What did Kepler say about quintiles?

Hi all,

We know that Kepler was the first to suggest the use of quintiles, biquintiles and sesqui-quadrate. I've only seen modern interpretations of these aspects and to be frank, they've been pretty vague and confusing. Does anyone know what Kepler actually wrote about these aspects e.g. a translation of what he wrote? From what little I know there seem to be big differences between Kepler's thoughts and modern interpretations. Kepler thought they were vitally important aspects but modern thought on these aspects (which I heard was Lilly's fault) is that they are only minor aspects. I would really like to see Kepler's original thoughts on the aspect. I know he based his opinion on their importance on the examination of hundreds of birth charts as well as examinations of planetary motions.

yoi,

i've had the same experience with quintiles, biquintiles and sesqui-quadrates. i don't use them, because the information i have found makes them seem unimportant.

when would the average astrologer even consider looking at a quintile, if they've even heard of it?

sometimes, i know i'm guilty of basically ignoring the sextiles and semi-squares in a chart.

if kepler thought these aspects were vitally important, he probably understood how they support the chart as a whole.

have you used these aspects in your interpretations?

Regardless of the popular opinion I choose to use them on occasion as the spirit moves me. Few are ever present. I also use septiles and the remainder of the 5th and 7th harmonic aspects. I think the strength of planets involved will guide you whether they play any role. Regardless they may indicate shades of a person's untapped potential in that people are so much more than we like to paint them into easily definable descriptions. My thought is that maybe at one time in life those aspects mean nothing just like any other, but then equally we've noticed times in our own lives when the influence of other things are quite noticeable.

I don't think we need to be published to say openly, "The aspect is there and the symbolic meaning is relevant and present in a life of an individual in the chart plain for anyone to see therefore it warrants discussion." :34:

I find it helpful to think of the aspects as they relate to the starting point of 0Aries, the I am. The semisquare is the 15Taurus, the Sun's home when Beltain was celebrated. It was a festival that celebrated the fertility of spring with a phallic symbol at it's heart. It was the promise of the coming manifestation of what Aries wills. The problem is, its only the promise, the seed lying within the dark earth, not yet germinated or having gone through gestation. It hasn't yet had the thought or found the Holy Word to bring forth his promised creation (sextile) and is at the midpoint of the full blown obstacle where he discovers certain things just don't work together in certain ways. The maidens dance around the phallic pole, dressing it with ribbons in hopes that they will be blessed with the right knowledge (Gemin) and fertile womb (Cancer) to bring forth Aries' fruit. If the winter was too severe, the winter wheat planted in fall may have been damaged, endangering the first harvest of the season. That is why the semisquare can often indicate health problems, the result of frustrated being (Aries).

The sesquisquare represents Lammas, the offering of the first fruits when the Sun transits 15Leo. This is the time when the first fruits have a chance to ripen if they are fortunate and blessed enough to have enough water during the time of the scorching Sun, and the wheat wintered over well. If there were severe freezes with little snow cover to protect or it has been a drought, the time of greatest harvest is in danger. So the maidens weave dolls out of the winter wheat that rippened as offering to appease the gods in hopes that the greater harvest will be abundant enough to get them through another winter. Here the seeds for the 6th house health problems can begin. At the trine we are given an opportunity to will what we desire. If we are lacking any of the details necessary for love and true pleasure, if we fail to re-create, the sesquisquare will take its toll. If the frustration continues without finding the magic cure we continue on the the festival of Samhain where we give offerings to the dead hoping within that death there is a fertile germ cell to bring new life, to return or replace what was missing or lost, perhaps seeing what was needed for that bountiful harvest. Finally, in midwinter at Imbolc, after Persephone has been transformed by Hades we celebrate the impregnated seed, deep within the earth, invoking its journey to the upperworld to fulfill the promise of new life.

Kepler followed the harmonics of music. He said"

The quintile is equivalent to an interval of a major third (4:5), ex: musical notes C & E. This is beautiful harmony such as the soprano and alto duet. This would be 0Aries singing with 12 Gemini and would provide the talent (information) necessary to manifest in Taurus or give pleasure and recreation in Leo.

