Self hating thoughts rising

david starling

Well-known member
There is a built in tension with the Sun being in the Moon's sign.

The Sun likes heat and warmth and light and likes to be the leader.

When placed in Cancer, it can feel like it's cramped, cold, restricted, and not really living up to it's solar potential. :alien:

I don't get that fancy about it. I just see the Sun's position as indicating how the energy-type of the Ascendant is most effectively expressed. A Water-Sun usually does have a problem fully expressing the energy of a Fire-sign Asc., but the Modality plays into it also. For example, a Cancer Sun would be fairly effective with an Aries Ascendant--same Modality. I always look at the Sun-sign relative to the Asc-sign.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
Do you have a particular reason that you fall back on more often than others when you're in a self hating mindspace? Or is it really anything and everything?

To go with waybread's theory, it sounds like you have many planets acting as your inner critic.

I don't know if you remember, but I have 7 planets involved in oppositions in my chart...

It is generally anything and everything. If it means anything I guess probably it all boils down to "I should know better."
 

blackbery

Well-known member
Not really sure what you are saying here. :unsure::unsure::unsure:


True, the Sun feels weird in water signs.

The difference is that the Sun and Moon are 'the lights' and are considered opposites. They are a pair, but a polarity.

So it is even weirder for it to be in Cancer. Just my opinion and experience
, lol
 

blackbery

Well-known member
I think the Sun would be the most important planet involved in thoughts of 'self-loathing, self-hate' etc since Sun rules the ego/self. Especially if the Sun is in hard aspect to Moon/Saturn/Pluto.


Eckhart Tolle's chart which WB posted about has Sun h1 opposite Saturn

His thoughts of 'self loathing' were so strong and so intense that it made him suicidal. He said to himself "I can't live with myself anymore".

Then he had his 'aha aha epiphany moment which changed his life forever.

He has Aquarius Rising.




.
I have a theory that I want to discuss and see if it's possibly true:

My theory is that when people think bad thoughts about themselves, the kind of self hating thoughts they have is related to their rising sign. I've noticed from reading charts on these forums that people with Leo rising seem to be especially concerned with how they appear to others, looks, and/or people liking them. If a Leo rising person gets down on him/herself, they're likely to say something like, "I'm ugly!" or, "Nobody likes me!"

Since Leo is the sign of ultimate ego development that requires positive feedback from others, that makes perfect sense. And yet, I am a solar Leo, but when I think self hating thoughts, they're not about my looks and usually not about being (dis)liked. My go-to self hating thought, when I get down on myself, is some variation of, "I'm incompetent," or, "I can't do anything right." I have Capricorn rising.

How does that correlate with your experience? What kind of thoughts do you have when you get down on yourself, and what is your rising sign? Think there's any merit to this theory?
 

katydid

Well-known member
Not really sure what you are saying here. :unsure::unsure::unsure:

Cancer is ruled by the Moon, the planet of emotions and inner self, and the feminine goddess energy. .

The Sun is the ego and the outer self, the masculine force.

So it makes sense that the Sun, ruler of Fixed Fire, would be out of place in Cancer, of the Cardinal Water element.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I can kind of see this... I don't think it holds any truth though.

When I'm in a self-deprecating mood, I always attack my intelligence or having to rely on others.

If what you said was true, I would have to have a Virgo or Aries Rising. But I'm a cap rising.
That actually sounds very Capricorn to me. Capricorn needs to achieve, be competent, and do it by and for him/herself--at least, archetypal Capricorn does. I can see attacking yourself for having to rely on others being a Capricorn rising thing. It's not something I tend to do, but my chart overall shows a lot of need for cooperation and collaboration (as I've learned from having it professionally analyzed, and studying it myself). I know I've seen yours, but I don't recall if it's as strongly so.

I don't attack my intelligence either because that thought was never planted for me at all. I have the opposite problem: I've always, always, always been told, "You're so smart! You're so intelligent!" to the point that people will use my perceived intelligence to deprecate their own, or think I can do anything and everything just because I'm "so smart," or both. But ability to do things... big time. All my life, I was told I could do things that I really couldn't. As an adult, I had hidden disabilities finally diagnosed, but they still get discounted most of the time.

So life experience does provide the self hatred, but that still leaves a question in my mind as to why I never made it about my looks or, much, about people not liking me, when many people make their self hating thoughts about those things. I've had as many opportunities as every woman in our society to be put down over looks, and I've dealt with not being liked (also a major experience growing up), but that's not what comes up when I have self hating thoughts. It's all about doing, not being or appearing, and not much about being liked or having a relationship, either.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
How effective is a Leo Sun in expressing Capricorn Ascendant energy? Seems like it's too fixed and fiery, too generous and out-front, to be fully effective.

