Help on horary technique please!

Hi there

I'm very new to horary astrology and I'd like someone to please have a look at to see if I have done this right. It's a friend's questions and I've already given her my reading, just hoping I have done it right. She has given me permission to put her chart and questions on here and is eagerly looking forward to seeing what others say.

She asks the very broad question of "Will I have a family with X"? I took that to encompass more than just family (4th house) but also 5th house (children) and 7th (relationship) based on the explanation she gave after the question. She drew the chart up herself so there is no need to turn the chart.

She is represented by the ASC (Sag) and its ruler, Jupiter in Aries/5th as well as Moon in Gemini/7th. The ruler of the hour is Mercury. Jupiter and Mercury are not of the same nature. There is an applying trine but it is out of aspect between Jupiter and Mercury. I said it was wonky and strictly, you couldn't ask this question because of this but because they are in applying trine I said we should proceed with caution.

There is no other strictures stopping this question of the other questions apart from possibly from disparate natures of ASC/ASC ruler and hour ruler.

1. Relationship - he is represented by Mercury, 7th house ruler.

Because of the above information, due to an applying trine, they could have a relationship in the future. Jupiter in Term, Mercury Peregrine. Answer: yes.

(She is more keen than him)

2. Family (as in functioning family unit).

Ruler of the 4th house (which represents family) is in Aquarius, ruler Saturn. Saturn and Jupiter make an out of aspect opposition. However they will perfect the opposition as Jupiter will go Rx, applying opposition. Answer I gave her was "no". Also I said to her that oppositions (more than squares) indicate a "no" answer as well as Saturn being a natural obstruction despite Saturn's special role here. Uranus nearby (not a ruler of anything in horary) still rules surprises and instability so this also adds instability.

(Jupiter in Term, Saturn in Term and when opposition perfected, Jupiter domicile (night ruler), Saturn exalted and in term. How do you deal with the planets strengthening and in opposition. Family stronger than her, so it won't happen?).

3. Children.

I don't know how to approach this question. The ruler of her (ASC) and children (5th) is both Jupiter. However, based on the explanation I gave for "family" (Saturn opposition and Uranus), the answer will be "no" (then I qualified it as said she might get pregnant unexpectedly and then lose it or something, final result of negative).

Then I assume that she was strictly Moon and Jupiter only represented children. There was no aspect between them. Moon had long separated from Jupiter in a sextile. Again no.

Here, which signifactors do I use for her is Jupiter represents both her and children and also what does it mean if there is the same significator for two houses that you are comparing against for an horary (for example, the above where there is no aspect to Saturn (or Uranus))? Does that normally mean "yes"?
I didn't know how to deal with this.

Thanks in advance and looking forward to seeing what you can say about this!

Hi 23

Mercury/him is approaching Jupiter/her by trine, which is a positive.

Jupiter rules her and the 5th house, wich often signifies a yes when both significators are the same.

However, Moon's approaching square to Mars shows a hinderance. Not sure what Mars is, getting in the way. Mars rules her 6th house and the intercepted sign in the 12th house. This looks like a problem for her. Its there in the 11th cusp, is this a male friend that gets in the way, or a health issue? Mars is in Mercury's domain..

Moon then sextiles Venus, not sure how helpful she is though as she rules your friend's 12th house and intercepted sign in the 6th house. She is usually a benefic of benevolent influence, maybe she lessons the effects of 12th house somehow.

Final aspect of Moon is square to Saturn. This tells me a 'no' to the answer as Saturn is ruling the 4th house.

The chart has mutable Asc/desc angles though, plus the Moon is mutable. A changable feel, so I don't think the 'no' answer is lasting forever, rather it looks like immediate short term, maybe 3 or 4 month? Not sure if I have missed out any technicalities here...

NR

Thanks NR for your help and reading.

Just for my own benefit to understand what you have done. I noticed that you have followed the path of the Moon as it stays in Gemini. I've seen it used before. So using the track of the Moon, you'd say yes to a relationship (7th), initial difficulties to a family (4th) and likelihood of children (5th) because Jupiter represents both her and 5th house (kids). Interestingly, Neptune is in the 4th, Uranus in the 5th.

Interesting that the natural male (Mars) and female (Venus) significators are involved and it is interesting that you mention a male friend. She tells me this male you mention is a friend of X who has now turned into a competitor for her affections. This male has tried to keep X and her apart. She has no interest in him in a romantic sense but is a friendly person that simply wants to maintain a friendship with him. I don't know who Venus is. Me or another friend of hers (I suspect it is a friend of hers that lives in her hometown who is supportive to her emotionally)? As for Saturn, well, I think it's just their current situation of not living near each other and other relationships that they are or have been involved in.

