[HELP] Strange Mars

johan

Well-known member
No Tim,I disagree.

If the square was valid(but it is not),it would work out.Mars would go for the fight,the square would be seen,and not be totally covered up by the trine with Jupiter!

Reading what you wrote fifth,I would like to quote out of an astrologybook:the separating conjunction Moon/Saturn.Keep in mind that it is just an example,just to clarify the relation between these two planets;it is not a dogma,just an example (a little bit into extremes),to get a feeling of the relation between the two planets.It can work out in many ways(houseplacements,signs,aspects to other planets and more!)

The separating conjunction

By a separating conjunction the Moon is in front:the behaviour looks spontaneous,but it is more politeness.Such a person cuts off the primitive passive sympathy,the solidarity with other people,the instinctive-humane.One goes inside the ivory tower,there is a wall of glass.Saturn makes that one like to be alone,one isolates the Moon-emotional life to something that is pure individual,it is no one else's business.They cultivate their own soul,live with an aristocratic style.This type of person moves himself stately and worthy,it can already be seen in the cradle:it is beneith their dignity to cry for a new diper!They are serious,controlled,taciturn,affable and courteous.They can perfectly converse without showing themselves,real stoics.When they are in pain,offended or in big need:they never show it.
They have a strong binding to their mother(Moon),because Saturn lenghtens this binding.This binding does not hold confidentiality,but a same attitude of life,an understanding without words.
Often in their lives they have periods of weariness of life and melancholy,they see themselves as a lonely,tragic figure,high above the mass.


You wrote:"thanks for your wise answer and warm welcome,you are very kind",and that you "like to be alone in the corner most of the time";in my opinion examples of this aspect.

Perhaps with just any Saturn, but consider that this is Libra (relationships) modifying Saturn, so it is reasonable that relationships are somehow involved
Yes,relationships are involved,with the Moon/Saturn conjunction,not with Mars!

Not difficultising,but truthifying,

Johan

PS,
Fifth,I had a girlfriend who shared the applying square with Uranus,in different signs,Venus in H1,and Uranus in H5.Reading what you say about Venus,their are in my opinion similarities.If you like I will write down my thoughts in this thread how in my opinion this worked out for her,maybe you recognize something.

Be well fifth!
 

5th

Well-known member
wilsontc & johan

Maybe differing from the aspects is easy to become some illusions, ahaa? So many aspects to consider, so much illusion to be convinced?! But I do feel the strong force of Moon-Saturn, like johan quoted, as very forceful influence. Even if the Mars square accounts, this conjunction is still most powerful in my chart. Now I'm more cleared about Moon's Libran nature but not Scorpion.

Back to Mars, as its conjunction to ASC and Leo sign, it can be a part of my ASC... BUT to my experience, the ruler of ASC is much more forceful than its conjunctions, even the closest conjunction. My ASC ruler Sun is more important to me, working together with Mars force.

It seemed that my Mars nature is too far from square Moon-Saturn, and don't forget the powerful Pluto! Mars square to Pluto is known to be extremely violent and forceful, together with Mars square to Moon-Saturn, it would sound like KILLER JACK, isn't it? :lol: But fortunately I'm not that terrible~~ :mrgreen: With this deep doubt, I came here to make sure what it really is. And now I'm clear that these square doesn't work, at least not obviously! :idea: I don't know how these squares really work out will be, but I'm sure it's not my character according to astrology description!
 

franklin taylor

Well-known member
Hi 5th,
Welcome to the forum. "When in doubt count the degrees" is what the course work I have studied says. It certainly is that in this instance. A great speculation though is that you have got to have limits somewhere though. 8 degrees orb is allowed so 8 degrees either side of 1 degrees Scorpio is still considered a square The closer to 90 degrees the more powerful. My own Moon Square Saturn has both of these planets placed in Water Signs, and this square is as real as anything (and has been) in my life. My own Sun Square Neptune is almost perfectly square moreso than my Moon /Saturn aspect. I have only two pairs of planetary squares in my chart and I feel that I have been able to really discern their presence well. Whereas some one with as many as 10+ squares in their charts may not discern one challenge from another as reddily. Again, welcome 5th.
Take Care
Franklin
 

5th

Well-known member
johan

OK, it's a good idea. After all, fall Virgo Venus' best use is to recognize... In my experience, Venus square Uranus is pretty sad for relationship! Cause nothing lasts!

franklin taylor

Thanks for your double welcome! In your lion image it seems we share Sun sign, ahhaa?

