The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Interesting, Moira! I wouldn't have imagined that Rudhyar had an Aries sun, as he seemed to treat the zodiac as an evolutionary proposition, with Pisces as the culmination.

Your link simply led to the log-in page at Astrodienst. There are several ways to post a chart here, but unfortunately what you did wasn't one of them. Usually I save a chart to my computer, then when I want to attach it to a new message, I hit the "go advanced" button (below), then "manage attachments." This should get you into wherever you save pictures on your computer, and you can browse & then upload it as a clickable thumbnail. There are probably smarter ways to do this, but this one works for me.
 
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sandstone

Banned
moira welcome! i hope you have fun here..

rhudyar has neptune at sun/moon midpoint( by 90).. no earth signs in his chart and sag rising with neptune exact opp his ascendant.. one could accuse him of having a fuzzy philosophy which was partly informed by the theosophists of the early 20th century..

i liked what rhudyar was trying to do, although i think a lot of people didn't really understand him that well... his book the lunation cycle was quite good in giving an understanding of the importance of this cycle when thinking of the sun moon combo in a chart..

one could say the meaning of the planets will always be much more then what astrology uses them for.. i see all the outer planets as having a connection to deeper mysteries, not just pluto.. then there is eris which is right now an even bigger mystery both for astrologers and in general..
 
Nexus7

Nexus7

Well-known member
Rudhyar got Neptune on his Sun/Moon midpoint? - that explains a lot.

Otherwise his grasp of socio/political matters seemed very Uranian to me, though I know he was more interested in extolling the virtues of some great individuality on high - his mysticism always seemed very Arian in this sense. He was originally inspired by Nietsche and his concept of an Übermensch, for example.I never got on with the more mystical side of Rudhyar, as it seemed so antipathic to all things to do with Nature and the Feminine - when I first encountered him, he really opened up questions for me in this respect. How could someone possessing such a mystical poetic spirit, such a firm understanding, betrayed through choice of word and syntax, so aware of social dynamics, also be so, somehow, biassed towards a spirituality that seemed so polarised?
 
Nexus7

Nexus7

Well-known member
I should think it does not necessarily 'have' to be well-aspected Mercuries that would astrologers make, but rather close aspects traditionally-called afflictions. I heard it was aspects or midpoint pictures involving Mercury, Uranus and Saturn, for example - an awareness of patterns in particular.

As for 'modern' astrology where it does get to be treated as a 'path' to Soul, Self or whatever, then what I have found time and time again that this approach seems to attracts people with very strongly Plutonic themes in their charts - entire stelliums in Scorpio or personal palents either conjunct or in hard aspect to Pluto.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Nexus7 said:
Rudhyar got Neptune on his Sun/Moon midpoint? - that explains a lot.

Otherwise his grasp of socio/political matters seemed very Uranian to me, though I know he was more interested in extolling the virtues of some great individuality on high - his mysticism always seemed very Arian in this sense. He was originally inspired by Nietsche and his concept of an Übermensch, for example.I never got on with the more mystical side of Rudhyar, as it seemed so antipathic to all things to do with Nature and the Feminine - when I first encountered him, he really opened up questions for me in this respect. How could someone possessing such a mystical poetic spirit, such a firm understanding, betrayed through choice of word and syntax, so aware of social dynamics, also be so, somehow, biassed towards a spirituality that seemed so polarised?
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Nexus, I agree. to draw a finer point on it, some of Rudhyar's material comes across as incredibly sexist. Oh, well-- I suppose he was a man of his generation.
 
Nexus7

Nexus7

Well-known member
Nexus, I agree. to draw a finer point on it, some of Rudhyar's material comes across as incredibly sexist. Oh, well-- I suppose he was a man of his generation.
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I think he is profoundly sexist, yet I would say it goes deeper than that, it seems to me he never questioned the patriarchal biasses of his time, which is steeped in ideas of conquering Nature, spirit overcoming matter and all the rest: the worst excesses of patriarchy, in other words.

