A new perspective on the exaltation and The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aq
- Thread starter Kiril stoychev
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Opal
Premium Member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac
I would say in one of the ages of Leo. I cannot determine which one.
I would say in one of the ages of Leo. I cannot determine which one.
Kiril stoychev
Member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac
Why the stars of the zodiacal constellations were important to the ancient Sumerians - because they are close to the ecliptic that marks the path of the Sun. And the Sun is this factor that created the tropical zodiac from which we can derive meanings.
So, in my opinion, which I support with Emeliyanov's research, the zodiac arose as a result of the interaction between the Sun and man (Earth), which gave birth to human civilization (respectively, life on earth). The sun is projected in the ecliptic on the celestial sphere, the earth is projected on the celestial sphere as the celestial equator (The celestial equator is the great circle of the imaginary celestial sphere on the same plane as the equator of Earth). The intersection of both is the point of the vernal (and autumn) equinox.
This is why this point is so important and it marks the beginning of the tropical zodiac.
Houses represent a local system between Earth and the Sun and are even more relevant than the signs.
In terms of ages, they are related to precession. Obviously, this movement must also be taken into account (but since the cycle is very long - 26,000 years, it would be relevant for the individual stages that humanity goes through - ages).
The equinox point is moving relative to the fixed stars, so we can look for a starting point in the fixed stars and track its displacement. But we can also say that the equinox is fixed and the constellations are displaced (because in the universe every movement is relative)
Indeed, we cannot see the vernal point, but we can see which constellation rises on the first day of spring. And today this is the Aquarius constellation.
Why the stars of the zodiacal constellations were important to the ancient Sumerians - because they are close to the ecliptic that marks the path of the Sun. And the Sun is this factor that created the tropical zodiac from which we can derive meanings.
So, in my opinion, which I support with Emeliyanov's research, the zodiac arose as a result of the interaction between the Sun and man (Earth), which gave birth to human civilization (respectively, life on earth). The sun is projected in the ecliptic on the celestial sphere, the earth is projected on the celestial sphere as the celestial equator (The celestial equator is the great circle of the imaginary celestial sphere on the same plane as the equator of Earth). The intersection of both is the point of the vernal (and autumn) equinox.
This is why this point is so important and it marks the beginning of the tropical zodiac.
Houses represent a local system between Earth and the Sun and are even more relevant than the signs.
In terms of ages, they are related to precession. Obviously, this movement must also be taken into account (but since the cycle is very long - 26,000 years, it would be relevant for the individual stages that humanity goes through - ages).
The equinox point is moving relative to the fixed stars, so we can look for a starting point in the fixed stars and track its displacement. But we can also say that the equinox is fixed and the constellations are displaced (because in the universe every movement is relative)
Indeed, we cannot see the vernal point, but we can see which constellation rises on the first day of spring. And today this is the Aquarius constellation.
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Kiril stoychev
Member
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac
such as for example thinking translations are weird from other languages
ours is an international forum and language issues are common
such as for example thinking translations are weird from other languages
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aquarian Age
we often request a sidereal board, but so far received negative response
I notice that moderators have transferred your thread to our MUNDANE ASTRLOGY board
we often request a sidereal board, but so far received negative response
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Opal
Premium Member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aquarian Age
now it is in advertising, weird that we don't have a sidereal board.
I notice that moderators have transferred your thread to our MUNDANE ASTRLOGY board
we often request a sidereal board, but so far received negative response
now it is in advertising, weird that we don't have a sidereal board.
AJ Astrology
Well-known member
Hi Kiril stoychev,
I don't see where it is relevant.
Most calendar systems are artificial. Although we used the Gregorian Calendar, we still celebrated New Years on the first day of Spring until about 3 centuries ago.
Ancient civilizations used a natural calendar with New Year falling on the day of the vernal equinox. Each month was 30 days. There were 12 months, so 360 days.
At the end of the 360 days was a giant festival over what I call the 5 "nether days" although very infrequently there were 4 or 6 nether days.
The fact that we now have an artificial calendar system superimposed on an artificial time-keeping system doesn't have any bearing on anything.
So, the 8-9 day difference means nothing.
That is not what happened. Not even close.
