What's the maximum orb requirement for each of the major aspects?

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Cascada

Well-known member
People keep mentioning that a few of my aspects are too wide and shouldn't be considered (I've shown them my chart which was created on astro.com) so I was wondering what you would think would be the maximum allowed orb for each of the major aspects.
For example, on astro.com my Venus is considered trine Neptune and Uranus. Venus is at 27°34' Virgo. Neptune is at 18°26' Capricorn, Uranus is at 18°21' Capricorn. Are these trines from Venus too wide? They're just under 9 degrees (I think, from the top of my head) but I don't know if that's too wide.

Here's what I thought the aspect requirement was (up until recently)
Conjunction- 10 and under
Square- Never been sure about but I guessed it was roughly 8/9 degrees
Trine- Below 9?
Sextile- Has to be below 7 but below 6 is usually preferred
Opposition- 10 and under
 
E

*emma*

Banned
if some people stretch the traditional orbs by so much then you may as well have chaos or anything goes philosophy which makes a mockery of any rules

personally I restrict them to the traditional and then some

Best to work with the tighter stuff

my two cents and personal opinion, Im not a professional astrologer, 30 yrs following it and still a novice
:smile:

Eta the tradition is max eight degrees for major aspects of conjunction square trine
six for sextile
some astrologers expand the orbs for sun and moon
 
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MJ82

MJ82

Well-known member
You know, I'm strongly of the opinion that it's absurd to adopt a fixed rule that is supposed to apply to everyone: the real question is, do some of your wider aspects 'feel' right to YOU? You may find some do and some don't.

I think wider orbs in general, especially with minor aspects, are like a background influence. But many people I know with very wide orbed conjunctions, for instance, feel that these (the most powerful aspect) are very prominent in their lives. There is also a difference between a wide orbed aspect on its own, and one tied into a stellium for instance. It all depends. And it's important to look for themes in a chart too, in which case wider orbed aspects may just reinforce an existing theme that is recognisable to you. In the end, so long as you're not making up orbs of 12/13+ degrees, then it's a question of how you feel about it.

Having said all that, the wider the orb (usually) the less prominent the aspect is in your personality and life. That's generally how it works :wink:
 
E

*emma*

Banned
MJ82 said:
You know, I'm strongly of the opinion that it's absurd to adopt a fixed rule that is supposed to apply to everyone: the real question is, do some of your wider aspects 'feel' right to YOU? You may find some do and some don't.

I think wider orbs in general, especially with minor aspects, are like a background influence. But many people I know with very wide orbed conjunctions, for instance, feel that these (the most powerful aspect) are very prominent in their lives. There is also a difference between a wide orbed aspect on its own, and one tied into a stellium for instance. It all depends. And it's important to look for themes in a chart too, in which case wider orbed aspects may just reinforce an existing theme that is recognisable to you. In the end, so long as you're not making up orbs of 12/13+ degrees, then it's a question of how you feel about it.

Having said all that, the wider the orb (usually) the less prominent the aspect is in your personality and life. That's generally how it works :wink:
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but how do you know that really way out orb is what the person feels as opposed to something else in the chart

I agree with recurring themes so u dont need wide orbs at all

I would go along with wide orbs for chart ruler sun moon and rulerships but no further, hows that

i think flexing the rules too much is detrimental, after all astrology is aqaurian and ruled by saturn traditionally, before u know it it can get into david icke territory if people think they can attach anything onto it and make it something its not
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
*emma* said:
but how do you know that really way out orb is what the person feels as opposed to something else in the chart

I agree with recurring themes so u dont need wide orbs at all

I would go along with wide orbs for chart ruler sun moon and rulerships but no further, hows that

i think flexing the rules too much is detrimental, after all astrology is aqaurian and ruled by saturn traditionally, before u know it it can get into david icke territory if people think they can attach anything onto it and make it something its not
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For anyone interested there is a Traditional Guide with brief article : :smile:

"Table to Show Orbs of Aspectual Contact with MAXIMUM DISTANCE AT WHICH PLANETS ARE IN ORB OF EACH OTHER - The emboldened figures use the most commonly accepted orb allowance. The figures in normal type indicate a wider allowance accepted by some" http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html
 
