Astrology Shame

Zarathu

Account Closed
Ditto, Mdinaz.

At least some of the organizations that purport to increase interaction on astrology only do so if you are part of their club.

I've contacted NGCR three times asking them for informtion about how to start a chapter in Maine. They simply ignore me.

I guess I'm not part of their little clicky club. I've never become a member(why would I when there is no group nearby?), and I have no need for their little tests, which I don't think a lot of after talking to a couple NGCR IV's who had no idea what I was talking about and never heard of many of the techniques I use.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
Then perhaps "shame" is not the right word. "Shame" implies guilt, which implies a recognition that what you have done is wrong and needs to be corrected. I've done nothing wrong, so there is no guilt and thus no shame. If someone else has a problem with it, they can feel the shame for being close-minded, bigoted, ignorant, or whatever adjective fits.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
Ditto, Mdinaz.

At least some of the organizations that purport to increase interaction on astrology only do so if you are part of their club.

I've contacted NGCR three times asking them for informtion about how to start a chapter in Maine. They simply ignore me.

I guess I'm not part of their little clicky club. I've never become a member(why would I when there is no group nearby?), and I have no need for their little tests, which I don't think a lot of after talking to a couple NGCR IV's who had no idea what I was talking about and never heard of many of the techniques I use.

I view some of those organizations the same way I view a lot of weekend warrior bikers who get their first Harley. Up until then the Harley riders completely ignored these people. Even if they rode up on another make of bike, they'd still ignore them, or make fun of them until they buy "a real bike". Once they buy the Harley, all of the sudden they are best friends and a "brotherhood". Until they sell the bike, and then they are cast out again. F*** these kinds of people. I'll chat and be friends with any person, astrologer or non-astrologer, western or vedic, whatever, whenever. If they know or are interested in astrology, I'll talk to them about it. If not, I won't, I'll find something we do have in common. That's called "social skills".
 

Pluto2909

Well-known member
Hey,
don't you worry, dear. I think they're like children. It's ok if someone doesn't believe in astrology, but when they don't accept you for your passion... Well, it's just immature. My dearest friend is totally Atheist and accept my hobby. And one of my friends, who doesn't believe it too, gave me his birth details so I can learn! He even lets me ask what is happening during transits to his natal planets. :lol:

And don't get me wrong - I don't find 'immaturity' bad, it's people's choice if they prefer to talk with an astrologist or not. It's like... children can do some nasty things, right? They just aren't aware it's something inappropriate, because they're on some point of their development. They don't get it even if you tell them 'you shouldn't do it, it's wrong'. As they grow up, they start to understand.
And some just need more time. Some will never learn... .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_G-Bxa6W0Q&hd=1

:smile:
 

Jesse Booth

Well-known member
I can't really relate to this concept of astrology shame. For a while now, the philosophy I live my life by has been something like this: Never feel ashamed of your opinions and beliefs, because you are who you are; no more, no less.

Oh wow, I previous read the "can't really relate" as a "can really relate".

Nevertheless I think you understand it, even though it's not your chosen experience. For one, because you've chosen to respond on this thread and secondly, because you're philosophy that we can't be more or less than what we are, is spot on.



This is exactly right and in fact, any nervosity I experience with regards to sharing my beliefs with others mirrors my shame of those beliefs, and therefore an inner belief they are in fact defective.

This is not so much about forcefully eradicating the nervosity as it is about pinning down its source.

I have to say though - and I don't know if you experience this with regards to astrology or not - any time we feel threatened by the thought of reconsidering a belief at all, be it what we consider benign or malignant, it's a red flag.

Nevertheless I think you understand it, even though it's not your chosen experience. For one, because you've chosen to respond on this thread and secondly, because you're philosophy that we can't be more or less than what we are, is spot on.