Sumerian Signs & Constellations (English transliteration):
sim.mach = fishes (Pisces)
ku.mal = field dweller (Aries)
gu.an.na = heavenly bull (Taurus)
mash.tab.ba = twins (Gemini)
dub = pincers (Cancer)
ab.sin = her father was Sin [the Moon god] (Virgo)
zi.ba.an.na = heavenly fate (Libra)
gir.tab = that which claws (Scorpio)
pa.bil = defender (Sagittarius)
suchur,mash = goat-fish (Capricorn)
gu = lord of the waters (Aquarius)
Sumerian Months (English transliteration with Akkadian () and Hebrew [] for comparison):
bara.za.nar = throne of the sanctuary (Nisanu) [Nisan]
gu.si.su = the horned oxen marched forth (Ayaru) [Yiar]
sig.ga = the bricks are set in molds (Simanu) [Sivan]
shu.nu.mun = to pour grain (Dumuzu) [Tamuz]*
ne.ne.gar = time of ghosts (Abu) (Av)
kin.i.nan.na = work of Inanna (Ululu) [Elul]**
du.ku = sacred mound festival (Tashritu) [Tishri]
apin.du.a = plow is let go (Araxshamnu) [Marxeshvan]
gan.gan.e = when clouds come (Kislimu) [Kisev]
ku.su = to lie [down] and spread (Tabetu) [Tevet]
ziz.a = flood emmer [wheat] crop (Shabatu) [Shvat]
she.kin.ku = harvest festival Enlil (Adaru) [Adar]
*Dumuzu and Tamuz are Sumerian god Dumuzi
** Ululu/Elul = "daughter of El" El = Enlil and Enlil's daughter was Inanna
The Hebrews used a 6 month calendar of 2 months each until the Babylonian Captivity at which time they adopted the 6,000 year Nippurian Calendar (ending in 2240 CE) and the 12 month scheme.
You might want to rethink your claim that constellations and signs are derived from months.
There is no relationship between the signs and the months, unless you think Leo is about ghosts.
Why do you insist on complicating everything?
Constellations ≠ Signs
Signs ≠ Constellations
Constellations have no meaning. Constellations are irrelevant. Constellations play no role in astrology.
What do you do in Iraq circa 9,500 BCE? You farm 24/7 all year round.
Maybe that's not how it is where you are, but that's how it is in Iraq.
How do you know when to do what?
Can't use Sun. Can't use Moon. But you can use the stars.
When you see this star rising (in December) that's when you start clearing and prepping your fields so when the next start rises (in January) you plant your onions.
When you see this star rising (in March) that's when you harvest your onions.
When you see this star rising (in October) that's when you start clearing and prepping your fields so that when the next star rises in (November) you plant beans and flax (which is used for clothing and rope and other things).
When you see this star rising (in February) that's when you harvest your beans and another star rising (in May) tells you to harvest the flax.
When you see this star rising (in August) that's when you clear, prep and plant chickpeas (garbanzo beans).
Much, much later when you see a star rising (in June) you harvest those chickpeas.
When you see a star rising (in April) you plant sesame and when you see another star rising (in September) you harvest your sesame.
The same for millet and different types of wheat, like emmer.
And for the record, that's all taken from a clay tablet found at Sippar. Those are some of the actual crops and when they planted/harvested them.
If you have herds, the rising stars tell you when to move to other pastures/grazing lands, when to put the boy animals with the girl animals to make baby animals and when to slaughter, because you don't slaughter pigs, cows, goats or sheep at the same time for very logical reasons.
After at time, it will be painfully obvious that the stars have moved and are no longer useful as guides.
What do to?
Create a calendar. To create an accurate calendar, you need a constant for a fixed Time Point Zero and what's the one constant that everyone is absolutely certain?
The Sun moving from the south point to rise on the equator on the spring equinox. That's your Time-Point Zero. That never changes. If it ever should change, then it's because Earth or Sun (or both) are destroyed or the solar system has been completely disrupted, in which case it won't matter since we'll all be dead.
Since Earth is a sphere and the numbers 360 and 12 were sacred numbers (because we all have 12 digits on our hands) it's a simple matter of:
360 degrees / 12 = 30 degrees/days
The sign of Aries, no, not the constellation, the sign of Aries was fixed at Time-Point Zero.
Why Aries?
Because they were in the Age of Aries? No. The calendar and signs were devised before the Age of Taurus.