It might have something to do with the fieriness of his chart, supported by air, and I suspect that natal Moon square Uranus may have a lot to do with it too: as Liz Greene notes at length these two bodies do not make comfortable bedfellows and she should know: she had an opposition between Moon and Uranus herself.

And this ties in drectly with the topic of this thread: what aspects 'make' for an astrologer and the difficulty in reconciling these bodies, if many astrologers have these aspects, may be why this patriarchal world view seems to inform so much astrological thought.

Of course Rudhyar was a disciple not just of Nietsche, but of Bailey and Blavatsky too, and it seems that there is something of this spirit in the channelled entity and entities that spoke through these two as well. I think. Again, women of the times: Victorian repression would have been tough to counter, but I do find it interesting that this entity is now currently speaking through too American women, allegedly, and that both these women were sexually abused as children. It is worth remembering that Bailey tried to commit suicide 3 times as a child, once as early as the age of 5 and I am sorry, but I find it hard to imagine that committing an act like this would just come out of the blue.

So with out without a hard Moon/Uranus aspect, here are guru figures, mentor figures who once again appear to have a damaged connection to the Feminine.

When I first encountered astrology, almost everyone I met seemed to be influenced by these sources exclusively, whereas now this is not so the case. At the time though these things did make me feel that this was not a good place to be.
 
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sandstone

Banned
often people turn to astrology to heal the wounds they carry.. we are all very similar in this regard in that we try to find an answer to our aches and pains whether it be on a physical, mental, emotional or psychic level.. in that regard one hopes astrology can help heal the wounds we all walk around with, although they might not be so obvious to others who don't k now us.... thanks for sharing nexus..
 
Kannon

Kannon

Well-known member
The answer is Uranus. Astrology deals with the sky and its contents. Uranus is a sky god, not Pluto.

Natal charts for astrologers - Angular Uranus with plentiful and/or flowing aspects.
 
Kannon

Kannon

Well-known member
tsmall said:
Well, I just finished reading Joseph Crane's A Pratical Guide to Traditional Astrology, and he said Valens said that Mercury square Mars makes for wizards and astrologers...
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Pinning this aspect to astrologers (and 'wizards') is far too specific, and as sandstone noted, it fails to appear in many known astrologer's birth charts. Now if the statement had been 'angular aspects between Mercury and Mars assist the wizard and astrologer' it would have been more credible. That shows up in my chart: Mercury Parallel Mars. But neither of these planets 'make' an astrologer. More often they predispose someone to writing or talking incessantly and craving debate.

Plenty of astrologers have gotten non-credible statements published. Older or more 'traditional' statements don't mean they are more credible or accurate. Older isn't better, its just older.
 
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sandstone

Banned
hi kannon,

thanks for your comments.. i think uranus angular shows up more often and is a better choice for an astrologers signature... however it's not a foolproof signature either as many astrologers are missing this signature too.. perhaps a strong uranus might work better, but then one has to decide how one defines what 'strong' means...
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Kannon said:
The answer is Uranus. Astrology deals with the sky and its contents. Uranus is a sky god, not Pluto.

Natal charts for astrologers - Angular Uranus with plentiful and/or flowing aspects.
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Good point. Uranus is just a Roman name for a primordial sky god. (Cf: Urania as the muse of astronomy and astrology.) The name means "heavenly."

Pluto was the god of the underworld. He got out occasionally, but there was nothing celestial about him.

However, the underworld does have a big pull on the human psyche, which is something astrologers can address.
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
Kannon said:
Pinning this aspect to astrologers (and 'wizards') is far too specific, and as sandstone noted, it fails to appear in many known astrologer's birth charts. Now if the statement had been 'angular aspects between Mercury and Mars assist the wizard and astrologer' it would have been more credible. That shows up in my chart: Mercury Parallel Mars. But neither of these planets 'make' an astrologer. More often they predispose someone to writing or talking incessantly and craving debate.