My chart presents 10 square, what does it mean? Maybe the more square, the more challenge, the more challenge, the more trouble and achievement? You can see my MC in so many aspect...

A great speculation though is that you have got to have limits somewhere though.

It's to the point, franklin! What do you think these challeging aspect really mean? Maybe you can help me to recognize the limits? :roll:
 

5th

Well-known member
Maybe we can check the validity of Mars square in another way -- ASC. If the Mars square is valid, then the ASC square must be the same. They are in conjunction and share most of aspects.

ASC is for my image to the world. the Moon-Saturn-Pluto square may make me quite challeged by emotion, sorrow and instinct. Then I should be extremely sad and cannot get away from the hopeless shadow. But the opposite is ture! I can find myself happy and trusted, (though I still prefer alone, alone enough with my optimistic & positive nature -- Sagittarius Jupiter) creative and resourceful(Uranus). Maybe the Jupiter-Uranus trine works out more obviously. I can be peaceful with others, my friends enjoy turn to me to get away from their troubles or have a laugh for a short time, so from this point I'm out of the ASC square to Moon-Saturn-Pluto description again!
 

wilsontc

Staff member
About the way you use your energy

5th,

Regardless of what all this means "astrologically", as long as you are "...happy and trusted...optimistic & positive nature...creative and resourceful..." you are using your energy in a way that develops and grows your life. That's what a knowledge of astrology can help you do, but, however you get it in your life, the "peace of mind" you describe is a nice thing to have.

Mostly non-astrologically,

Tim
 

5th

Well-known member
wilsontc: Thanks for your kind words! I appreciate it!

Now I suddenly realize that challegeing aspects such as opposite and square differs a lot! Opposite aspect can be felt, seen and realized easily, but square aspect is like a iceberg, you can feel and see and realize it until you nearly crash it! When I look back the way I pass, I think some period proved this. Though nearly all Mars' aspect can cause temper, square aspect's temper is silent for me. Silent anger is also anger! Maybe that's why I'm attracted by the violent or cruel PC Games such as Silent Hill etc. (Maybe most PC games are somewhat cruel) It's pretty sad...

MAY subconscious violence get controlled all the time! AND I think that's easy for me, because once Mars-Moon pike my nervous, Mars-Saturn depress it, Mars-Pluto makes it an extreme pain, Mars-Jupiter ease that pain, Mars-Uranus push me to change and aware a new way.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
johan said:
Looks like I am standing alone here with the non-valid square Mars/Moon/Saturn her fifth! But reading what you write about it

You're not alone. Johan. Karen Hamaker thinks the same way and does not work with out-of-sign aspects.

And if the square is exactly formed by Mars, there must be lots of quarrals and fights in my relations, but it's not. I just feel not right and walk away

Yes,that would be the idea.Mars so close to the AC together with this conflicting aspect and if the separating aspect with the Moon was valid,you would notice in your reactions,your emotions(Moon).A square is a sharp,conflicting(and challenging)aspect.

Mars in Leo is ego orientated. But in the 12th house it's not outwardly apparent. It gives in to, or is under the influence of the stellium in Libra with the Moon. Moon is automatic reaction to the Libra ways, Mars inactive energy of the Leo ways.
IMO, that's the square conflict. Without finding the energy to change habits of the Moon, self- realisation of a Sun in Leo cannot occur. There will eventually be an identity crisis. Mars is the soldier that acts and works to carry out the Sun general's will.

Frisiangal,this elusiveness and reality would have given lots of conflicts,it would be have driven to the edge.I am much of a dreamer which also collides sometimes with reality,but there is no square between this planets in my natal chart
.