Thema Mundi. Aries is the start point. Why?
Because the numbers 6, 12 and 360 are sacred numbers.
6 * 12 * 360 = 25,920
6 * 12 = 72
25,920 / 360 = 72
72 is the number of years it takes Earth to retard 1 degree. That's precession.
25,920 / 12 = 2,160 years which is an "astrological age."
The number 3,600 is a sacred number, too.
Ever read Genesis 6?
The King Joke Vision says "Man's days were 120 years."
The morons who wrote the King Joke Vision and think they know god (but don't) and think they're connected to god (but aren't) couldn't translate anything to save their lives.
The root "shnh" (shaneh) is an archaic Semitic root stemming from the Sumerian sar (shar in English transliteration) which is a great year, or age, of 3,600 years.
So, it actually reads, "Man's days were 120 ages" not years.
120 * 3,600 = 432,000 years.
Thus, "Man's days were 432,000 years."
That's hardly shocking and it's not like we haven't seen it before.
In Nordic myth on the Day of Ragnorook 800 warriors will exit from each of the 540 doors of Valhalla:
800 * 540 = 432,000
In Germanic myth, Woddan's walled palace has 800 gates and 540 warriors exit those gates.
800 * 540 = 432,000
There are four yugas: Satya Yuga (4,000 sacred years), Treta Yuga (3,000 sacred years), Dwapar Yuga 2,000 sacred years), and Kali Yuga where we are now is 1,000 sacred years.
An Indian sacred year is 432,000 years.
There are four yugas: Satya Yuga (4,000 sacred years), Treta Yuga (3,000 sacred years), Dwapar Yuga 2,000 sacred years), and Kali Yuga where we are now is 1,000 sacred years.
An Indian sacred year is 432,000 years.
In the Sumerian pre-Deluge King List you can clearly see it:
Aloros 36,000 years
Alaparos 10,800 years
Amelon 46,800 years
Ammenon 43,200 years
Amegalaros 64,800 years
Daonos 36,000 years
Euedorachos 64,800 years
Amempsinos 36,000 years
Otiartes 28,800 years
Xisouthros 64,800 years
Add those up and you get 432,000 years. And then the Deluge happens.
The Sumerians and others believed Earth was 4,320,000,000 (4.32 Billion) years old. Science says 4.5 Billion, but who's counting?
Run precession back to 4.32 Billion years and you get Aries, which is why Aries is first on the Thema Mundi and why Aries is Time-Point Zero on the tropical zodiac.
I just don't see why people make things so difficult.
Yes, I understand that the Greeks really cloud the issue and confuse people because the Greek word for sign is the same word for constellation, but if you look at the context, you can usually tell when they mean "sign" and when they mean "constellation."
The meaning of the signs, not the constellations, the signs is derived from their relationship to Sun and the seasons based on the Thema Mundi using Aries as Time-Point Zero based on the belief that Earth is 4.32 Billion years old.
Yes, I understand that the Greeks really cloud the issue and confuse people because the Greek word for sign is the same word for constellation, but if you look at the context, you can usually tell when they mean "sign" and when they mean "constellation."
The meaning of the signs, not the constellations, the signs is derived from their relationship to Sun and the seasons based on the Thema Mundi using Aries as Time-Point Zero based on the belief that Earth is 4.32 Billion years old.
AJ Astrology
Well-known member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aquarian Age
Hi Opal and JUPITERASC,
Yes, we need a Fail Board.
23,892 charts. Tropical works. Sidereal doesn't work.
You'd have to read 401 sidereal charts in the hopes of getting even one chart remotely close to being right.
How much more proof do you want?
I guess some people just have to fail before they learn.
You do realize that sidereal relies on a fixed star for Time-Point Zero, yeah? And you realize nobody has a clue what fixed star the Babylonians actually used, yeah?
That's why there's like a dozen different ayanamsas, because nobody has a clue. They think they do, but they don't.
When you all figure out which fixed star the Babylonians actually used for Time-Point Zero, let us know. And maybe you all won't fail so badly.
I notice that moderators have transferred your thread to our MUNDANE ASTRLOGY board
we often request a sidereal board, but so far received negative response
we need a sidereal board
Babylonian is nevertheless traditional
Hi Opal and JUPITERASC,
Yes, we need a Fail Board.