You're right. I do understand it, though I cannot relate to this instance of peer-shaming(I patented this word, by the way. You have to mail me eleven cents every time you use it!). I developed my aforementioned philosophy a few years before I found astrology. There was a time in my life when I felt ashamed of my political beliefs because of how liberal many of my friends are. I called myself a Republican, and of course, since all Republicans are evil and racist, I must be evil and racist! After a while, I decided to just stop talking about politics, but that didn't make me feel any better. So after a lot of thinking, I decided to wear my mark of shame as a badge. I didn't even feel that strongly for everything I argued for, I was just sick of people making me feel ashamed of my different opinion! Isn't it hilarious? The real nonconformists of our time are the conservatives! Of course, I became a libertarian shortly after finding out there were more than just two options, but at the time the closest match to my opinions was the Republican party's platform.

This is not so much about forcefully eradicating the nervosity as it is about pinning down its source.

Again you're right. I am not forcefully eradicating nervousness; I am simply accepting a part of myself, and refusing to bend knee to other's doubts about the things I study. If I ever feel any kind of doubt in astrology, it's concern about my calculations, not the astrological methods I am applying. I have no doubt that astrology is an accurate - when it is properly applied. And I am certainly a novice!

I have to say though - and I don't know if you experience this with regards to astrology or not - any time we feel threatened by the thought of reconsidering a belief at all, be it what we consider benign or malignant, it's a red flag.

I don't feel threatened by thoughts of doubt of astrology. In fact, every new branch of astrology I begin to study, I force myself to question it! If something doesn't add up right, then it is either wrong, or horribly miscommunicated; either one brings out my Virgo Moon monster, and I criticize the living cr*p out of it! Whenever this happens, everything gets a turn on the insult train, and there's no brakes! Egos get deflated! Arguments are invalidated! Memes are memed! Fortunately, one of the relatively less painful and public lessons Saturn has pounded into my skull is to be absolutely certain of what I'm criticizing before I open my mouth. I learned that one on this very forum, in fact! But once I have found the subject of my interest to be sufficiently accurate(I prefer no less than 95% accuracy, usually), I simply accept the truth for what it is - the truth.

images

"After all, it would be illogical to deny the facts."
-I'm 96% sure this is a Spock quote​
 
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StillConfused

Well-known member
Love to know where the Asteroid Nemesis is in your natal, StillConfused. Since none of your charts from previous starter threads still exist, perhaps you would PM me the data---confidentially of course.

The asteroid Nemesis is at 02°07' Leo (tropical).

This is conjunct the 6th cusp if Placidus is used, in the 5th using equal house, and in the 6th using the whole sign house system.

conjunct Chiron (3°)
semi-sextile SN (this applies for both true and mean nodes but is exact with mean)
quincunx NN
sextile Sun (exact)

EDIT: bi-quintile AC (1°)

EDIT again: As you know I'm currently into Vedic astrology, but looking back at your website Zarathu, I'm intrigued by the wholistic approach you have to looking at charts within what is available to Western astrologers, so I'll PM you my birth details.
 
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Yanel

Well-known member
In case you were wondering what the insult train is, this is it.
d56864b5b945413f35b860fe958f1e36bf6e461f67c320035a4328be5777f418.jpg
You're sor riht about the opinions and insults and....right now I'm so pissed off at the world, my shame is from the fact that I live here. Until now I constantly repeated that school won't get us anywhere, that studying won't get idealists anywhere, that civilazation(the greatest mistake and sin) will get us only....nowhere. But yesterday I was in a situation where everyone, if observant enough, could see it right in front of their eyes - a teacher with a big, Big ego, 'full of principles and so many years of experience and teaching, and time-tested qualities of the personality' and blah-blah...full of complexes and with a fragile ego. I wrote an essay. No, I didn't - I envented a new philosophical concept in a moment when my psychic powers were so high, I literally felt everything there is to be felt, it was brilliant, it was mine and my friend, who is like-minded, loved it so much and....The teacher(which is the teacher that I "hated"since the start. Since the moment she came in the classroom, she hasn't even uttered a word when I sensed her aura) didn't know what to say. She couldn't comment on it. She just said that it wasn't close to the topic(it was) and I got a lower mark than the guy who have copied his essay from internet(and she knew it and said it before the whole class that he had copied it and still...). But I don't care about the mark. OMG, you should have seen her! She literally struggled with showing the "right"emotions! She didn't even comment on what I have written, her ego was questioned(because she perceived herself as a philosopher, an abstract thinker, a higher being) so deeply, she couldn't bare to say a good word about what I've written. She even asked me to rewrite it! Either she is more stupid(for not understanding it) than I thought(the first guess of my friend) or her ego and false-perceived character were her problem. But can someone be that stupid? I'm out of my mind, the world has again proven to be useless.
Sorry for the off-topic comment, but Jesse, when you said that we should stand behind our opinions...I have no shame, not even in front of myself!
P.S. A day will come and I will be one of the most famous writers and I will post my essay in my personal blog(that, of course, will be followed by the whole world xD no, I'm not humble. Just two years and I burn this world.) and everyone that have wronged me will cry inwardly. And those who haven't will cry, too. Everyone will cry. But nobody can 'repay' me my tragical child and teen years. No one.
 