I have Saturn in Gemini 'square' Neptune in Libra. A conflict in thought !
I stopped dreaming when I eventually saw the dangling carrots of words for what they really were :wink:. I have always had difficulty with the concepts within orthodox religion and faith. I had no faith in anyone/anything, became my own councellor.( My Gemini elder sister actually called me an atheist last week!!).
Then astrology crossed my path (Uranus trine Neptune) and opened up a world of truth ( for me), of which the elusiveness cannot be tangibly grasped, explained or perceived. Sec. Progr. Saturn reached exact square, and sec. progr. Neptune turned direct ! I now have complete faith but don't ask me to explain in what or who :lol:

With much respect to your knowledge of astrology,I still disagree this counts as a square,and while it is an applying aspect,one would search the battle,Mars would have his say in this square!It would not be kept inside,unnoticable for others,no way!

I totally agree with you if Mars was in an open house where it could show its Leo force. But it's in a so-called 'hidden' house. IMO that makes all the difference.

I disagree with many astro. concepts myself, so understand how you feel ! My perception of astrology has been influenced by practical experience; as a Taurean Sun, that's been my way to learn. Your preception of astrology will be shown and experienced in yours. That's how it should be. IMO.

Again apologizing for being so defensive,but I think it is an essential point here! :)

No aplogies necessary. You are standing up for your own beliefs and expressing them; that isn't being defensive. :)

F.
 

johan

Well-known member
You're not alone. Johan. Karen Hamaker thinks the same way and does not work with out-of-sign aspects.

But on the forum I am alone(not with astrologers like Dobereiner and Hamaker).

Mars in Leo is ego orientated. But in the 12th house it's not outwardly apparent.
I totally agree with you if Mars was in an open house where it could show its Leo force. But it's in a so-called 'hidden' house. IMO that makes all the difference.


IMO planets are hidden,caught in the 12th house if they were higher up.But it is close to the AC(My Pluto is caught in H12,it is not close to the AC)
I think this energetic Mars will show in the person of fifth,but not squaring with Moon and Saturn because there is no square!Other aspects of that Mars with other planets will be seen.

I have Saturn in Gemini 'square' Neptune in Libra. A conflict in thought
I do not know your chart to see what other aspects can cause a conflict in thoughts,so I cannot comment on this.

No apologies necessary. You are standing up for your own beliefs and expressing them; that isn't being defensive.
Thanks for understanding Fries meisje :lol:

Fifth,I will come back to write about what I think of the applying square Venus/Uranus,but it can take a few days or weeks.Very busy right now and going on a holiday soon.
 

5th

Well-known member
Fifth,I will come back to write about what I think of the applying square Venus/Uranus,but it can take a few days or weeks.Very busy right now and going on a holiday soon.

Thanks, johan! I think your comment can be useful. I'll look forword to it.

After all, I also look forword to the invalidity of Mars square, honestly! :lol: But the turth is always first!

PS According to some Astrologers, the Mars is in the end of H12 and can be regarded as in H1. Then I think it's more like what I am, endless engergy and alway a DOER and soaring libido. :mrgreen:

And according to some Astrologer, there's another way to divide house--take the WHOLE LEO SIGN as H1, Virgo sign as H2, Libra H3, Sco H4, Sag H5. Then my Mars can be regarded as in H1 without doubt, and Saturn-Pluto-Moon in H3. Well, who knows?! And I think IF Moon is in H3, it can be more like myself, cause H3 Moon is somewhat like Moon in Gemini. My mother (Moon) is too far from staying at home (H4 Moon), she enjoy learning too much and love communicating too much!
 

Draco

Well-known member
Johan,

You're not alone. Johan. Karen Hamaker thinks the same way and does not work with out-of-sign aspects.

But on the forum I am alone.

No Johan, you are not alone. I also understand that trines are based on element, squares are based on modality, sextiles upon gender.