23,892 charts. Tropical works. Sidereal doesn't work.
You'd have to read 401 sidereal charts in the hopes of getting even one chart remotely close to being right.
How much more proof do you want?
I guess some people just have to fail before they learn.
You do realize that sidereal relies on a fixed star for Time-Point Zero, yeah? And you realize nobody has a clue what fixed star the Babylonians actually used, yeah?
That's why there's like a dozen different ayanamsas, because nobody has a clue. They think they do, but they don't.
When you all figure out which fixed star the Babylonians actually used for Time-Point Zero, let us know. And maybe you all won't fail so badly.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aquarian Age
and no western sidereal boards
so much sidereal discussion on our boards
and no western sidereal boards
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aquarian Age
for your comments - for example the following
Kiril stoychev
Member
Hi AJ Astrology,
Thanks for the comprehensive post on the topic.
In many places it overlaps with what I claim.
The tropical zodiac works, not because someone created it, but because the life on earth is directly related to the energy (light and heat) we receive from the Sun.
The tropical zodiac (as well as the calendar) is a reflection of reality and time. We measure time thanks to the sun and the moon. The calendar shows the amount of time and the tropical zodiac its quality.
Thema Mundi is not a real chart, but a study chart, according to Firmicus Maternus
Thanks for the comprehensive post on the topic.
In many places it overlaps with what I claim.
The tropical zodiac works, not because someone created it, but because the life on earth is directly related to the energy (light and heat) we receive from the Sun.
The tropical zodiac (as well as the calendar) is a reflection of reality and time. We measure time thanks to the sun and the moon. The calendar shows the amount of time and the tropical zodiac its quality.
Thema Mundi is not a real chart, but a study chart, according to Firmicus Maternus
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Opal
Premium Member
Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aquarian Age
You start every post, that I have seen, to everyone in every thread, with an insult. It must be because of your insecurities in life.
I have no idea what you write. I read your insult to whoever you have chosen to respond to, and read no further. It is handy. I don't even need ignore.
You start every post, that I have seen, to everyone in every thread, with an insult. It must be because of your insecurities in life.
I have no idea what you write. I read your insult to whoever you have chosen to respond to, and read no further. It is handy. I don't even need ignore.
Kiril stoychev
Member
Sumerian's translation and even spelling of the months is not quite accurate. The first month is "[FONT="]BARA2-ZA3-GAR[/FONT]". Translation according to the leading Russian sumerologist Dr. Emelianov is "Renewal of throne of the sanctuary = intronization, a coronation, crowning ceremony"
----------------
If you want to learn more about this topic, you should read his book, unfortunately only in Russian:
Emelianov, Vladimir. Nippur calendar and the early history of the zodiac. St. Petersburg Oriental Studies. 1999.
----------------
If you want to learn more about this topic, you should read his book, unfortunately only in Russian:
Emelianov, Vladimir. Nippur calendar and the early history of the zodiac. St. Petersburg Oriental Studies. 1999.
AJ Astrology
Well-known member
the idea of there being "Astrological Ages" is not considered a traditional topic
Hi JUIPITERASC,
That much is true. Ages are a modern astrology concept. It has no place in traditional astrology because nobody ever cared about the ages.
They did have huge festivals when they changed from Gemini to Taurus and Taurus to Aries.
Sun rises in Aquarius in:
2499 (Fagen)
2207 (Deluce/Lahiri)
2602 (Raman)
2511 (Krishnamurti)
2779 (Ushanashi)
2201 (Djwhal Khul)
2601 (Sundara Rajan)
2702 (Sri Yuktessar)
2222 (Ely)
2500 (Takra)
Maybe you all can figure which one of those very fine sidereal systems is the real one.
Kinda reminds me of modern astrology. We can argue what Pluto actually does and then when we get tired of doing that, we can argue about whether Pluto is really a planet. And then when get tired of arguing about whether Pluto is planet, we can go back and argue about what Pluto really does.
Hi Kiril stoychev,
The rising of Sun on the vernal equinox is what marked the change.
I'll explain that......
....there's a clay tablet that lists the ages from Pisces to Taurus with commentary for all except Taurus, presumably because the tablet was written during the age of Taurus.