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mdinaz

Well-known member
Jesse Booth hit upon another area that I have experience in - being interested in "new age" stuff like astrology, tarot, and so on - realms that are populated nearly 100% by people that are politically on the left. I'm also very conservative and Libertarian, and one of the handful of people who fit this mold of being into "new age" stuff (I hate the term "new age" as it is neither new nor an age) and on the right, politically. These very "liberal" people cannot even see the dichotomy of what they believe politically versus "new age" ideals - the entire premise of the new age is that we are all responsible for ourselves, we create our own reality and we need to work together while also taking care of our own and making our own decisions and doing what is best for ourselves. This is the very opposite of what the left believes ideologically, yet these people hold new age beliefs but have a political view that is the exact opposite - that government should force people to do things to modify behavior (like telling me what to eat, or not smoke, or what to drive, etc), that nobody is responsible for what they do, it is society's fault, your parents fault, and that "tolerance" only applies to what they consider ok, but not to you if you don't fall in line as your view "offends" them, or upsets them.

That said, I make no apologies for astrology or being politically on the right. If I'm with a group of friends and someone makes an incredibly ignorant or bigoted comment, I'm going to call it out. If that makes you uncomfortable because you can't find the words to defend it, that's your problem. Keep your yap shut next time and your opinions to yourself. I never discuss either subject in mixed company unless someone else brings it up first and sometimes not even then.
 

Jesse Booth

Well-known member
I can't imagine why anyone who studies Astrology wouldn't be a libertarian; when you know without a doubt that everyone is entirely unique, and has their own talents, gifts, and challenges to use and to deal with over the course of their lives, why on Earth would you think that having a government that takes as much control of your life as possible would be a good thing? Many people I've had the great personal fortune of running circles around in debates complained almost endlessly about how corrupt capitalism is, and how evil businessmen are. Unfortunately, some of those people are on this forum. I actually noticed quite a few communists on the thread about the difference between men and women. I'm not insulting someone, these people actually called themselves communists. If something like money has an area of influence in Astrology, how can it be inherently evil?
 

tsmall

Premium Member
I can't imagine why anyone who studies Astrology wouldn't be a libertarian;

I study astrology, and I'm not a Libertarian. I'm a dyed in the wool Liberal, and hey, ho that's in my natal chart. I also study Traditional astrology, and that, too, is in my natal chart. Maybe you just need to spend more time studying natal charts before you make sweeping comments like this one?

when you know without a doubt that everyone is entirely unique, and has their own talents, gifts, and challenges to use and to deal with over the course of their lives, why on Earth would you think that having a government that takes as much control of your life as possible would be a good thing? Many people I've had the great personal fortune of running circles around in debates complained almost endlessly about how corrupt capitalism is, and how evil businessmen are. Unfortunately, some of those people are on this forum. I actually noticed quite a few communists on the thread about the difference between men and women. I'm not insulting someone, these people actually called themselves communists. If something like money has an area of influence in Astrology, how can it be inherently evil?

I have abstained from your idea of debates, because while I may be a dyed in the wool Liberal who studies traditional astrology, I also remember what it was like to be 17 and know absolutely everything. You'll get there someday, too. When you realize that you don't know everything. Once you do, perhaps your mind will be opened to other ideas. If not? Enh.

