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I shared links to show what actually is the state of things based on FACTS. - why don’t you read for yourself - what the studies and data gathered are “implying”. If you have links that “imply” the contrary, kindly share.

katydid said:

Are you implying that the cops just arrest blacks more often for no reason?

That there really isn't more crime in the inner city, the cops just go there and arrest black people because of racism?

911 gets calls from crime scenes and officers are dispatched where the crimes are occurring. The gangs in low income areas are very violent and commit a lot of crimes. Armed robberies, car jackings, rapes, etc.

The racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment come from the high crime rate, not from racism by cops.

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Dirius said:

Thats called "virtue signaling"

noun
noun: virtue signaling

the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

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No problem.

As opposed to the insensitivity signaling, callousness signaling, and blatantly uninformed signaling I've been seeing among *some* people on this thread.

Dirius said:

I know. But I'm not sure if it is that complicated.

Slavery existed in the world for thousands of years. Xenophobia does exist.

But in modern society? mostly isolated cases. And slavery ended, thanks mostly to ... white people.

And I think we are now going rampart on what "racism" actually is. Lot of things are considered "racist" now, which were not 10 years ago.

We also can't expect everyone to immediatly adapt, just because young people want them to.


edit: I'm trying to stay on-topic, although its difficult because each subject is very related.

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Slavery is off-topic.

Black Lives Matter acknowledges the legacy of slavery. But you seem to miss the point that it is more particularly about the recent history of police brutality against Black Americans. I truly believe most police officers are good and ethical people, but some either are not, or have insufficient training to use more restraint when their lives are not in danger. Then *some* police unions back up their rogue officers even when justice is abridged.

Probably you have heard about "the talk" that Black fathers have with their sons about how to behave when they mind their own business and are totally law-abiding, yet are stopped by the police.

You know about Breonna Taylor's death. https://www.vox.com/2020/5/13/21257...ille-shooting-ahmaud-arbery-justiceforbreonna

Because the problem is not one-off, but more systemic.

Black Lives Matter also reflects a justice system that inadequately protects the rights of people of color.

As the saying goes, some people know what time of day it is, and some people don't.

Please read more widely, starting with the links I've posted for you.

Dirius said:

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, or the labour.

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Are you aware of how many African American men have been incarcerated-- on Death Row-- for crimes they didn't commit?

We cannot naively assume that the "justice" system treated all accused persons equally.

This report may be a little advanced for *some* right-wingers, but it gets at the systemic ethnic discrimination in the justice system.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

In a nutshell, the hard data show that Black men are more likely to be incarcerated and serve heavier sentences than white men for the identical crime.

Probably you see something similar for visible minorities in Argentina.

katydid said:

Are you implying that the cops just arrest blacks more often for no reason?

That there really isn't more crime in the inner city, the cops just go there and arrest black people because of racism?

911 gets calls from crime scenes and officers are dispatched where the crimes are occurring. The gangs in low income areas are very violent and commit a lot of crimes. Armed robberies, car jackings, rapes, etc.

The racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment come from the high crime rate, not from racism by cops.

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Wakey, wakey.

Surely you informed yourself about police in Ferguson, Missouri differentially issuing tickets to Black drivers, a virtual form of harassment. The poor could not afford to pay them. A Black man driving a nice car can be routinely stopped under suspicion that he must have stolen it. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/06/us/black-drivers-traffic-stops.html

Funny how a white man who is a friend of President Trump's (Roger Stone) just had his sentence commuted, while poor visible minority men languish in jail, often awaiting trial, because the courts are too clogged to deliver on the promise that "justice delayed is justice denied" when they cannot afford bail. Funny how serial sexual predator Jeffrey Epstein was given a lavish house arrest sentence, until he struck again.

"Defund the police" doesn't mean abolish police departments. It does mean allocating more funding to social services, education, mental health support, and so on in under-served communities.

It's OK to be a conservative but it's important to be a well-read informed conservative.

waybread said:

Are you aware of how many African American men have been incarcerated-- on Death Row-- for crimes they didn't commit?

We cannot naively assume that the "justice" system treated all accused persons equally.

This report may be a little advanced for *some* right-wingers, but it gets at the systemic ethnic discrimination in the justice system.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

In a nutshell, the hard data show that Black men are more likely to be incarcerated and serve heavier sentences than white men for the identical crime.

Probably you see something similar for visible minorities in Argentina.

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Yes, less than 1% of them are wrongfully convicted. Which is an extremely low number. It is still an important matter, but clearly the margin of error is very low, with 99% of convictions being lawful.

Let me explain in simple terms for a leftists:

99 is a bigger number than 1. In fact it is ninety-nine times bigger. Imagine that?