The biquintile to a major sixth (3:5), ex: C & A. The biquintile sounds quite harmonious and would be followed beautifully by the quintile. I feels just like the number, 144, 12x12, a full gross. All you need to meet the requirements for the best price so you can resell it for a profit. They say its like a double talent. Perhaps it is a compound talent or the ability to synthesize two differnt skills into something unique. Perhaps it is the ability to multiply the value enough so that you sill have something left over to repeat the process again. When I hear the major 6th my imagination simply flows into a major 5th (C & G)

Both 72 and 144 reduce to a 9, the last single digit, the number of the Sun. The amazing thing about the number 9 is that no matter how much you multiply it, it always reduces to 9, what you started with remains constant. I put some quarters in a machine once to kill time while my husband gambled at a casino for the first time. Unfortunately he lost but for a $3 investment of the 36 (I think) we began with, I won $444 which kept him playing over 2 hours. 444-3=441=9, again a multiple of 9 reducing to what it started with. And we went home with the same amount we started with. I have Pluto at the 144th degree, that is the reverse of 441. Hmmm

The sesquiquadrate to a minor sixth (5:8), ex: C & A flat. When I hear those notes together, I want to drop the A flat down to G in order to resolve the tension. To hear those notes alone leaves me feeling incomplete, dissatisfied, like I over reached, almost made it but what I wanted wasn't possible.

My ex husband has his Moon with a degree of here. The above feelings were realized at the end of our 28 years together. I admitted defeat and allowed divorce into my vocabulary.

Aparantly these are the only 3 that Kepler would use. Lilly added the semisextile, etc.

Here are a couple articles about Kepler.
[SIZE=-1]www.skyscript.co.uk/kepler2.html
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.skyscript.co.uk/kepler.html[/SIZE]

Aquarian Essence,

That is very ingenious and seems quite original. Where within you do your views originate? Do you strive to maintain left-right hemisphere balance between thoughts regularly or does it come easily? Thanks for sharing.

Thank you, my pleasure. I have a hard time understanding complicated or abstract ideas unless I put them into simple, everyday settings. It can't be original since all that I wrote of has already been known. I guess I am just doing my descendant, Aquarius. He is very good at taking the work of others and blending it together. Perhaps, if I do blend right-left hemispheres it is due to having 4/5 of my major energy in the right hemisphere of my chart. Having that imbalance, naturally seeks the other side while interacting with the rest of the world, even if not perfectly. Trying to find the words brings new discoveries. I just realized, as I write this that the 1/5 in my left hemisphere, Moon and Mars, would be the equivelant of the quintile. I have had an especially hard time with the semisquare manifestation. So my own experience, striving to find the magic words of creation or reason why something other than intended was manifest, produces what I write.

Also, judging by all my failures, I'd say I'm not allowed to do anything new, only continue where I left off. Perhaps the lesson of my Moon void of course? I'm still trying to figure out where I left off. Was it separating the night from day or planting man in the garden of Eden.

Love & Light
Connie

I have been enjoying the Aquarianessence expression in other areas, and I must say this no exception.

My interest is piqued due to Venus bQ Jupiter and Neptune bQ Jupiter, with Venus Q Neptune. This triangle is then activated by the ascendent where Jupiter sits in close orb. It has been an ongoing journey to understand and I look to my own life as much or more than is written. I am therefore searching for a surprising talent. It may already exist, just finding the right opportunity for expression.

If you have any insights, I would welcome them warmly.

Love & Light
Flea

You're so sweet, flea. And to think I tried to eradicate those little buggers.

Venus, Jupiter and Neptune are a wonderfully, beautiful, creative trio to begin with, even more so with the quintile dance. The High Priestess comes to mind. Not the traditional minister but the priestess that brings God into the group forum as well and gracefully as into the lovers bed. I see here both the husband and wife with the angels watching over, celebrating the magical union, making love with them, then that love filling a canvas with swirling, glistening pastels. The spiritual symbolism of the sexual union between man and the Priestess or Vestal Virgin is the man seeking God, entering the dark place where God receives him through Venus as his Priestess who in turn is the vessel that receives God through man. Where and how you express this best would be shown by the houses and signs.

I don't see a link to your chart here. I'm wondering what kind of flower would you see if you turned each of them into a flower petal. What would you see manifest at the center where the pistals and stamens are? I think I'm seeing the central petals of the Viola tricolor. Those three petals embrase and protect the pistals and stames while also being the entrance to the spur that contains its nectur. The taste of the nectar is sweet. Common names for this hardy little perennial are Johnny Jump up, Johnny kiss me over the garden gate, Mount Helen, Heartsease. The tri-color is Purple, yellow and white. Yes, Violas are used as a medicine. The Pansy is a larger cousin. When they have been pollinated they nod their head downward bringing their petals in to protect the growing seeds from rain while they ripen. Then when gestation is done they lift their head towards the sky to disperse their seed.:29: When they have their heads bowed the spur is especially conspicuous and reminds me of the female clitorus more prominant because it is aroused.