If you are not part of the solution of compromise you are part of the problem.

Not everyone is entirely unique. That, Luke, is the lesson you ned to learn. There is nothing new under the Sun...

We can come to astrology thinking that we are all special snoflake indigo children, and please tell me what in my natal chart points to my being right about everything...me, me, me. One day, we wake up and realize that me isn't so special in the grand scheme of things, and the only thing that me can infulence is possibly the close world around me.

If something like money has an influence on astrolgy how can it be inherently evil? Which, money or astrology?

Everything is influenced by money. Including astrology. Including the Pauls. including...everything. So the real question is...is your personal astrology influenced by money? If not, what exactly can you do to help humanity with it?
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Jesse Booth hit upon another area that I have experience in - being interested in "new age" stuff like astrology, tarot, and so on - realms that are populated nearly 100% by people that are politically on the left. I'm also very conservative and Libertarian, and one of the handful of people who fit this mold of being into "new age" stuff (I hate the term "new age" as it is neither new nor an age) and on the right, politically. These very "liberal" people cannot even see the dichotomy of what they believe politically versus "new age" ideals - the entire premise of the new age is that we are all responsible for ourselves, we create our own reality and we need to work together while also taking care of our own and making our own decisions and doing what is best for ourselves. This is the very opposite of what the left believes ideologically, yet these people hold new age beliefs but have a political view that is the exact opposite - that government should force people to do things to modify behavior (like telling me what to eat, or not smoke, or what to drive, etc),

Dear Lord, save me.

Ok, it's late, but really? really? Who exactly in the political equation is saying that I as a woman hold no reproductive rights, and who exactly is saying that it is perfectly fine to discriminate against those who do not believe the way libertarians do? As in, who is it that wants to build discrimination back into the good ol' US of A?

that nobody is responsible for what they do, it is society's fault, your parents fault, and that "tolerance" only applies to what they consider ok, but not to you if you don't fall in line as your view "offends" them, or upsets them.

That said, I make no apologies for astrology or being politically on the right. If I'm with a group of friends and someone makes an incredibly ignorant or bigoted comment, I'm going to call it out. If that makes you uncomfortable because you can't find the words to defend it, that's your problem. Keep your yap shut next time and your opinions to yourself. I never discuss either subject in mixed company unless someone else brings it up first and sometimes not even then.

This is a convoluted opinion based on personal prejudice. Sorry, but I have Jupiter clinging to the ASC, and I think that fair is fair. If you want to introduce politics or religion into astrology then I have a Frawley to introduce you to.

Lack of tolerance breeds lack of tolerance. It's just that simple. And those who proclaim to be so much further evolved in their spiritual journey should just know better than to start or participate in conversations like this.

In my experience, which is sorely limited and so not a basis of any kind of conclusion, it is mostly those "on the right" that want to believe in the free will debate, and mostly those "on the left" who are willing to open themselves to the idea that the stars can actually tell us what will happen.

Also, I kind of expected more tolerance from you, mdinaz...
 

Jesse Booth

Well-known member
tsmall:
I noticed that you have criticized both me and mdinaz for our political beliefs. While it would be, at least in my opinion, rude to defend mdinaz for him, as he is perfectly capable of doing that himself if he so desires, I will only be defending my own opinions.

Perhaps "entirely unique" was the wrong choice of words. Point is, unless you were born in the same hospital at the exact same time as another person, you have a birth chart that will not be duplicated again for a couple million years. And yes, astrology is influenced by astrology. Everything in this universe is part of an interconnected web of ebbing and flowing influences and currents in the collective conscience(I'm a Jung fan myself). There is a time and a place for everything, money and business included.

We can come to astrology thinking that we are all special snoflake indigo children, and please tell me what in my natal chart points to my being right about everything...me, me, me. One day, we wake up and realize that me isn't so special in the grand scheme of things, and the only thing that me can infulence is possibly the close world around me.