I think it's the other way around: the ascendant has to express the Sun's energy to others (as well as everything else in the birth chart. A Leo sun coming through a Capricorn ascendant gets... I think of it as darker. More Capricorn-serious, less Leo-playful. And Capricorn rising makes Leo the eighth sign, which, more often than not, puts a Leo sun in the eighth house. Scorpionic right there.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I think Venus would be a better indicator regarding negative thoughts on self-esteem.

Venus is our self-esteem, is it not?

Because we get our self-esteem from other people, and Venus has a lot to do with our relationships and love.

Self-esteem kind of doesn't exist if there's no one else is around to criticize or love it.
Venus may be one indicator, but it's more generally about how we relate: to others and to ourselves. My thought is that Venus is more closely linked to sense of self if it's combust, or at least in the same sign as the sun, than if it's not. If Venus is right there with the sun, it's an inextricable part of core self. If Venus is further away from the sun, and especially if it's in a different sign, relationship is more distinct from core self.

Perhaps that's one reason why my self-sensitivity has more to do with what I do than who I am or how I look. I'm a Leo sun and Virgo Venus.
But the Ascendant is the window or the lens, through which everything else is funneled.

Venus is a part of self esteem, I agree. But the Ascendant is kind of a combination of all of the planetary placements as they are combined into the persona or temperament.


Ebertin says:

Asc: The Personality
The EGO in relationship with other people, especially within the environment.

This.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I don't know if you remember, but I have 7 planets involved in oppositions in my chart...
I remember that you have a grand cross and a see-saw chart pattern. Makes sense that all those hard aspects might play a part in self esteem issues. Which is a whole other subject....

It is generally anything and everything. If it means anything I guess probably it all boils down to "I should know better."

Is the "know better" perhaps an earth thing? I'm seeing a running theme between you, me, and AppLeo: "I should know better," "I'm incompetent/can't do anything right," and self attacks over intelligence. All of us have earth sign ascendants, and all of us have at least one significant Capricorn placement (but not the sun): you have your moon there while AppLeo and I are Capricorn rising.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
As a Virgo rising :)wink:), I believe there to be (Sun in 9th :wink:) a very big difference between feelings (Moon in Capricorn:wink:) regarding self-criticism, self-loathing and self-hate. Virgo rising criticism says something about what one consciously sees as a personal imperfection (don't I know it???). Yet it is something that a person can correct if and when they are willing to do so.

Self-loathing and self hate would seem to go much deeper, often as a result of feelings aroused (planted within) by others. Wouldn't self hate and loathing arise through a comparison with that which to the individual is seemingly not so in themselves?
I agree. I know that the self hating thoughts I get are not about anything I can correct, or at least not about anything I think I can correct. It's not a logical thought at all--I know full well that "I can't do anything right" isn't literally true, and when I think that, I don't mean it's literally true. That thought is an expression of emotion. And it used to be much more constant than it is now. I've done some major work around it, so now it's not a constant companion, just something that pops up occasionally, usually when I'm feeling very frustrated.

But, if it were a logical thought, then, logically, if I can't do anything right, there's nothing I can do about that. It's not a correctable defect.

The content and reason for such deep emotions would make me personally look towards a strong Scorpio connection, and the positions and aspects made by its rulerS.
Do you mean, you would look at Pluto and Mars for self hatred?

Most of us, probably all of us, experience self hatred at some time in our lives. But not everyone has any particular emphasis in Scorpio.
 

blackbery

Well-known member
Ummmm, ok.

:w00t::surprised::andy::whistling::unsure::unsure:



Cancer is ruled by the Moon, the planet of emotions and inner self, and the feminine goddess energy. .

The Sun is the ego and the outer self, the masculine force.

So it makes sense that the Sun, ruler of Fixed Fire, would be out of place in Cancer, of the Cardinal Water element.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
Is the "know better" perhaps an earth thing? I'm seeing a running theme between you, me, and AppLeo: "I should know better," "I'm incompetent/can't do anything right," and self attacks over intelligence. All of us have earth sign ascendants, and all of us have at least one significant Capricorn placement (but not the sun): you have your moon there while AppLeo and I are Capricorn rising.

I don't know. It's less that it's an attack over intelligence and more an attack that one is already the perfect, premonitive being and one merely does not behave that way. It is not just intelligence, it is also a matter of virtue, of sociability, of pretty much every single thing I have some modicum of control over.

And then there's the "I'm ugly everyone hates me I'm just a burden to the universe why was I even born."

I don't know. Maybe they're about equal.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
I think it's the other way around: the ascendant has to express the Sun's energy to others (as well as everything else in the birth chart. A Leo sun coming through a Capricorn ascendant gets... I think of it as darker. More Capricorn-serious, less Leo-playful. And Capricorn rising makes Leo the eighth sign, which, more often than not, puts a Leo sun in the eighth house. Scorpionic right there.