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gen6k

Well-known member
subjective freedom is not only an opinion, and it is true that certain planets are pedestaled in the chart (rulers, singletons, triplicity, chart location). there is a rule where a Minor aspect closer orb would have more of an effect than a Major aspect medium orb. there is even exponentiality as it gets to 0. There is also the guideline that a larger orb can have a more "present" effect at least in some situations. astrology is about "activation" in the first place.

now let us consider a contemporary feeling instead of a traditional hierarchical disposition.

if one examines an Essay written by a Geminian with a Gemini Jupiter also in the stellium. no Sagittarius planets, but there is some covalence towards Sagittarianisms in the chart (axis lacuni, vertex, quasi-combination states, etc).


Okay so in terms of the Geminism this essay would be somewhat fragmentary, eclectic, informational, a confluence with particulars.

The Jupiter Gemini won't be able to get to an exceedingly Broad Picture in traditional terms, but instead it would look more like a the Broadness of Particularity and how its stream of language is connected up to another bigger structure, is part of the larger structure, but designates it as a particular field of the structure that its alluding to.

the Orb between Mercury in Gemini and Jupiter in Gemini is about 7 degrees. This in traditional terms would be a very weak field, the Bigger Picture not really even present.

instead what is culminated here through the standards of "thesis" (the bigger picture) or "world-spirit" another sagittarius concept in a Alluding-Parallel structure that has a bit of space in between the actual particular and whole fields. the idea-structure position is in itself important to the understanding of the mechanisms of connection to the big picture. its mirroring, its proportion, its encasement of the spatiotemporal realms of its legging is unique...

one thing that is easy to forget in astrology is that the cosmic imprint is 3D not 2D. then if we want to sort out the paradoxes of logic, "the arbitrary evolution and play of form inside 3D", people would need to find out its 4D+ riemannian parameters. that would be one way to get closer to the mind of the self and the mind of the universe.

thats why theres declinations, declination to aspects is another bridge, as well as harmonic position of modulus strip.

it is true that a planet going further away from a planet is leaving a "center", but there is also "no center" in astrology as it is relativistic.

now when someone is doing historical astrology they are already using 4 dimensions, and depending on whether time itself mixed with the other dimensions creates shifts of logic is true it would still have to include the submanifold activity of the disparate significators of astrology. that is why its probably fully solvable in 5 dimensions, and viable in 4.

the hardest part would actually be how is metaphysical platonic features assignable to geometry inside and outside of geometrical dimensions, what would the 5th actually contain?.
well it is possible to quantitatively measure curvature of difference in various physical categories that would amount to ideal. it just seems like the data collection might be too much of an open continuum.
the significators do have their own physical spread pattern inside the manifold, but its a holistic transgressive spread. it must be some kind of loop-back through it. well thats definitely the spiraloid pattern that is overlooked by standard physics and produces some convergence with the world of abstraction-via-enviornment. it would include not only the interaction of significators through time, but also to their original intersecting structure.

refining the categories and definitions after looking at more specific parameters might clear away a lot of the misconception with the "measurnent of data" in astrology. it might be that our way of testing using various non-3D dynamical methods leads to a miscalculation in the effects of actual placements. once the astrological system is eventually refined it would be possible to reduce that data back to a more workable criterion using combinations of definitions. when david cochrane, an astrological statistics analysist says the placements are true when we look, then when we try to test them on a mass scale (using outcome correlations) they turn out only have a minor significant effect. this could be because if we look at a particular placement or placements using the intelligence of the human brain we are able to isolate particular things and point them out correctly. the definitions, even if they are currently unhinged, are actually rather efficacious. the problem could be that if there is missing variables in data analysis, the results come out flat and skewed.


here is the other route that turns out is a way of defining the intesectionality between the novel astrological feature.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51388&highlight=archaic+transference&page=2
 
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Cascada

Well-known member
*emma* said:
if some people stretch the traditional orbs by so much then you may as well have chaos or anything goes philosophy which makes a mockery of any rules

personally I restrict them to the traditional and then some

Best to work with the tighter stuff

my two cents and personal opinion, Im not a professional astrologer, 30 yrs following it and still a novice
:smile:

Eta the tradition is max eight degrees for major aspects of conjunction square trine
six for sextile
some astrologers expand the orbs for sun and moon
Click to expand...