Plenty of astrologers have gotten non-credible statements published. Older or more 'traditional' statements don't mean they are more credible or accurate. Older isn't better, its just older.
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You're right, of course, in that there will be plenty of people who are not astrologers who have Mercury and Mars angular and aspecting each other, just like there are plenty of people who are not astrologers (nor wizards, lol) who have Uranus angular and with plenty of flowing aspects. I was only repeating what a famous astrologer had written.

For myself, I have Uranus angular (in 1st) conjunct Mercury (and Sun and ASC) both squaring Mars (angular) in 4th. So maybe if I study hard enough...:smile:

Older isn't better, but if something as magnificent as the art of astrology has survived for as long as it has, then perhaps older had a bit to do with it? The wheel is pretty old, and we've gotten quite a bit of mileage out of that one...in fact, my car still has them.
 
Michael R

Michael R

Active member
Nexus7 said:
I think he is profoundly sexist, yet I would say it goes deeper than that, it seems to me he never questioned the patriarchal biasses of his time, which is steeped in ideas of conquering Nature, spirit overcoming matter and all the rest: the worst excesses of patriarchy, in other words.

It might have something to do with the fieriness of his chart, supported by air, and I suspect that natal Moon square Uranus may have a lot to do with it too: as Liz Greene notes at length these two bodies do not make comfortable bedfellows and she should know: she had an opposition between Moon and Uranus herself.

And this ties in drectly with the topic of this thread: what aspects 'make' for an astrologer and the difficulty in reconciling these bodies, if many astrologers have these aspects, may be why this patriarchal world view seems to inform so much astrological thought.

Of course Rudhyar was a disciple not just of Nietsche, but of Bailey and Blavatsky too, and it seems that there is something of this spirit in the channelled entity and entities that spoke through these two as well. I think. Again, women of the times: Victorian repression would have been tough to counter, but I do find it interesting that this entity is now currently speaking through too American women, allegedly, and that both these women were sexually abused as children. It is worth remembering that Bailey tried to commit suicide 3 times as a child, once as early as the age of 5 and I am sorry, but I find it hard to imagine that committing an act like this would just come out of the blue.

So with out without a hard Moon/Uranus aspect, here are guru figures, mentor figures who once again appear to have a damaged connection to the Feminine.

When I first encountered astrology, almost everyone I met seemed to be influenced by these sources exclusively, whereas now this is not so the case. At the time though these things did make me feel that this was not a good place to be.
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Re: Our Internet Freedom Threatened by Secretly Negotiated Copyright Treaty

The creation of a balanced reality/world/society/government is now dependent on the ending of what has been a long progression of polarized collective energy described by many as the "Age of the God or Patriarchs",that followed the "Age of the Goddess's or Matriarchs".Moving forward we will have to pull the lessons learned from both(good & Bad if that's the way you perceive it), that a great number of very diverse contributions can add to.As far as i know,the return to "FEMININE" principles of nurturing the planet which provides us with nurturing/sustainability has to return to what has been at this point a "MALE" principle of dominion with practical/logical justifications that were once reasoned as just and now has progressed to the point of not sustaining life if it continues.

BALANCING THE POLARITIES WILL MEAN A RETURN TO INNOCENCE.
http://youtu.be/9-EJV47-Ltw ENIGMA Not in a limited sense of regression folks.
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I just posted this above & i see it as a key element in any astrology of the future having relevance at all.The union of polarizing qualities working in Harmony for a new cycle of life,and of man/woman-KIND.It will also IMO, propel astrology to a new dimension of an evolutionary consciousness that has not existed up to this point since the separation of the genders.Jeff Green's material in conjunction with Rudhyar's are indispensable in these studies...IMO,There is so much more to Rudhyar's material that deserves introspection than a few ideas that may have been extrapolated without deeper study.