ETA: I think the planets they represent is apt too. He seems to be coy and teasing and she seems to be the initiator.

Thank you NR

Looking forward to hearing responses from others. Thanks in advance...

Hello 23,

Just a quick note to let you know that I have finally, finally joined the forum. Here goes nothing !

On a different thread I had posted a similar situation, where a friend asked me a query, and I posted the chart for further clarification.
Turned out the time has to be when the friend asks the question to me, not when she thought of the question.
So, seeing the date of July for the query, which you posted however in August, which is valid? The date you do the horary chart, or the date the person first thought of the time?
Is the birth of the idea the valid time for the chart, or is it the actual time that you do the chart?
The other thread is http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27425
Thanks

Hello Timtams! Can you please add to the topic!

ElenaP - that's interesting that you point this out. From memory, friend set up chart and asked me within five to ten minutes of drawing the chart. I completely forgot that I looked at this particular chart with her until putting it up on here. We then got discussing on this chart again the day that I put it up on here. I don't think time would make any difference as to the question. According Olivia Barclay's text, a similar situation happened. She took the chart from her friend and analysed the chart that her friend drew up for the moment she asked the question. She pretty much carried on as if this was legitimate and said horary would be violated if she asked the same question again and drew up the chart. She continued to interpret friend's chart with her friend's chart.

Hhhmmm...23, you and NR have already worked this one out and I don't know enough to add to the overall analysis. Parallels ? Antiscia ? Contra-antiscia ?

Although I would have to ask, doesn't your book say that the swifter planet is the fonder party ? Isn't Mercury supposed to be fast ?

I think that in the REAL WORLD, I have already squared Mars (I think he did something again), **** ******* Mars, and in this time line, we have at least another 6 to 8 weeks to go ?

23 said:

Thanks NR for your help and reading.

Just for my own benefit to understand what you have done. I noticed that you have followed the path of the Moon as it stays in Gemini. I've seen it used before.

Click to expand...

Hi 23

Yes the Moon in horary charts tells the story, with applying aspects showing what's to come, and past aspects showing what's just gone. So I followed the applying aspects of the Moon here.

So using the track of the Moon, you'd say yes to a relationship (7th), initial difficulties to a family (4th) and likelihood of children (5th) because Jupiter represents both her and 5th house (kids). Interestingly, Neptune is in the 4th, Uranus in the 5th.

Click to expand...

Not entirely

Moon's first aspect is square to Mars, which might be that male friend you confirmed, posing difficulties.

Moon then sextiles Venus, maybe not so good as Venus rules the 12th house. Then Moon squares Saturn, the ruler of the 'end of the matter' house, which also sometimes tells how the matter will end. Looking at the final aspect of the Moon, and aspects made to the 4th house ruler can give clues. Moon square to Saturn suggests to me a 'no' answer. Squares to Saturn act as big blocks to progress in my experience.

Not only that, the Moon then goes onto square Jupiter, which also suggests a 'no' answer.

All that so far suggests a 'no'. I do see however, that Mercury is approaching Jupiter. Mercury does like Jupiter, exhaltation is like putting someone on a pedestal, perhaps unrealistic expectations also, however Jupiter doesn't recieve Mercury at all. It's an out of sign perfection, so not sure if we count this...

NR

Aha, gotcha NR! Thanks again. I must apply what you have written to further matters.

@ 23, NR :

I consulted dr. farr with regards to the houses to use and he advised me that to have a family with someone you would need to be in a committed relationship, hence I should use the 7th house cusp. For children in that family, 5th from 7th (that is the 11th) and for a home together (I take this to be a shared dwelling), 4th from 7th (that is the 10th).

Drawing on this advice, I shall attempt to answer this question. Drumroll.

I = ASC = Jupiter, dignified by term.
We = 7th = Gemini, which is ruled by Mercury, which is peregrine, in the Moon's face.
Children = 5th from 7th = 11th = Libra, which is ruled by Venus, also peregrine, in Mars' term.
Home = 4th from 7th = 10th = Scorpio, which is ruled by Mars, also peregrine, in Jupiter's term.

I don't know about you but I see a lot of mutual receptions here.

Dispositor of Venus is the Sun, dispositor of Mars is Mercury, Mercury is in Moon's rulership, Moon is in Mercury's rulership...mutual reception by sign, perhaps ?

Mercury applies to a trine with Jupiter, Moon squares Mars, sextile Venus, squares Saturn and Jupiter.

