aspect in progression. The dispositors of Mars in Libra as combusted Venus in Virgo, Mercury in Leo, mutual reception with Sun in Virgo. Jupiter in Taurus placed in 3rd as the traditional ruler over ascendant is disposed by combusted Venus at DC. Modern ruler Neptune Rx not sure the timing of it hitting the natal ascendant or when it turned stationary and direct. Also can consider supplementary Chiron on ascendant and the motion in progression toward ascendant.

Moon if accurate, is at the bendings of the nodal axis, which is the ruler of the Mars, and her exaltation in Taurus of Jupiter, her detriment in 11th. Progressed Moon should be traveling in natal 8th.

Note that, by Pauline profection, the natal ascendant has profected into the 3rd whole sign natal chart under Taurus (Pauline profection counts the time of birth as "year 1")-and, the SN is transiting Taurus at this time (and at the time of the disappearance) Also, the 3rd house has to do with short journeys (could even be walks in or near the neighborhood)-yet another testimony for something untoward possibly having occured to the child...