Obviously wronguful convictions are a problem, in fact they are the reason I am not in favour of the death pentalty. But in your country, the number remains extremely low.

Also the system doesn't seem biased against black people, it seems biased against poor people. Obviously rich people can afford better representation with much better resources. So the attempt to mix this into the "oh racism racism!" just doesn't work my dear.

waybread said:

Slavery is off-topic.

Black Lives Matter acknowledges the legacy of slavery. But you seem to miss the point that it is more particularly about the recent history of police brutality against Black Americans. I truly believe most police officers are good and ethical people, but some either are not, or have insufficient training to use more restraint when their lives are not in danger. Then *some* police unions back up their rogue officers even when justice is abridged.

Probably you have heard about "the talk" that Black fathers have with their sons about how to behave when they mind their own business and are totally law-abiding, yet are stopped by the police.

You know about Breonna Taylor's death. https://www.vox.com/2020/5/13/21257...ille-shooting-ahmaud-arbery-justiceforbreonna

Because the problem is not one-off, but more systemic.

Black Lives Matter also reflects a justice system that inadequately protects the rights of people of color.

As the saying goes, some people know what time of day it is, and some people don't.

Please read more widely, starting with the links I've posted for you.

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The example in your link shows a similar situation to George Floyd's: a police officer with a history of missconduct, who was already under investigation. Most of this cases come down to the same pattern, in which a person who should have been removed from law-enforcement, was not.

Are police corrupt? Yes of course they are, like any government agency. So its up to you to vote for apropiate leadership that will correctly train and clean-up the police.

But you are only pointing out to examples in which black people were victims. It is easy to make your point if you only point to the cases in which a black person is the victim. Granted the media doesn't make that much a fuzz for a white person getting killed.

52% of the people who have lethal confrontations with the police are white. What does this have to do with race then?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/


You are cherry-picking the cases you use as an example, to make a point.

Dirius said:

The example in your link shows a similar situation to George Floyd's: a police officer with a history of missconduct, who was already under investigation. Most of this cases come down to the same pattern, in which a person who should have been removed from law-enforcement, was not.

Are police corrupt? Yes of course they are, like any government agency. So its up to you to vote for apropiate leadership that will correctly train and clean-up the police.

But you are only pointing out to examples in which black people were victims. It is easy to make your point if you only point to the cases in which a black person is the victim. Granted the media doesn't make that much a fuzz for a white person getting killed.

52% of the people who have lethal confrontations with the police are white. What does this have to do with race then?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/


You are cherry-picking the cases you use as an example, to make a point.

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It has to do with population percentage. The 52% is about 10 percentage points lower than the country being about 62% white.

Whereas, the approximately 33% of lethal confrontations for black people is about 20% higher than the 13% proportion of the country which is black.

That's a 30 percentage-point spread, given the population percentages. All things being equal, the lethal confrontations for black people should be at around 13%, and for white people, around 63%.

Just as a disproportionate number of black women opt for abortions given their population percentage.

david starling said:

It has to do with population percentage. The 52% is about 10 percentage points lower than the country being about 62% white.

Whereas, the approximately 33% of lethal confrontations for black people is about 20% higher than the 13% proportion of the country which is black.

That's a 30 percentage-point spread, given the population percentages. All things being equal, the lethal confrontations for black people should be at around 13%, and for white people, around 63%.

Just as a disproportionate number of black women opt for abortions given their population percentage.

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The statistics you and waybread are quoting aren't significant because what you need to take into account is the percentage of the criminal population.

Whether this is disproportionate to the actual population size of a given ethnicity is totally irrelevant.

African-americans commit more crimes than white people. Thus why they have a higher number of lethal confrontation with the police in proportion to their own population size.

And yet the number of lethal encounters is higher for white people, despite the fact they commit less crimes as a group.

Thus disproving the idea that racism is the motivator for these killing.

Dirius said:

The statistics you and waybread are quoting aren't significant because what you need to take into account is the percentage of the criminal population.

Whether this is disproportionate to the actual population size of a given ethnicity is totally irrelevant.

African-americans commit more crimes than white people. Thus why they have a higher number of lethal confrontation with the police in proportion to their own population size.

And yet the number of lethal encounters is higher for white people, despite the fact they commit less crimes as a group.

Thus disproving the idea that racism is the motivator for these killing.

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Simply put, black males are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police on average, than white males.

Now, saying that African-American men "commit more crimes" is a faulty comparison, because they are more targeted by the police, whereas white men are more beneath police radar and can get away with it without getting caught.

It's called "racial profiling".

david starling said:

The "War on Drugs" is a war on people most likely to be arrested and victimized by bad cops. The suburbs are safe-zones for illegal drug use, but in the inner cities, drug users are hunted like animals and treated like dirt. The cops go there to make their "quota" for arrests.