That's understandable. But what if it goes over that? For example, I have Mercury square Saturn with an orb of 8°15 so it's over 8. Would you consider it if it was over like that?
 
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Cascada

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
For anyone interested there is a Traditional Guide with brief article : :smile:

"Table to Show Orbs of Aspectual Contact with MAXIMUM DISTANCE AT WHICH PLANETS ARE IN ORB OF EACH OTHER - The emboldened figures use the most commonly accepted orb allowance. The figures in normal type indicate a wider allowance accepted by some" http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html
Click to expand...

Thank you for the link :) according to this my trines from Venus wouldn't be allowed.
 
C

Cascada

Well-known member
MJ82 said:
You know, I'm strongly of the opinion that it's absurd to adopt a fixed rule that is supposed to apply to everyone: the real question is, do some of your wider aspects 'feel' right to YOU? You may find some do and some don't.

I think wider orbs in general, especially with minor aspects, are like a background influence. But many people I know with very wide orbed conjunctions, for instance, feel that these (the most powerful aspect) are very prominent in their lives. There is also a difference between a wide orbed aspect on its own, and one tied into a stellium for instance. It all depends. And it's important to look for themes in a chart too, in which case wider orbed aspects may just reinforce an existing theme that is recognisable to you. In the end, so long as you're not making up orbs of 12/13+ degrees, then it's a question of how you feel about it.

Having said all that, the wider the orb (usually) the less prominent the aspect is in your personality and life. That's generally how it works :wink:
Click to expand...


If I'm being honest with myself, some of the wider aspects don't feel right for me. But a few (like my 9 degree conjunction of Mercury and Pluto, and my wide trines from Venus to Neptune/Uranus) do feel right for me.

Thanks everyone for your input, I guess it varies from person to person.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
With Uranus and Neptune both at 18 Cap 26 & 21...and Venus at 27 Vir 34, the longitudinal distance is sligtly OVER 9 degrees, so that should be considered a 10 degree aspect. With such a tight conjunction of the two heavy bodies, they acquire additional power as they are yoked or in union. They carry more weight than they would singly...and this particular conjunction is a rare one -- it occurs only about every 170 years or so. In your chart the conjunction is partile (to 05 minutes of arc), so exceptionally powerful. Venus is in her fall.

In addition to the bare-bones evaluation of these planets relative positions, you should also check the conditioning of both Saturn (ruler of Capricorn) and Mercury (ruler of Virgo). Are either of these planets in aspect to the trine?

Also, is the trine brought to perfection by translation of light? The Moon would be the most likely planet to perform that function here (assuming the motion of Venus is around her normal mean velocity) although Mercury or Sun could also do that.

A third consideration in evaluating this trine is whether or not there are other, closer aspects that would overshadow the trine. Also, are either of the two planets on or very near an angle? If so, the orb can be extended as they acquire power and influence (therefore "reach") for that reason.

Are Uranus and Neptune retrograde, and therefore in mutual separation from Venus, thus weakening their contact?

Now.....Those are the questions I would consider in assigning a proper orb to this trine.
Now....I have just cast an approximate chart for 13 October 1993 (the chart is accurate for time, but not for location), so here are some answers to those questions:

Whether the pattern of planetary distribution for the whole chart is considered to be a Bundle or a Bowl (up to the judgment of the astrologer), Venus is the Leading Planet. She is raised to superlative power in this horoscope for that reason. And for the same reason, I would allow her some extra latitude in any aspect -- she is very powerful and in fact is the predominant planet in this chart. Venus beholds a close but separating sextile to Pluto, and she is conjunct the Moon, who has just passed over the sign line into Libra, which is ruled by Venus; Venus rules both Sun and Moon, and is awarded even more power as directly controlling the Lights. The position of both Lights in Libra re-emphasizes the power of Venus and particularly her role in relationships and dealings with the not-self, with efforts at harmonization and balance.