This post is reminding me I have an unfinished project awaiting entitled "Flower Fabels and Herbal Lore", an empty page on my site. The Viola will be the first entry, for obvious reasons. An interesting thing about Violas is that they never come through true to seed. This means that the child is never like the parent in color or markings. The one exception is "Bowels Black".

I think we should call this configuration the Holy Trinity, Male, Female, God in one. The self existant, eternal One.:sunny:

Sunch beautiful words. I am not sure what they mean to me personally yet. I like the idea of the petals, maybe I will paint them.

My birth data 10 dec 1965 Caerleon UK 4.21pm . Incidentally this name of the town means Lion Castle, it was an old Roman citadel and who knows before that maybe the court of Arthur.

Jup 1st house gem, is in detriment but mec i sag indetriment deposits.
Venus is 9th house aquarius, and Neptune is 6th house Scorpio.

It is quite ungrounded so I think that may make it a little difficult to understand in material terms. I think it is definitely reflected in my art and also how my art connects to other disparate areas of my life.

The male/female exchange is reminding me of the earlier post by Soul Friend. It gives a slightly different take on how they can be integrated possibly.

Thanks again, you keep me thinking and expressing,.

Love & Light
Flea

Is that Wales, 5Sco45 rising? What a beautiful history to be born with. Yes, if this chart is correct then Venus ruling 12, Jupiter and Neptune ruling 5, art is a perfect way to express this. Do you paint? Consider a huge enlarged version of a certain flower, look closely at them. It could be very erotic.

My rising is 24gemini57, so venus still rules 12th but mercury rules 5th, and mars/pluto ruling 6th. Yes I paint a lot have done since I was a little kid. reminds me of the photographer Maplethorpe who photgraphed flowers in an erotic manner. Some of the pictures are incredibly beautiful and yes the erotic played in an extroverted manner. Neptune and Jupiter rule my 11th house, connection to humanity. At present I have been painting seed like pods on abstract fields of colour. These entities are rather female in essence.

The picutre of eroticism is making me laugh at the moment, it is being played out in my mind rather than projecting my animus onto others. Although I am conscious of the integration of the male/female polarity. I am aware of defining the differences and commonalities, on maybe an archetypal base rather than physically embodied in gender if that makes sense.

Hope this adds to the picture.

Love & Light
Flea

LOL, yes I see what you are saying. For a nice symbolic male flower, look at Jack in the pulpit or Moonkshood. I've never been able to do abstract work. I wish I could. I get so detailed and realistic, it's sometimes hard to tell my painting from a photo. I even put the langio (sp) on the painting I did of one of my babies. I haven't painted for years though, nerve issues now.

11th is also taking what other's have done and developing it further, taking it to the next step. That's the genius quality when the light goes off while assesing other's work and creates the integration of both sides of the Leo/Aq axis.

AE,

I am still a little mystified as to why you see such an erotic pattern in the quintile triangle. Is it the combination of venus and its higher vibration of neptune, acting on the benevolent generosity of jupiter. So the female acting on and expressed by and through the male?? Have I got that right?

I suppose I had seen it as a more creative painting type thing. Houses 1 6 and 8 are a strange mixture which is why you get the creative. Dissimilar acting harmoniously. Potent combination.

Love & Light
Flea

Yes, it is defininately creative art with those planets involved. I say errotic because of Venus' interaction with Mars through partnership ruling opposite Aries and Scorpio, while lying next to Mars at the same time in both her ruling positions. Also, picture the 5th harmonic pattern starting at the natural beginning.

0Aries
12Gemini
24Leo
6Scorpio
18Capricorn

Here we have the self having control over his incoming and outgoing communications, using that and his hands as tools to express Leo and Scorpio together. The idea of sensual or erotic art came to me through seeing the flower petals through your planets, but the viola has 5 petals in all and the full quintile pattern would form all 5. There are many other 5 petaled flowers. The inner 3 look to me like they are protecting and acting as the portal to the holy of holies, the inner sanctuary, Aries, Leo and Scorpio, with Gemini and Capricorn as the tools.

I just realized also, 72 adds to a nine, the number that, no matter how many times you multiple or expand it, it always reduces to 9, what you started with, that can be reinvested. It's only factor is a prime number, 3, that can only be divided by one and itself.