My Moon-1aries con DC 7th-
square Uranus-2cancer conMC10th
square Sun-4CapIC 4th
opp Mars-0Libra conAC 12th

N Neptune 17Libra 1st ......con SN-opp NN
sextile Pluto 17Leo 11th
sextile Chiron 15Sag 3rd
trine Venus 14Aquarius 5th
square Mercury 23Cap 4th


Transiting Uranus in conjuncting my Moon has given me tools & a lifetime of observation/insights(cardinal Grand Cross) a forum for movement within myself & the collective that would not have had any import if the previous 3 years had not emptied my "Chalice" with the Pluto conjunct Sun on my cross.A renewed interest in Astrology has deepened my life/world in so many ways........

I am at a loss if this is interpreted as sexist.The lessons of my Cross & subsequent Pluto transit has transcended such a limiting modality.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Some of us enjoy the detective work of figuring out origins of things. Retrospectively, it helps a lot of subsequent developments to make sense.

Astrology in particular seems to rely so heavily on a repeated "deposit of faith" passed down through the centuries.

Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology seems to come from the Sumerian goddess Nisaba or Nidaba, who was replaced by a series of male gods culminating in Hermes/Mercury. Intriguingly, she sounds a lot like Virgo, a Mercury-ruled sign.

According to the "hymn to Nisaba" "He (Enki (?)) approaches the maiden Nisaba in prayer. He has organised pure food-offerings; he has opened up Nisaba's house of learning, and has placed the lapis-lazuli tablet on her knees, for her to consult the holy tablet of the heavenly stars."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisaba
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section4/tr4161.htm
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Michael, if it is direct quotes from Rudhyar you want about his sexism, Nexus or I could provide them upon request.

After devouring Rudhyar's books some years ago, after a while, I just found his "jacked-up and glazed-over" approach to astrology to be really unhelpful. His idea of "man's" soul cycling through the signs or houses as some kind of evolutionary process just didn't make much sense to me. And no, I am not some kind of Philistine.

Moreover, I think most people get into astrology or ask for a reading because they have real issues to address in their lives. Reading stuff about "man's" soul passing through the crucible of Scorpio or somesuch isn't going to explain why they are 40 and still single; or why their kids never phone home.

Jeff Green doesn't seem to get a lot of his material from astrology. He seems to intuit it, but I don't think he is always correct. Remember the big epidemic of 2004? Me either.

The soul as I understand it cannot possibly be equated with Pluto, as Green argues.
 
Michael R

Michael R

Active member
I am so sorry you have such a limiting perspective of Astrology.The fact that humans & the rest of nature have a medium to be understood & worked with for a myriad of reasons is phenomenal.

I DONT GET YOUR ALLUSION TO THE PHILISTINES !

Could you elaborate?

Of course,intuition is an abstract principle for you.
 
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Michael, would you kindly let me know if your latest is intended as a personal attack? If so, I will report it to the moderators.

"Philistines" is often used as a metaphor, which is how I intended it.
 
Kannon

Kannon

Well-known member
tsmall said:
You're right, of course, in that there will be plenty of people who are not astrologers who have Mercury and Mars angular and aspecting each other, just like there are plenty of people who are not astrologers (nor wizards, lol) who have Uranus angular and with plenty of flowing aspects. I was only repeating what a famous astrologer had written.

For myself, I have Uranus angular (in 1st) conjunct Mercury (and Sun and ASC) both squaring Mars (angular) in 4th. So maybe if I study hard enough...:smile:

Older isn't better, but if something as magnificent as the art of astrology has survived for as long as it has, then perhaps older had a bit to do with it? The wheel is pretty old, and we've gotten quite a bit of mileage out of that one...in fact, my car still has them.
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Not to divert the thread, but Again, older isn't better, just older when it comes to the flat wheel chart. This chart displays only longitudes (east-west movement) and is long outdated considering that anyone can watch the movements of the planets north-south. The flat wheel chart has never been an accurate depiction of the sky and yet it continues.

Rigid intolerant forms of Christianity have survived for most of 2,000 years. Doesn't make them good, better or even acceptable. People have their own reasons both personal and collective for clinging to their preferred ideas, regardless of truth or reality.