I don't know. I don't think I have progressed to the point where I can get a yes or no answer by myself.

hey

ugrh
another one with No..
mercury is combusted in cadent house ..
merc meets saturn before perfection with jupiter
moon squares mars - I DOnt like this at all!
he is either afraid of you or just settling down scares him.
plus when a planet is in water signs - he/she is mute unable to speak
so i think the whole marriage thing scares him atm

T

Jupiter isn't in any of Mercury's dignities... Mercury however is in exaltation of Jupiter. Obviously you like/love him.
Tikana is right, Mercury perfects an aspect with Saturn before it gets to Jupiter. Saturn is interfering or restricting. Also Mercury needs to change signs to perfect the aspect with Jupiter. That also means there usually needs to be a change before anything comes about.
Last aspect of moon is square to saturn. Another sign of restriction.
I wonder if Saturn is your husband. Both Mercury and Jupiter are in signs of Saturn's detriment/fall

The delineation using whole sign houses appears favorable. In this method Aries is the fifth house of children and Pisces the fourth house is the final outcome. Jupiter has dignity of term. It is not afflicted by Saturn as that opposition is out of sign. X is Mercury about to change signs. When it does it will form a trine aspect with Jupiter. Also Mercury is in the dignities of Jupiter in both signs.

Jupiter is in the fifth house, and Mars the fifth house ruler is in the terms of Jupiter. This is a mutual reception which strengthens the connection with children. Pisces which is the fourth house of final outcome and home is the most fruitful sign and again this is favorable for the question and indicates children. The Moon is applying to a square aspect with Mars. This shows some difficulties but is still positive for children.

I would like to see stronger significators, but I conclude that the answer to the question is Yes. Timing of events is possible using the Moon and profections. I would say that the chart is good for up to seven years and should not be lost or neglected.

@ tikana :

Marriage would scare him because I am currently married.

@ Serendipity :

Thanks for answering again. I guess you are right. Saturn could be my husband. What do people do in situations such as these ? I would try to cast an advice chart but I can't even read a regular one.

@ Culpeper :

You subscribe to whole signs too ? So does dr. farr ! I have no idea how it works. I having being trying to glean info on how it works by reading dr. farr's answers to other people. I'll have a look at yours too so that I'll have more examples to draw from.

I have a few quick Qs. 1) If 4th house is the end to all things, why don't people just look at the 4th house in a reading ? 2) If this is a yes, when do you think it might happen ?

Please do NOT consider my outlook or statements regarding horary as any thing even approaching what is generally (traditionally) considered authoritative! That's why I put a disclaimer at the top of all of my horary delineations! My statements about horary are an eclectic mixture of some generally-accepted concepts plus a great deal of material from a mostly unknown school of thought (the Ankara-Old Turkish-tradition), mixed liberally with early Arabic horary ideas (most from Al-Biruni) and a bit from medieval astrologers like Gerard of Cremona and (mostly re to the Lots) Guido Bonatti.
Having said that, however, I do believe this eclectic mix works very well in practice, and appeals to me very much because of its relative simplicity (with my limited brainpower I could never fathom, much less master, traditionalist horary, and I admire those genius AW members who seem to have done so) I do not advocate my methods, but I have (and will) post information and examples so that those members who might like to try it, will know enough about it in order to do so and "test it out"...

@ dr. farr :

You could never be accused of having limited brain power ! How could you ? You are reading treatises and devising methods, while folks like me have to read a rule guide a couple of times (and check with friends) to see if the author is meaning what we think he is meaning (seems to be harder than learning to speak Klingon !)...

Btw, thanks for the second analysis. How do you tell if the Moon is in a "pitted degree" ?

Timtams said:

Btw, thanks for the second analysis. How do you tell if the Moon is in a "pitted degree" ?

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There's a table of degrees azime, dark, pitted, deep etc. I have one somewhere and if I find it, I'll post it, but you might find one on the internet.

dr.farr I like the fact that you use a different method. Gives another perspective to consider.
I wish we had more updates to the horary questions on here to see if the readings are correct and if they're not we could see where we went wrong.
Or if anyone had known outcomes for their horary questions maybe they could post them in the technique section and everyone could practice.

Re to pitted (and elevated) degrees: I have posted a list, with some explanation of the concept, here on AW in the "Other Astrology" section under the "Can an essentially dignified planet be lost when in the 12th house" thread. Note that my list of pitted and elevated degrees ("celestial topography") is extracted from Ibn Ezra and that I have transposed them into today's chart-numeration (in all lists of pitted degrees, dark and bright degrees, degree areas, etc., which I have examined in the historical works, the degree is always given based on the old method of signs starting at 1 degree and ending at 30 degrees; our signs today are given as starting at 0:00 degrees and ending at 29:59 degrees; so, for example, a degree given in the old style as 1, means exactly the same area of a sign as what we of today would call 0:00; a degree given in the old style as 30, means exactly the same area of a sign as what we of today would call 29; so I have corrected the degree areas for pitted and elevated degrees from the old style into what we use today)