That makes sense. Isn't the 8th house the house of power? Capricorn and Leo are leader signs that both like being in control.

How effective is a Leo Sun in expressing Capricorn Ascendant energy? Seems like it's too fixed and fiery, too generous and out-front, to be fully effective.

LOL yeah it's definitely not the best combination...

I think it comes off as snobbery or being overly stuck-up without meaning to be.

Capricorn is naturally reserved, but doesn't show off so it doesn't matter. But with the Leo added is takes the reserved nature and then projects an aura of "I'm too good to be around you."

Or you could flip it and it would be. "I'm only acting cold and closed because of Saturn. I'm desperately waiting for someone to love and talk to me."

And on a superficial level, this combination enjoys the material pleasures of life a little too much. At least from my experience..

I find myself presenting a reserved and sarcastic demeanor, but once you like "crack through" to me my silly Leo side comes out. Or like I'll be really serious and focused looking and then someone will start talking to me and I'll start smiling for no reason. Cuz that Leo needs to get out.

It's kind of funny because people who really know me often see me smiling and then when they see me only being my Capricorn self they think I'm sad or that something is wrong.

Capricorn-Leo is the like the beautiful king that wears the heaviest, thickest, blackest armor that you can't even tell he's the king anymore.

Or its like a stone statue with little bolts of light shooting out of from different areas trying to get out.

Or it comes out like this: "Stop being worthless you peasants!" -says in a joyful manner-

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david starling

Well-known member
Here's a joke from a cartoon strip from many years ago: " Your Majesty, the peasants are revolting!"(Peasants can be seen from the castle window, storming the walls with pitchforks and torches.) Undaunted, the King says, "I find them them revolting too, but nothing we can do about it." :lol:
Being in its own Sign, the Sun is going to shine through somehow, no matter what.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Cancer is ruled by the Moon, the planet of emotions and inner self, and the feminine goddess energy. .

The Sun is the ego and the outer self, the masculine force.

So it makes sense that the Sun, ruler of Fixed Fire, would be out of place in Cancer, of the Cardinal Water element.

From my point of view, if for example, the Cancer Sun were Conjunct the Cancer Ascendant, it would be right where it belonged in order the express the Cancerian energy. Of course, it might have to get in touch with its feminine side. :biggrin:
 

waybread

Well-known member
Osamenor, I get that you asked your question in a general way, but when we're hard on ourselves, it gets very, very personal. A couple of signatures that can do this:

1. Saturn, Pluto, or Neptune opposite or square one's ascendant, sun, or moon.

2. Saturn conjunct one's personal point/s.

3. natal Mars retrograde.

4. Chiron conjunct, opposite, or square one's sun.

I understand the meaning of "ego" but since it comes out of Freudian psychology, which has a whole lot wrong with it, I'm not so keen on using it unless someone generally gets into a competitive relationship with other people.

I'd rather think of the sun as one's identity or sense of self; and the ascendant has how we present ourselves to other people, whether consciously or unconsciously.

It is possible to stop self-critical thoughts, but it takes a conscious choice, effort, and practice. When you find your brain wandering down the path of self-criticism, just stop it and immediately switch to alternative thoughts-- like self-empowering affirmations-- at the ready. Your brain normally will follow accustomed synapses, but you can train it to pursue different pathways. This is hard to start with, but gets easier with practice.

Anything to stop the typical negative thought-flow is helpful. When you find the old self-critical thoughts emerging, say "Stop!!" Then do something else. Count to 10 backwards, hum a favourite tune, check a cell phone joke app. Whatever breaks up the mindset.

A sense of self-deprecating humour is a huge asset.

Sometimes a loathing thought can be turned into a little wry humour.

No signs are bigger stands for self improvement than Capricorn and Leo.

I believe in a choice-centered astrology. My horoscope looks like a train wreck, and I say it works.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Just in terms of planets being in-place or out-of-place, modern psychological astrology pretty much eschews this concept. Planets behave differently in different signs. As a female sun-Aquarian and lunar Leo, I don't feel my identity or emotional nature to be particularly masculine.

There is some value in Jung's anima/animus talk, but I think it only takes women so far.

Traditional astrology goes a lot further with planets being in- or out-of-place with its essential and accidental dignities. The sun isn't necessarily weakened by being in Cancer, nor is the moon notably weakened by being in a "masculine" sign, just on their own.

In Hellenistic astrology, the moon as "goddess" (Selena/Artemis/Diana/Hekate) joys in the 3rd house, not in the 4th.

So there are many ways to slice and dice astrology. I think it just works better to choose empowering over disempowering interpretations.
 
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