In the thread 'Please tell me what you see!', by Lissilu, I tell her:

For two planets to be in trine, and yes, here we go again (which refers to the argument taking place here), it is necessary for them to be in the same element. There are four types of trines, Fire, Earth, Air and Water trines. Similarly, there are four types of grand trines, but as you have Mars in Earth and Venus and the Moon in Water, then there cannot be considered to be a grand trine, because you can't have a grand trine which is two thirds Water and one part Earth. A grand trine must needs be within one element, such is the nature of harmony, which is what trines represent.

So you see, you are not alone Johan.

Draco :wink:
 

johan

Well-known member
Hi Draco,

Yes,what you wrote about the trine and the grand trine,I totally agree.
But I don't exactly understand modality and gender in this context.
(keep in mind that I am not originally English speaking).
But I assume,that you agree on my first reply in this thread,that squares,oppositions,sextiles etc. are working that way considering the various elements,and not only mathematical.In my opinion very important!
 

5th

Well-known member
Hi, all, I read something about Leo Mars, and find that if Mars was badly afflicted, heart disease may be assured, because Leo rules heart in man's body.
BUT in fact, my heart is very well. NO disease, AND very strong.
This may be a proof for the invalidity of Mars square? I don't know if it is right this time...

--from <The Message of the Stars>
Mars in Leo and well-aspected gives an active, industrious and honest nature, fearless and independent in all dealings with others, a keen sense of honor and responsibility, hence makes one eminently fitted to occupy a position of trust either in a public or private concern. These people are enthusiastic and energetic either in work or play, lovers of sport and a good time generally. They are very ardent in their admiration of the opposite sex and woo the object of their affections with an intensity that carries all before it, overrides all obstacles and brings the matter to a speedy consummation. These people never beat about the bush but say what they mean in a manner that is often extremely embarrassing in its directness. They are strong and forceful in their arguments either for or against that which they believe or disbelieve and therefore they not infrequently arouse opposition on the part of those who differ from them. They are very venturesome and often take a pride in risk either in the pursuit of pleasure or business. When Mars is afflicted in Leo it gives a fiery, violent temper and a liability to fever inflammatory diseases, palpitation of the heart, hallucinations, biliousness. There is also danger of inordinate affection, trouble in courtship, loss of children and loss through speculations. An afflicted Mars in Leo gives the same daring as when well-aspected but the danger of accident is greater because the person with the afflicted planets becomes foolhardy and reckless.
 

5th

Well-known member
In addition, the transiting Mars is in Cancer30degree now, and I can feel bad these days, sometimes upset, unhappy, and depressive. Tomorrow Mars will be in Leo and forms exact conjunction with my natal Mars. Maybe I can feel much better later, hahaa! OH, then the transiting Mars and transiting Saturn can form conjunction in H1, near my Sun.
Transiting Mars in Cancer does not show the ill things that Mars-Pluto-Saturn-Moon Square dooms to be. There were no fights, no crimes, no violent sex, but some quarrels and horror movies really. I was surprised why I could quarrel with my room mate this week, because I was definitely very friendly in normal days. My temper is very quiet and hardly wave up and down, if there was any. Ahaa, that's all real Mars square can do? OH!!! I was disappoited! Maybe this is another proof of the invalidity of natal Mars square?
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Element, Modality, and Gender

But I don't exactly understand modality and gender in this context.

Johan,

Element, Modality, and Gender refer to one of the many qualities of a sign.

Element: Fire (Aries, Leo, Sagittarius), Earth (Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn), Air (Gemini, Libra, Aquarius) and Water (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces)

Modality: Cardinal (Aries/Libra, Cancer/Capricorn), Fixed (Taurus/Scorpio, Leo/Aquarius), and Mutable (Gemini/Sagittarius, Virgo/Pisces)

Gender: Masculine (Aries/Libra, Gemini/Sagittarius, Leo/Aquarius) and Feminine (Taurus/Scorpio, Cancer/Capricorn, and Virgo/Pisces)

As the lists below illustrate, there is a definite pattern in assigning element, modality, and gender to a sign:

Element: There are four elements in the twelve signs of the zodiac; 12/4 = 3 signs of any particular element

Aries: Fire
Taurus: Earth
Gemini: Air
Cancer: Water
Leo: Fire
Virgo: Earth
Libra: Air
Scorpio: Water
Sagittarius: Fire
Capricorn: Earth
Aquarius: Air
Pisces: Water