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I am not talking about drug arrests. I am talking about armed robberies, carjacking and shootings. Those things happen in the low income communities at a much higher rate.

The cops are not going there for their quotas. They are answering 911 calls and seeing crimes as they happen. Look at the FBI stats. 13% of the population committing 52% of the homicides.

david starling said:

Simply put, black males are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police on average, than white males.

Now, saying that African-American men "commit more crimes" is a faulty comparison, because they are more targeted by the police, whereas white men are more beneath police radar and can get away with it without getting caught.

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That is just not true. Are you telling me that white neighbourhoods are full of white men doing carjackings and armed robberies and driveway shootings, but no one is reporting it so they don't get reported or caught?

NO, 911 tells the story. There is more violent crime in the low income neighborhood. You know it and I know it. It is not about the police making it happen by being there more. It is about police RESPONDING to the calls for help.

There were 82 people shot in Chicago last weekend. It was in the black neighbourhoods. Don't try and tell me there were 83 people shot in the suburbs but no one reported it.

The only reason I am emphasising this is because BLM is being dishonest when they claim the police are harassing them.

The police go where they are called. They don't want to hang out in dangerous areas. They go where they are dispatched.

"Overall, in 2019, 24 percent of all police killings were of black Americans when just 13 percent of the U.S. population is black – an 11-point discrepancy. Mapping Police Violence also showed that 99 percent of all officers involved in all police killings had no criminal charges pressed against them."

https://www.statista.com/chart/21872...ack-americans/

katydid said:

That is just not true. Are you telling me that white neighbourhoods are full of white men doing carjackings and armed robberies and driveway shootings, but no one is reporting it so they don't get reported or caught?

NO, 911 tells the story. There is more violent crime in the low income neighborhood. You know it and I know it. It is not about the police making it happen by being there more. It is about police RESPONDING to the calls for help.

There were 82 people shot in Chicago last weekend. It was in the black neighbourhoods. Don't try and tell me there were 83 people shot in the suburbs but no one reported it.

The only reason I am emphasising this is because BLM is being dishonest when they claim the police are harassing them.

The police go where they are called. They don't want to hang out in dangerous areas. They go where they are dispatched.

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The police aren't like firemen, just waiting to be "dispatched". They cruise around in assigned areas, looking for suspicious activity. Not many police cruising the suburbs.

African Americans constitute roughly 13% of the US population, but 47% of individual exonerations (i. e., shown to have been wrongfully convicted) and the majority of defendants who were framed in major police scandals.

This according to a major study of US exponerations at UC Irvine. It goes into considerable detail.

http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race_and_Wrongful_Convictions.pdf

According to this study at the Michigan State University law school, African Americans were 50% more likely to be wrongfully convicted of murder than members of other ethnicities in the US. They were also likely to be incarcerated longer before exoneration.

https://research.msu.edu/innocent-african-americans-more-likely-to-be-wrongfully-convicted/

I'll make this really simple. It's hard to carry on a sensible conversation with people who are poorly informed but who refuse to do their homework.

If 52% of victims of lethal confrontations with police are white, and African Americans constitute 13% of the population in the US (with visible minorities collectively totaling about 1/3 of the US population , then visible minorities account for 48% of lethal confrontations, significantly higher than their fair share of the population.

Police officers are not elected officials. (Some law enforcement superior officers are, it depends on the jurisdiction.) I am all for the rights of working people to unionize. Sometimes police unions cover for rogue officers in ways that harm public safety.

I can't help it.

13% looks like Sangers project worked

Fatherless homes

First step act

The term "the criminal population" is preposterous.

Somehow white collar crime by white people is neglected, with racialized stereotypes perpetuated by right-wingers. Somehow the high level of exoneration of African Americans for crimes they didn't commit fails to register with the right-wingers. Somehow the frequency with which minorities are shot and killed while minding their own business doesn't enter into right-wing thinking.

But I suppose it's easy to insist on one's personal views when one refuses to read up on the evidence.

waybread said:

The term "the criminal population" is preposterous.

Somehow white collar crime by white people is neglected, with racialized stereotypes perpetuated by right-wingers. Somehow the high level of exoneration of African Americans for crimes they didn't commit fails to register with the right-wingers. Somehow the frequency with which minorities are shot and killed while minding their own business doesn't enter into right-wing thinking.

But I suppose it's easy to insist on one's personal views when one refuses to read up on the evidence.

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There's another factor: Lower income people can't afford to hire high-powered defense attorneys like the more affluent. They're also more often abused into confessions, and forced to take plea bargains to avoid longer sentences, even when they are innocent.