I just looked in my Hebrew concordance to see where the number 72 shows up in Scriptures. I find lots of secrets revealed there. It doesn't seem to appear as a number by itself, although I see 77 and others in the seventies. I do find it as the last two digits of a larger number. One place is in numbering the clan of Shephatiah (Yah has judged), the first in the list found in both Ezra and Nehamiah. The 2nd is with the second on the list, the clan of Arah (really Arach, wayfarrer, traveler). I do see the 5th part as being quite prominant so I'll have to research this and share when I get it done. My first glance looks quite interesting.

I am familair with 24 Sag so that degree is very important also.

AE,

Hmmmm nearly there, how do you get to the venus mars partnership through Aries and Scorpio, oh got it, houses 1 and 8 doh! I have to remember a long time to get back to eroticism in my life. I am thinking Pluto in 5th can denote feast or famine in issues of that house.

I was thinking about the 72, my birth number is 25/7. The 5 is related to the
5th harmonic. I like the pattern you describe of the triangle being within the infered pattern of 5. I have always thought that other points for me are 15 deg Aries and 10deg Virgo as being important trigger points for me in transits. Aries and Virgo are the outer leaves. Aries is intercepted and Virgo houses my pluto/uranus conj. So they are important natally.

Agree about the nine, 72 is a composite number of completion the end of a cycle, ready to begin again.

Sag moon, are you thinking about my descendent at 24 Sag, denoting partner, and the proximity to the galactic centre?? I suppose it is activated by Jupiter being on my ascendent, which again follows the line of thought of partnership, and Jupiter being ruler of descendent.

Deeper down the rabbit hole me thinks. Tres interesting though all the same.

Oo, had a thought, I posted a picture I did thinking about the triangle on another thread about quintiles, I dont know how to post the link though. It might be of interest.

Love & Light
Flea

You always take both points into consideration. 24 Sag I have done much research to.

What kind of stuff did your research bring up Sag Moon?

L&L Flea

It is a fateful degree concerning artist most of whom had abuse problems.

Beethoven,Hendrix,Joplin,GIA(the nodel),Anthony Hopkins,Van Gogh and others all had abuse problems and all were creative.

I have my chart ruler ,the moon, at this degree.

Re: Quintile: the fifth part

In looking at the oldest writing I have, the Hebrew old testament, I see under the word fifth, that the creatures of the waters and air were created on the 5th day, and Jacob's 5th of 12 sons was Isachar, meaning reward. He is the son representing the tribe of Leo. His mother was the one Jacob really didn't want to marry, the sister of the one he loved. His youngest son, Joseph, (meaning he shall add or augment) corresponding to the sign of Pisces, became a very important assistant to the Pharaoah. He interpreted the Pharoah's dream (Pisces) as a warning that 7 years of feast would be followed by 7 years of famine. He said in Genesis 41:34 that Pharaoah should take a fifth of the harvest during those 7 years of feast to maintain them during the 7 years of famine. He became 2nd in power under Pharaoah.

In Leviticus 5:16 the instructions for atonement for unintentional sins are written. He is to bring a perfect ram of the proper value in silver according to the sanctuary shekel which is about 2/5 of an ounce (about 11.5 grams). He is to add a fifth of the value to that and give it to the priest. In this way he has made full expiation for his unintentional wrongdoing, what he has failed to do "in regard to the holy things". Intentional deceptions against a person are to be atoned for with the full amount plus 1/5 also, along with the ram for the priest to offer as a guilt offering. Later in Lev. 27 if someone wants to redeem or buy back something that has been dedicated to the Lord as Holy, they must add a fifth to the value and it will be returned to him.

So it appears that there is a possiblity we are given credit for these talents that are then given to the world, our priest, to atone for our mistakes. This doesn't cover big crimes like murder or armed robbery but does cover all that is unintentional and more minor. The fifth would also be our stored blessings to get us through the famine years of our life. That makes sense.

I have Venus in Libra quintile Asc. Venus rules my boss. I also have Saturn quintile Pluto. Civil rights fought on my behalf for an unlawful dismissal when I made a sexual harassment complaint. My husband was fired also. Saturn is the natural boss and rules my 6th and 7th. We were both awarded what amounted to 2/5 year of lost wages and the boss didn't take the part of our profit sharing and matching funds that he could have since we weren't fully vested. We could have lost 40% which is 2/5. It came when our famine was the greatest. One of the wrongs listed against another person was taking what belongs to another or swearing falsly. The boss not only took our income he slandered us to potential employers because of our Civil Rights complaint. This money came when Saturn was transiting Joseph's natural house, the 12th and square my Venus. Pluto was in the house of rewards, the 5th, trine natal Pluto and inconjunct Saturn.