I would, without any reservations, consider the trine to be effective....and even in the face of the two 4 degree conjunctions and the close separating square of Sun to the two planets (which energizes them, gives them more power), would award this trine a good deal of power in the chart. The ruler of Venus, Mercury, is energized by conjunction to Mars (who is strong in his own domicile) and Saturn, ruler of the Capricorn pair, is also in domicile (Aquarius) and trine the Sun although square Pluto (who is also empowered by domicile).

I wonder which sign is rising? Does that directly affect the evaluation? If birth occurred between 88 and 107 degrees west longitude, the Ascendant is most likely Taurus, which makes Venus not only the leading planet but also lord of the horoscope, increasing her power over the life greatly.

To study the question of orb of aspect, it would be best to observe the effects of transits over natal positions and determine for yourself what you consider to be effective orb -- rather than learning by rote from a book. We should keep in mind that the ancient astrologers did not use orb of aspect at all, but considered a planet in 1 degree of Virgo to be in trine with a planet in 30 degrees of Capricorn. When someone says "traditional orbs", just which tradition are they referring to? Marc Edmund Jones, one of America's greatest astrologers, allowed orbs of 10 degrees for all planets; the narrower orbs in use by many astrologers today did not come into fashion until around the middle of the 20th century.
 
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C

Cascada

Well-known member
greybeard said:
With Uranus and Neptune both at 18 Cap 26 & 21...and Venus at 27 Vir 34, the longitudinal distance is sligtly OVER 9 degrees, so that should be considered a 10 degree aspect. With such a tight conjunction of the two heavy bodies, they acquire additional power as they are yoked or in union. They carry more weight than they would singly...and this particular conjunction is a rare one -- it occurs only about every 170 years or so. In your chart the conjunction is partile (to 05 minutes of arc), so exceptionally powerful. Venus is in her fall.

In addition to the bare-bones evaluation of these planets relative positions, you should also check the conditioning of both Saturn (ruler of Capricorn) and Mercury (ruler of Virgo). Are either of these planets in aspect to the trine?

Also, is the trine brought to perfection by translation of light? The Moon would be the most likely planet to perform that function here (assuming the motion of Venus is around her normal mean velocity) although Mercury or Sun could also do that.

A third consideration in evaluating this trine is whether or not there are other, closer aspects that would overshadow the trine. Also, are either of the two planets on or very near an angle? If so, the orb can be extended as they acquire power and influence (therefore "reach") for that reason.

Are Uranus and Neptune retrograde, and therefore in mutual separation from Venus, thus weakening their contact?

Now.....Those are the questions I would consider in assigning a proper orb to this trine.
Now....I have just cast an approximate chart for 13 October 1993 (the chart is accurate for time, but not for location), so here are some answers to those questions:

Whether the pattern of planetary distribution for the whole chart is considered to be a Bundle or a Bowl (up to the judgment of the astrologer), Venus is the Leading Planet. She is raised to superlative power in this horoscope for that reason. And for the same reason, I would allow her some extra latitude in any aspect -- she is very powerful and in fact is the predominant planet in this chart. Venus beholds a close but separating sextile to Pluto, and she is conjunct the Moon, who has just passed over the sign line into Libra, which is ruled by Venus; Venus rules both Sun and Moon, and is awarded even more power as directly controlling the Lights. The position of both Lights in Libra re-emphasizes the power of Venus and particularly her role in relationships and dealings with the not-self, with efforts at harmonization and balance.

I would, without any reservations, consider the trine to be effective....and even in the face of the two 4 degree conjunctions and the close separating square of Sun to the two planets (which energizes them, gives them more power), would award this trine a good deal of power in the chart. The ruler of Venus, Mercury, is energized by conjunction to Mars (who is strong in his own domicile) and Saturn, ruler of the Capricorn pair, is also in domicile (Aquarius) and trine the Sun although square Pluto (who is also empowered by domicile).

I wonder which sign is rising? Does that directly affect the evaluation? If birth occurred between 88 and 107 degrees west longitude, the Ascendant is most likely Taurus, which makes Venus not only the leading planet but also lord of the horoscope, increasing her power over the life greatly.