The tablet is broken so it's not possible to read the comments for Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn and Sagittarius, and only part of Scorpio, but there is commentary for Libra, Virgo, Leo, Cancer and Gemini.
The comment for Leo is that a sphinx was built in Egypt to mark the Deluge. Since they were usually in pairs, I'd guess there might have been a second sphinx on the Saudi Peninsula across the Red Sea, or maybe even in India.
What does that have to do with ages?
The Sumerian story of the Deluge is that Nergal has an observatory in his domain in southern Africa and sees something in the heavens. It never says what exactly he saw, but a reasonable guess is an asteroid or comet. He calls his father Enki and brother Ningishiddza to confirm it. They send for Marduk who comes down and says, yeah I see what you're seeing.
The four of them go to Enlil and tell him this thing is going to happen and wipe out most humans. Enlil calls an emergency council of the gods, tells them what's going to happen and then makes them swear an oath of secrecy to not tell any humans of the pending disaster.
According to the Sumerians, Enki and his half-sister Ninhursag and son Ningishiddza create humans and Enki loves humans.
Enki wanted to give humans knowledge, but Enlil and two of his sons Ninurta/El Shaddai and Adad say no, but Enki does it anyway and makes Enlil mad. The Hebrews perverted that story into a morality play, but the serpent in the Garden of Eden is Enki, who like his son Ningishiddza was a "serpent god" and their symbol was two snakes entwined on a pole, the caduceus the symbol for the medical profession today.
Enki finds a way to tell his faithful servant Ziursurda without violating his oath of secrecy how to build a certain ship and the name of a man who can navigate the ship.
The Deluge lasts 3-5 days and the gods, where ever they were watching it all were horrified and started crying. When it's over, the gods are walking around and Enlil sees smoke from a camp-fire. He knows Enki tricked him again, but he isn't mad, he's actually happy. Enlil finds Ziusurda and entourage and promises that nothing like this will ever happen again, a rainbow appears in the sky and Enlil says that's a symbol of our promise to you.
Now, fast forward a few ages to the end of the age of Taurus.
Previously, the gods had divided duties on Earth by drawing lots. An drew the short straw and got the heavens, Enlil got Eurasia and Enki got Africa, plus Enlil was in charge of Earth....
...until the age of Aries. When Aries came, Enki was supposed to take over and rule Earth, but he had no desire to rule so he gave the honor to his son Marduk.
Marduk is at his brother Nergal's observatory in southern Africa, then goes to the council of gods and says, hey, we're in Aries. I'm supposed to be ruling now.
The gods say, no, we're still in the age of Taurus. Marduk says, no, when the Deluge happened, it did something to Earth to mess up the skies. We're supposed be in Aries. The gods say, we don't care what happened, you can start ruling just as soon as Sun rises in Aries.
Marduk gets mad and declares war on the gods (except his father Enki who decided to sit it out).
Marduk's first-born son is Nabu, like King Nebuchadnezzar which means something like blessed of Nabu or beloved of Nabu or something like that. Nabu is commanding Marduk's armies, who happen to be located in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Ninurta/El Shaddai, one of Enlil's sons and Nergal a son of Enki destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in an attempt to destroy Marduk's armies. That's another story the Hebrews turned into just another morality play. They are successful, but it doesn't matter because Marduk ends up winning the war anyway.
If you're wondering what Marduk was talking about, there are impact sites in Canada and the US dated to 12,000 years ago during the age of Leo.
The friction in Earth's atmosphere will cause smaller asteroids and comets to oblate, which is a fancy way of saying "deform." Pieces break off and those impact sites suggest that's exactly what happened.
You can imagine an asteroid or comet landing in the south Pacific Ocean. It would generate a tsunami. It might even melt or partially melt one of the ice sheets on Antarctica and make it worse.
The tsunami, or the asteroid impact, or both could retard the rotational speed of Earth. Not by much. Maybe one-one hundredth of a second (0.01).
That's not a lot. We'd never notice that.
But over a long period of time, say 10,000 years, that 0.01 second turns into 36,500" of arc which is 608' of arc which is 10 degrees of arc.
You can see why Marduk might be very angry if he thought things were off-kilter by a few degrees of arc.
Anyway, they marked ages by sunrise on the equinox, and I think it's reasonably clear they were referring to constellations and not signs.