I suppose that's right. Unless that "me" is Josef Stalin, who executed almost 25,000,000 people during his rule over the USSR. That is how communism works: a classless society with no need for money, with the exception of the all-powerful dictator at the top with all the money. Personally, I think I'll stick with our "brutal and inhumane" capitalist system. Or whatever you liberals call it.

What I failed to properly convey is that I am a diehard libertarian because of my knowledge of astrology; everyone is an individual, and there has never been a system of government, religion, or morality that has been perfect for everyone. Therefore, it would be best for everyone if government were kept to a minimum, and people were allowed to choose for themselves what they wished to believe in and what code of ethics they followed, with the government playing just enough of a role to stop different religions and codes of ethics from being forced on others.

If something like money has an influence on astrolgy how can it be inherently evil? Which, money or astrology?

Everything is influenced by money. Including astrology. Including the Pauls. including...everything. So the real question is...is your personal astrology influenced by money? If not, what exactly can you do to help humanity with it?

I wish you wouldn't misinterperet my words, you know. I said "influence IN astrology. I was asking how money is evil, if it is something that astrology rules over. You might not think that, but then again I wasn't asking you specifically, just liberals in general. Everything has a time and a place in our world, and money is one of those things.

You asked if my personal astrology is influenced by money, and it would be wonderful if you would explain what exactly that question means. What exactly is "personal" astrology? Are you asking if I am corrupt? As I don't charge people for my inexperienced astrological opinion, I guess not? Or are you asking if my birth chart influences my money matters? Yes it does. I assume 100% of people with birth charts are influenced by birth charts, and as money is held under the influence of astrology, I assume everyone's birth charts show the influence of money on their lives.

You also asked what I can do for the world with my money. My honest answer? Nothing. Capitalism has brought more people out of poverty than charity ever could. If I have a product or skill to ply, than I can offer it to people who want or need my assistance in exchange for their money. I can then exchange that money for someone else's services, in order to meet my own wants and needs. When everyone offers their products or skills to each other, everyone will be able to meet their needs and as many of their wants as possible without interfering with the rights of others. The world as it is is nothing like that, because mankind has ignored the higher knowledge of metaphysics for too long. Everyone has a lesson they must learn, and a gift to give the world. As such, there is no reason you should throw away what you have earned on people who refuse to develope their own gift. If you want to actually help the world, you help others learn to be self-sufficient. As a student of astrology, I intend to learn how to advise people on how best to discover their own innate talents, so that they will not rely on the charity of others.
 

StillConfused

Well-known member
Not everyone is entirely unique. That, Luke, is the lesson you ned to learn. There is nothing new under the Sun...

We can come to astrology thinking that we are all special snoflake indigo children, and please tell me what in my natal chart points to my being right about everything...me, me, me. One day, we wake up and realize that me isn't so special in the grand scheme of things, and the only thing that me can infulence is possibly the close world around me.

He said nothing about needing to be special snowflake children, or about the necessity of having a far-reaching influence, to be unique.
 

StillConfused

Well-known member
Its a struggle that I've has for more than 40 years.

I finally just tell people, and let the chips fall.

I'm increasingly coming into the beauty of this post, with the help of Jesse's philosophy about being ourselves no more no less, and about a million other factors.

But basically what I want to post on here, is this.

In showing myself to others, I can only give what I have at any given moment, and let that be enough or not enough <3.

And any attempt to hide the totality of my authenic self, be it an "irrational" or "needy" feeling, or a "spacey" interest, etc., is a reflection of deep, unhealed shame I have for that aspect of myself, no matter how we might bend it/ justify the conservatism by saying it's the OTHERS that aren't ready to see me. This shame is so common, it's easy not to take it seriously and settle for a life of it. That's why people are private.

<3

Then perhaps "shame" is not the right word. "Shame" implies guilt, which implies a recognition that what you have done is wrong and needs to be corrected. I've done nothing wrong, so there is no guilt and thus no shame. If someone else has a problem with it, they can feel the shame for being close-minded, bigoted, ignorant, or whatever adjective fits.
 