To study the question of orb of aspect, it would be best to observe the effects of transits over natal positions and determine for yourself what you consider to be effective orb -- rather than learning by rote from a book. We should keep in mind that the ancient astrologers did not use orb of aspect at all, but considered a planet in 1 degree of Virgo to be in trine with a planet in 30 degrees of Capricorn. When someone says "traditional orbs", just which tradition are they referring to? Marc Edmund Jones, one of America's greatest astrologers, allowed orbs of 10 degrees for all planets; the narrower orbs in use by many astrologers today did not come into fashion until around the middle of the 20th century.
Click to expand...

Wow thank you, that was really informative. My rising sign is Leo, actually, but it's still connected (through the Sun square Neptune, plus Sun being in the Venus sign Libra). I've attached my chart in case you wanted to see it.
 

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greybeard

Well-known member
Saturn takes on strong Accidental dignity here, exactly on the western horizon in his own sign. His position on the 7th cusp reinforces the predominant position of Venus, with her rulership of both Lights in Libra. Oh, and now that I have the chart set properly, look at Mars, who along with Saturn is exactly angular.

Mercury, the lord of Venus, will find it convenient through his sextile to Uranus/Neptune,to affect Venus by aspect....Mercury is strong, but subject to Mars. If you follow these rulership threads, aspect networks, and the power of planets as conferred by dignities you will get a very good picture of how the inner self is "wired".

Mars is in his own sign, and he is powerfully angular (1 degree 33 mins. off the IC), so he is a major player in the life. He has a lot of power or influence in the life. He rules Mercury because Mercury is in Mars' sign of Scorpio, and Mercury conjuncts Mars, 4 degrees. Mercury is the only planet with an applying aspect to Uranus/Neptune (sextile, just under 3 degrees...close, potent)....So it is Mars who ultimately determines the mode of action of Venus; but Venus is the planet which carries you into experience. Meanwhile Saturn is partile conjunct the Descendant --- Mars and Saturn are in mundane square, which will be treated, or interpreted just as the zodiacal square. But what they do, in addition, is to bring the family heritage, concerns for land and other 4th House matters into conflict with relationships, partnerships, and exploitation of immediate opportunities...7th House matters. These are the three dominant planets in this chart, and they are tied together in various ways. Mars should be "read" as "Mars conjunct Mercury", but with the martial qualities being given emphasis because he is more powerful than Mercury on two counts: angularity and domicile; he is lord of Mercury.

Well, I suggested the Taurus Ascendant on an assumed American birth, when it was really in Sandy, Bedfordshire. A hotbed of Puritanism back in the day.
 
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Cascada

Well-known member
greybeard said:
Saturn takes on strong Accidental dignity here, exactly on the western horizon in his own sign. His position on the 7th cusp reinforces the predominant position of Venus, with her rulership of both Lights in Libra. Oh, and now that I have the chart set properly, look at Mars, who along with Saturn is exactly angular.

Mercury, the lord of Venus, will find it convenient through his sextile to Uranus/Neptune,to affect Venus by aspect....Mercury is strong, but subject to Mars. If you follow these rulership threads, aspect networks, and the power of planets as conferred by dignities you will get a very good picture of how the inner self is "wired".

Mars is in his own sign, and he is powerfully angular (1 degree 33 mins. off the IC), so he is a major player in the life. He has a lot of power or influence in the life. He rules Mercury because Mercury is in Mars' sign of Scorpio, and Mercury conjuncts Mars, 4 degrees. Mercury is the only planet with an applying aspect to Uranus/Neptune (sextile, just under 3 degrees...close, potent)....So it is Mars who ultimately determines the mode of action of Venus; but Venus is the planet which carries you into experience. Meanwhile Saturn is partile conjunct the Descendant --- Mars and Saturn are in mundane square, which will be treated, or interpreted just as the zodiacal square. But what they do, in addition, is to bring the family heritage, concerns for land and other 4th House matters into conflict with relationships, partnerships, and exploitation of immediate opportunities...7th House matters. These are the three dominant planets in this chart, and they are tied together in various ways. Mars should be "read" as "Mars conjunct Mercury", but with the martial qualities being given emphasis because he is more powerful than Mercury on two counts: angularity and domicile; he is lord of Mercury.