Astrology is a sky art/science = Jupiter, Uranus. It is ruled in the natal chart by the 12th house, as a subtle influence. Neptune's higher intuition fits into the interpretive ability of the astrologer, as can the Moon. Mercury is the messenger of the gods and fits into the pictures as well.

Steven Forrest, astrologer:
Sun conj Jupiter <4*>
Sun-Venus-Jupiter Contra-parallel Uranus [23N38].
Mercury quincunx Uranus.
Moon square Uranus, Venus opposite Uranus.

Robert Hand:
Uranus trine Neptune (ruler MC) <0*18'>
Saturn Parallel Uranus.

Uranus is the planetary ruler of astrology because it deals in the engineering/mathematical as well as the interpretive, besides ruling radiations and energies that fall outside the spectrum of visible light (Sun). When it gets with a personal planet or point then we can see some personal potential in doing astrology.

Some astrologers charts, unfortunately, are not exactly accurate on the Asc/MC. I won't point out individual charts, but you can't entirely judge an astrologer's chart fitness for astrology based on the Asc sign/degree they show. You also cannot get the whole picture without looking at the declinations. Many times Uranus (or any other planet of focus) will show up in Parallels and ContraParallels of declination rather than its longitude position only.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
greybeard said:
The first thing is to examine the WHOLE CHART. One degree does not an astrologer make. How about the Eighth and Twelfth Houses?

And there are many different "kinds" of astrologers.

Some are oriented toward prediction of mundane events, some toward metaphysical thought, others toward building a reputable bank account.

Some are traditional, others avant-garde. We have the natal astrologer, the electional specialist, the political thinker, the economist.... So just what is an astrologer anyway?
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Good point, well made greybeard. And 'newer' is not necessarily 'better':smile:
Claire19 said:
Mercury is essentially neutral and takes on the flavour of the other planets connected to it
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"Mercury’s nature is to contest and to destabilize"

source is courtesy of Vettius Valens http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf who practiced astrology almost two thousand years ago and furthermore kindly chronicled the works of astrologers who preceded him by at least three hundred years

More of the same from Robert Schmidt project Hindsight http://www.projecthindsight.com/
 
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M

Moira

Member
waybread said:
Michael, if it is direct quotes from Rudhyar you want about his sexism, Nexus or I could provide them upon request.
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If we dismissed the philosophical contributions of thinkers who exhibit patriarchal (read: sexist) attitudes from any cannon of knowledge, the bookshelf of the mind would be slimly inhabited. Just because Jane Austin or the Brontes or Elizabeth B.Browning or Emily Dickinson were authors, doesn't make them feminists either.

Rudhyar obviously had issues with his own anima principles; his feminine divine in conflict, perhaps, with a sensitivity to real women that could translate into successful real-life relationship. He was married five times !!!

This personality problem of his does not deter me at all for recognizing and relating to the synthetic qualities of his intellect which did address the abstractions of our spiritual nature in the modern world.

This was his gig, and he did it well. It's anyone's business whether they think his issues are relevant to "real life". We all reside on different conceptual planes of reality, and that's fine. I do believe our areas of preferred astrological study reflect either a more Uranian or Neptunian approach to the discipline, and in Rudhyar's case both were in equal effect.

Anyone have a reading list for "feminist" astrologers who'd prefer to side-step the sexist traditionalists, and yet retain intellectual integrity in this field?

The dismissal of a philosopher's thinking because s/he's not perfectly "evolved" (in anyone's perception) is a perpetuation of simple-minded polarities that prevent astrology from being a useful tool for the evolution of us all. I'd prefer to gauge an astrologer's credibility via their consistent use of traditional methodologies, applied forward to whichever philosophical intent suits them.

It's the philosophy that's the point here, and we are free to accept or reject on a philosophical level. Reducing one's philosophy to a mundane or biographical snap-shot (s/he was a lush) to determine its validity is a dangerous case of polarizing blind-sightedness.

Moira
 
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