StillConfused

Well-known member
I guess what I'm getting at, is to

CHALLENGE OURSELVES to wonder

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN,

if we exposed more of ourselves on a daily basis, including about our practices, and were willing to let the chips fall.

It's easy to feel comfortable about something we don't feel the obligation to share.

Do you accept yourself THAT deeply?
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
Dear Lord, save me.

Ok, it's late, but really? really? Who exactly in the political equation is saying that I as a woman hold no reproductive rights, and who exactly is saying that it is perfectly fine to discriminate against those who do not believe the way libertarians do? As in, who is it that wants to build discrimination back into the good ol' US of A?



This is a convoluted opinion based on personal prejudice. Sorry, but I have Jupiter clinging to the ASC, and I think that fair is fair. If you want to introduce politics or religion into astrology then I have a Frawley to introduce you to.

Lack of tolerance breeds lack of tolerance. It's just that simple. And those who proclaim to be so much further evolved in their spiritual journey should just know better than to start or participate in conversations like this.

In my experience, which is sorely limited and so not a basis of any kind of conclusion, it is mostly those "on the right" that want to believe in the free will debate, and mostly those "on the left" who are willing to open themselves to the idea that the stars can actually tell us what will happen.

Also, I kind of expected more tolerance from you, mdinaz...

You appear to be suffering under the affliction of which you place upon me. If you read my post, you'll notice that I said I never bring up the subject myself unless someone else does first. You are free to believe whatever you want, and I won't say a word about it unless you bring it up first in which case I am free to respond, or not. The idea that you appear to be offended or defensively righteous in response really makes my point.

As Jesse points out, unless you were born at the exact same moment in the exact same place as I was, NO ONE on earth possesses my birth chart. This by definition is "unique". To each his own. And to be clear, "tolerance" means accepting people's opinions and going your own way. It does not imply "agreement". This is also the core of Libertarianism. We can agree to disagree and I'm perfectly fine with that.

As for the money discussion, I'm not clear on how that came up in this but money, for me, is just a tool, like a hammer or a dinner plate. It is neither good nor evil, no more than the same hammer or dinner plate - only in how it is wielded. Astrologers have to eat too, and pay rent. Unfortunately for most of us it will only buy rice and a grass hut, so off to my day job I go.
 

Jesse Booth

Well-known member
Oh, and one more thing before we get back to the discussion of astrology shame. tsmall, you said:

Ok, it's late, but really? really? Who exactly in the political equation is saying that I as a woman hold no reproductive rights, and who exactly is saying that it is perfectly fine to discriminate against those who do not believe the way libertarians do? As in, who is it that wants to build discrimination back into the good ol' US of A?

I don't even know how to respond to something this ridiculous. Would you PLEASE try to find out what a libertarian is next time you want to debate our viewpoints? Because you certainly don't seem to know what libertarians are. As such, your argument is invalid.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
Although I do believe that the planets are physical representations of forces that do influence us.

While this may be true, and I may actually agree, since there is no way to show this in any context that can be duplicated with a significant .005 level probability for the general scientism(the religion of science as opposed to the study of science) oriented public, I prefer not to start arguments for which I have nothing to offer in a .005 defense.

it is much easier to point out the 1000's of years of human observation of signs correlated to human circumstances, than to start specifying planets making one do something when there is no known mechanism or even an understanding by the general public of the fact that planets might be the physical bodies of consciousness that are beyond comprehension.

This gets into esoteric studies that are out of the range of more than 1 out of every 10,000 people, in my estimation. I have never found anyone in real life who knows anything about this except those who specialize in its study, such as when I was a student at the Arcane School, in NYC, many years ago.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
I don't believe the planets act on us in a 3rd dimensional, physical way. They act on us from a higher sphere of consciousness and existence, of which quantum physics is barely beginning to scratch the surface. Time and space do not exist there, thus how big the planet or body or how far away it is physically is irrelevant. What exactly is the mechanism, I have no idea, nor does anyone else, I suspect. If anyone asks how can the gravitational pull of a planet billions of miles way affect our lives and I say that it doesn't. THAT really confuses people when they ask about astrology.
 
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