Modality: There are three modalities in the twelve signs of the zodiac; 12/3 = 4 signs of any particular modality

Aries: Cardinal
Taurus: Fixed
Gemini: Mutable
Cancer: Cardinal
Leo: Fixed
Virgo: Mutable
Libra: Cardinal
Scorpio: Fixed
Sagittarius: Mutable
Capricorn: Cardinal
Aquarius: Fixed
Pisces: Mutable

Gender: There are two genders in the twelve signs of the zodiac; 12/2 = 6 signs of any particular gender

Aries: Masculine
Taurus: Feminine
Gemini: Masculine
Cancer: Feminine
Leo: Masculine
Virgo: Feminine
Libra: Masculine
Scorpio: Feminine
Sagittarius: Masculine
Capricorn: Feminine
Aquarius: Masculine
Pisces: Feminine

The combined list looks like this:

Aries: Fire, Cardinal, Masculine
Taurus: Earth, Fixed, Feminine
Gemini: Air, Mutable, Masculine
Cancer: Water, Cardinal, Feminine
Leo: Fire, Fixed, Masculine
Virgo: Earth, Mutable, Feminine
Libra: Air, Cardinal, Masculine
Scorpio: Water, Fixed, Feminine
Sagittarius: Fire, Mutable, Masculine
Capricorn: Earth, Cardinal, Feminine
Aquarius: Air, Fixed, Masculine
Pisces: Water, Mutable, Feminine

Now let us return to Draco's post and see how this all fits together:

No Johan, you are not alone. I also understand that trines are based on element, squares are based on modality, sextiles upon gender.

A trine aspect equals 120 degrees and is 1/3 of a circle (360 degrees/3 = 120 degrees). We have already established the pattern of elements: There are four elements in the twelve signs of the zodiac, which can be expressed as the fraction 4/12. This is may be reduced to 1/3.

A square aspect equals 90 degrees and is 1/4 of a circle (360 degrees/4 = 90 degrees). We have already established the pattern of modalities: There are three modalities in the twelve signs of the zodiac, which can be expressed as the fraction 3/12. This may be reduced to 1/4.

A sextile aspect equals 60 degrees and is 1/6 of a circle (360 degrees /6 = 60 degrees). We have already established the pattern of genders: There are two genders in the twelve signs of the zodiac, which can be expressed as the fraction 2/12. This may be reduced to 1/6.

I hope this guide helps you and others better understand the concept of element, modality, and gender ;)

Arian Maverick
 

Lorielle

Well-known member
Not sure that my Mars is strange, or just difficult. :) It is in the 5th house at 2 degrees Cancer. Trines my Sun and Neptune... It is the only planet that I have that is out of bounds.
 

johan

Well-known member
Thanks Beth,very clear!
It is quite annoying that I don'master the English language completely,thanks for being so clear!
To me for example the square is a square not only by mathematics,but by the difference of elements.

5th,No it is not that simple,having no heartproblems is not the validation of that.I will come back to say something about this later and your transits,but I don't have much time right now.
 

5th

Well-known member
???

OH, so strange! My last post disappeared!

??????

I have to type again...

Thank you johan, your remarks worth waiting. I can post my reply at weekend.
 

johan

Well-known member
Hi,fifth.
How are you?

How did the latest transits for you worked out?I am ashamed that I have not responded to your post earlier,while I made that promise:eek: But I haven't forgotten about it!:D Have you learned more about astrology yet?

Hope to hear from you soon,
Greetings Johan

If you respond I will fulfill my promise.
 

lilllybelle

Well-known member
Johan, I just read through this thread. I was really surprised that more people didn't agree with you. I've never gave much thought to squares that existed by degree but not by sign. I'm surprised that we are in the minority on this one. Well diferent strokes for diferent fokes. I mean if someone told me that they had a square with a 20 degree orb and they were aware of its prescence in their life, then I would say they have a square. I would never use such a wide orb in my chart, but I would honor it if someone else said that such a wide square was active in their life. L
 
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