Well, I suggested the Taurus Ascendant on an assumed American birth, when it was really in Sandy, Bedfordshire. A hotbed of Puritanism back in the day.
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I always thought my Mars was weak, since it only has a couple of major aspects, but looking at it from your perspective, I can see how it could be quite strong.
Also, how could you tell where I live just by looking at my birth chart :andy:? Am I missing something obvious lol? Well I don't live in Sandy, but I live literally down the road, so basically the same thing.
Taurus is sort of strong still though- it's on the 10th house cusp, with it's ruler being placed in Tauruses natural house.
So I'm wondering if you still consider the Venus trines to be effective, after seeing my birth chart?
Astro.com doesn't show three aspects in my chart that other sites show- Moon sextile Pluto (should it be allowed, since it's the Moon, not just any planet, even though it's just over 6 degrees?). And one site showed sextiles from Mars to Neptune/Uranus but I think the orb is too wide. It's just under 7 degrees (I think).
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Oh boy.....Here comes Virgo waltzing down the road.

You didn't read what I said. Go back and read it again.

1. Ancient astrologers used sign-to-sign aspects. They did not even have "orbs". Their astrology worked.

2. Marc Edmund Jones used orbs of 10 degrees for all the planets, except Sun (17 degrees) and Moon (12). He didn't distinguish between conjunctions (powerful aspects) and sextiles (weak aspects). In cases where there was translation of light he would even extend those orbs.

3. The tight and variably-sized orbs popular today didn't come into use at all until around the middle of the 20th century. They are a new development coming out of the dumb New Age fuzzy-minded "astrologers".

Use your own judgment. Test things.

You haven't even thought about the difference between an applying and a separating aspect.

Astrology is a system of thought. This means that it is an aid to thought, not a substitute for it.

Feel free to make mistakes. The world will keep on spinning.

In horary astrology aspects do not have orbs. They are considered effective as long as they perfect before one of the planets changes sign, even if they are 22 degrees apart (provided there is no interference from a third planet, or retrogradation does not interrupt the perfection).

With reference to the Moon, in natal work, I allow her an orb equal to her daily motion at the time of birth. No one taught me this. It seemed logical to me, so I use it as my starting point and then adjust according to the horoscope.

Some guy I read a chart for had a Moon-Saturn opposition with 13+ degree orb. Saturn was angular in the 4th, and Moon was applying from the 9th. The guy was a scoffing skeptic of astrology ("I don't believe in that ****") he said, which got my goat. Based solely on that wide-orbed aspect, I made a "prediction" that caused him to nearly fall out of his chair.....and become a believer. The test of orb is....Is it effective? Can you see its effects in the personality and life?

Oh. How did we know you were born at Sandy? (nearby)....
A particular horoscope is possible for only one time and one place on Earth. So it is a simple matter, given a horoscope chart, to fix that time and location. Then I went to Google maps and messed around until I located the required geographical coordinates.... I started with Ipswich, looked up its coordinates in wikipedia, figured which direction I needed to go to get the right coordinates, and found Girtford Halt....figured Sandy sounded good. I've lost my world map that shows that stuff.

If the horoscope can only apply to one time and place, it follows that it only applies to the unique individual born at that time and place (a Moment in spacetime).
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
MJ82 said:
You know, I'm strongly of the opinion that it's absurd to adopt a fixed rule that is supposed to apply to everyone: the real question is, do some of your
Click to expand...
MJ82 said:
wider aspects 'feel' right to YOU? You may find some do and some don't.

I think wider orbs in general, especially with minor aspects, are like a background influence. But many people I know with very wide orbed conjunctions, for instance, feel that these (the most powerful aspect) are very prominent in their lives.
Click to expand...
The thing with 'wide orbs' influence from the major planets is, whether it is an inherent trait experienced from birth, OR, as a result of a progression in which the subject then comes under and experiences its significance?

In Cascada's case, both Sun and Moon are in the sign of one of Venus's rulerships, whilst Moon conjoins a Venus in its natural 2nd house. There could be confusion as to what each object implies and what is actually doing what.

If the Uranus-Neptune (generational influence!) trines Venus but squares Sun, a difference between the two aspects would be experienced.
If well-aspected to Uranus-Neptune, Venus would show a natal tendency to willingly give the proverbial and material shirt off its back to be liked, loved and admired. There would be a 'pedastal idolisation' effect at work. It could flit away its hard-earned 2nd house material finances without a care in the world for tomorrow.
Yet if Venus is not in aspect to the generational influence, Venus in Virgo in the 2nd house would show a tendency to act more thriftily. The act and attitude towards sufficiency is different. It's MY money; I earnt it. The aspect to Moon might still tend to make Venus spend money in a Virgo manner; e.g. on perfecting its own beauty and charisma for pleasure in some way, yet 'drinks all round', 'all on and over me', solely to be popular is an entirely different kettle of fish.

There is also a difference between a wide orbed aspect on its own, and one tied into a stellium for instance. It all depends.
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Expanding upon this point, my own teaching involved the strength of an applying or separating aspect. Venus, as the faster (and a personal)
planet, is moving further away from, rather than towards Uranus-Neptune. Exactitude cannot occur. Widening an already very wide trine would have no effect.

Opinions in astrology are readily given yet too often differ with each other, according to the school of thought followed :smile:. As you say, it's for Cascada to discover for herself out of which mould she is made.
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greybeard

Well-known member
A horoscope is not about "discovering yourself" or "feeling it".

The horoscope is what it is, and an astrologer should be able to "see what it says" independently. In a counseling situation you naturally get a litte more into the "what it feels like at this moment" and deal with that, adjusting your interpretation.

I am 70 years old. I have lived out most of my horoscope. The horoscope is a map of your destiny. It doesn't ask you how you feel about it. My life has unfolded as my horoscope indicated it should; I was not consulted in the matter.

Progressions and directions do not change the natal chart and its indications. They describe the timing and form of manifestation.

My Venus and Mercury are both retrograde in the natal chart. At around age 16 they both turned direct by progression. But their influence on me and my life will always be as retrograde, not direct. Period. Because my progressed Sun is now in Aries does not magically turn me into an Aries; I will always be an Aquarius.

An acorn contains within it the tree it will become. The tree will pass through critical storms and droughts, be struck by lightning, perhaps one day become the giant of the forest. But it will always be what is contained in the acorn, nothing more and nothing less. The storms and droughts and all the rest are "foretold" by the time and place of the acorn's germination.

"Generational" planets act far more personally that that school of thought would like to believe. If you think Pluto is only "generational", ask someone with that planet on the Ascendant how "generational" it feels. "Generational" is nonsense. It is true, but misunderstood and misused, and misguides a lot of astrologers into thinking that those planets are less than personal.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
greybeard said:
A horoscope is not about "discovering yourself" or "feeling it".

The horoscope is what it is, and an astrologer should be able to "see what it says" independently. In a counseling situation you naturally get a litte more into the "what it feels like at this moment" and deal with that, adjusting your interpretation.

I am 70 years old. I have lived out most of my horoscope. The horoscope is a map of your destiny. It doesn't ask you how you feel about it. My life has unfolded as my horoscope indicated it should; I was not consulted in the matter.

Progressions and directions do not change the natal chart and its indications. They describe the timing and form of manifestation.

My Venus and Mercury are both retrograde in the natal chart. At around age 16 they both turned direct by progression. But their influence on me and my life will always be as retrograde, not direct. Period. Because my progressed Sun is now in Aries does not magically turn me into an Aries; I will always be an Aquarius.

An acorn contains within it the tree it will become. The tree will pass through critical storms and droughts, be struck by lightning, perhaps one day become the giant of the forest. But it will always be what is contained in the acorn, nothing more and nothing less. The storms and droughts and all the rest are "foretold" by the time and place of the acorn's germination
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Exactly :smile:
greybeard said:
"Generational" planets act far more personally that that school of thought would like to believe. If you think Pluto is only "generational", ask someone with that planet on the Ascendant how "generational" it feels.
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Good idea! Ask!

You'll find that people with 'Pluto on the Ascendant', differ considerably amongst themselves regarding character, personality as well as life events and fwiw IMO it is not a good idea to ignore all other aspects in order to attribute everything in a natal chart to one aspect in isolation. Furthermore, few can state with confidence their accurate Ascendant since times of birth are notoriously subject to human error of one kind or another.
greybeard said:
"Generational" is nonsense. It is true, but misunderstood and misused, and misguides a lot of astrologers into thinking that those planets are less than personal.
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Of course you are entitled to your opinion - however so is everyone else and not everyone would agree with your opinion regarding Pluto - which btw is invisible without the use of powerful telescopes unlike Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn who are all visible to the naked eye.

Even more important is the fact that Pluto IS NOT a planet!

Quote:

“On 24 August 2006 the solar system’s most distant family member — tiny, isolated icy planet Pluto — received some shocking news: it would no longer be considered a true planet. The ruling spurred a hotbed of controversy, with many experts disagreeing with Pluto’s new status as a 'dwarf planet.' Despite the controversy and oppositions from scientists and laypeople alike, the ruling went through, reducing the number of planets in the solar system from nine to eight.” http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1112681443/pluto-fifth-anniversary-dwarf-082412/


How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming by Mike Brown http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...-killed-pluto-and-why-it-had-it-coming/67242/
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
greybeard said:
1. Ancient astrologers used sign-to-sign aspects. They did not even have "orbs". Their astrology worked.
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Weeeelllll, not quite. Aspects based on signs were an important consideration, called regard, or witnessing. But ancient aspect theory had a couple of different levels. First there are as you say aspects by sign (regard,) but then there is another level for adherence, striking and engagement that required a very tight orb of only 3* applying, 1* exact and 3* separating. These aspects were particularly important. And when we consider out of sign aspects, it was mucho importante to keep to the 3* rule.

graybeard said:
You haven't even thought about the difference between an applying and a separating aspect.
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This is very important. Wonderful to see it mentioned because too many astrologers don't talk about it in relation to natal astrology.

graybeard said:
Astrology is a system of thought. This means that it is an aid to thought, not a substitute for it.
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:love::love::love:

graybeard said:
In horary astrology aspects do not have orbs. They are considered effective as long as they perfect before one of the planets changes sign, even if they are 22 degrees apart (provided there is no interference from a third planet, or retrogradation does not interrupt the perfection).
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I think that what you are talking about here is the conditions for the Moon and if it is void in horary. I'm not an horary astrologer, but I do have friends who are. My understanding is that out of orb aspects could modify the delineation of a planet, but orbs are themselves of primary importance. If an aspect isn't within orb at the time the question was asked and the chart was cast then the planets aren't going to make anything happen.

graybeard said:
With reference to the Moon, in natal work, I allow her an orb equal to her daily motion at the time of birth. No one taught me this. It seemed logical to me, so I use it as my starting point and then adjust according to the horoscope.
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This is a very interesting idea, and a good example of the critical thinking you were speaking of earlier. I think mostly we want to give the Moon 13*, but I want to try this one out too.
 
Claire19

Claire19

Well-known member
For the personal planets I would use only up to 4 degrees at most. You need to have as few aspects as possible on a chart. The sun and moon you use say up to maybe 9 degrees but that is getting really weak. Conjunctions by their nature are close together and
need to remain quite tight. If you have a planet that is in a natural sign or house then maybe you feel it a bit more.

For the nodes I use only 2-3 degrees tops as with the inconjunct.
For transits also about the same orb and for synastry.

This is a question that is often debated and some will want to use wider aspects because they want that in their chart. In my 30 years of experience I have come to the conclusion that too many aspects cloud the issue and the wider ones are hardly felt.

I never use minor aspects such as semi square or semi sextile unless they are exact and with strong planets. i.e. in their own sign or house. I dont use sesquiquadrates, quintiles etc or such and you wont find any real valid information on them. Never use transitting nodes either. They belong to the person born on that day.

There is a lot of misinformation on the websites but the basic principles remain the same, despite all the theories and experimentation.
 
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