Sadist and masochist

Abby83

Abby83

Well-known member
So I’d like to look at astrology in regards to sadism and masochism.

I was a masochist until I worked on my subconscious mind with the help of a psychotherapist. The patterns I fell into were dangerous. I am Pluto in libra 12th house with sun and Saturn there too. I’ve always been strongly attracted to sadists before I even knew that they were. But I never had sex with them. They were the types of guys who enjoyed hurting me emotionally or through social humiliation to boost their ego and then they’d jack off about it later.

As for the sadist, I’m wondering if they would have a prominent 1st house with strong Pluto or Aries? The thing I find interesting about the sadist is that he takes pleasure in hurting the woman. He receives sexual gratification when he can lower her. The masochist loves the man being dominant but also is stimulated by pain. I know this sounds silly, but I’m confused whether this is healthy. Of course abuse is not ok. Part of me sees that both of them are attracted to each other. I see the masochist enjoy submitting and sacrifing themselves. But I somehow feel the sadist would take things too far.

I’d love to hear other ppls experience on this. I won’t be too shocked or disturbed by stories so please feel free to express what you know about the matter. Both astrological and personal experiences.
 
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Goldi

Member
Healthy expression of dark energy requires physical and emotional safety and openness.

What you describe in your own life sounds unaware and not open, and hence not safe or healthy for you at the time.

But if you were to openly create a situation for you to be humiliated in a way that brings you mutual pleasure and is safe for both of you, why would it not be healthy?

There are plenty of activities that are humiliating, painful and stimulating without being risky or harmful. For example, if you were to kiss his feet and receive a good spanking, you would get the feeling of being in the lower position, of being submissive and stimulated with pain, but there is nothing abusive about this and it is much healthier than him humiliating you socially for his gratification.

As for me, I know my concept of love includes pain because of my childhood. After a lot of healing work, it is not compulsive but it is part of my make up. I am by the way very wary of actual bad guys and their energy puts me off but I love safe guys with a healthy heart and ego who do express a darker sexual energy. I also see the patterns in my stars. I have Lilith in tight conjunction to Persephone in Scorpio in my 8th and Pluto conjunct Juno in my 7th.

Astrologically, to find a man who expresses sadistic passions in a healthy way; I would look for a healthy ego, so good things happening in the first house and with the sun and I'd also look for a well aspected moon. Then I'd look for something nice to be going on with Pluto, the 8th house and maybe something in Scorpio. Finally some evidence of good self control, I'm not sure how to see that in a chart.
 
Abby83

Abby83

Well-known member
Thanks for your reply. It has given me a bit to think about.

Although I don’t know how a healthy ego and well placed sun and moon would make someone a good sadist. To me, being emotionally safe is not a sadist.

I do like your thoughts about Scorpio. I have well aspected Pluto in 12th house so that emphasises a little liking toward this stuff. But more like love hate.
 
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Goldi

Member
Well, do you want to be hurt or harmed?

If you want healthy, there are safe, sane and consentual way to get an itch scratched, but if you want to be emotionally unsafe, I don't see that as healthy.
 
Flapjacks

Flapjacks

Well-known member
I have a hard time judging different kinds of relationships to determine what is objectively healthy or unhealthy, so I am not going to try with your situation. I tend to have respect (even if I am uncomfortable or saddened) for people that have an awareness of what they are doing and when they fully understand the consequences. To go to an extreme, martyrs are saints but they are not healthy by any DSM evaluation.

My placements include a lot of power dynamics with Pluto square Sun/Moon/Mercury, Mars and Neptune in the 8th house Capricorn, Mars ruling the 12th house, and Venus square Saturn.

I have always been attracted to “sadistic” types of men (being heterosexual female) or more accurately men that are capable of displaying psychological power over others, and have a complex expression that, as a consequence, appears sadistic.

A good example was a boy I knew in high school (Sun conjunct Saturn in Scorpio, Mercury conjunct Uranus in Sag, Aqua Mars square Pluto, Venus conjunct Jupiter in Cap), whom once told two students to have sex in a public restroom while he waited outside - he said the reason he did this was because the tension between the two was driving him nuts and he wanted them to get it over with. It is a bizarre sort of charisma that someone can command two people to have sex in public, and they comply.

I don’t enjoy pain or humiliation myself and find masochism to be boring and annoying. So, I am not really sure how to describe the dynamic I am after. Perhaps I could describe it as a dom that appreciates being dominated by a competent adversary. :lol:
 
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GuyWithWeirdChart

Well-known member
As a guy that has experimented with BDSM as a "Dom" , my personal opinion is that it isn't a very healthy state of mind to be in... but if it works for you and you have a partner that enjoys it then by all means.. it's very odd how my sexual preferences changed over time. When I was a young teen 14-15 I would've never even considered asking a woman for "oral" because I found it to be "disrespectful, selfish, and degrading", but at 16 I had my first experience with it and liked it, and then at 18 things started getting "rough"... and up until I was 21 it just got more and more "sadistic" . I have been abstaining from sexual activity for about 3 years now. Looking back I'm not sure how that happened, I think pornography plays a big role in it.. I watched **** from a young age and was addicted, and as I got older you watch more graphic things and I guess I wanted to try it myself? I also had a lot of inner tension when I turned 18, I had a lot of stressful things occur and it took a toll on me, I think that may have also played a role in my "experimentation" it felt good being able to release that frustration in some way... although it is quite disturbing to think about now. I don't think I would ever engage in those activities anymore. Even if the other person is okay with it, I still believe it to be wrong on some level... like if someone tells you to punch them in the face because they like it, does that make it okay? I guess you can't really get an objective answer. Even though it's not exactly the same it's still a similar concept to what usually goes on with BDSM.

But anyways, as far as sadistic tendencies.. I personally believe Sun square Pluto can produce such a person as I have had many negative experiences with these people, they can be quite manipulative, underhanded, and some of them even seem to take pleasure in other people suffering or struggling.. (Sadistic)

The "East Area Rapist" that was recently caught was a very sadistic individual, his method of killing/rape was very power oriented.. I looked up his chart, although I don't have his exact birth time he has the asteroid "Sado" almost exactly parallel to his Sun. So I think Sado in prominent aspect to a personal planet might be an indicator.

He also has a Mars-Saturn conjunction, now I think this aspect can go either way... As someone who has a Mars conjunct & parallel to Saturn I think this can create a lot of tension inside people, it can be a very frustrating aspect to have, Mars wants to take action but Saturn restricts it for some reason or another and therefore you're "stuck" so to speak and you can't fulfill your desire. Some say that this aspect can make someone "cold", I think it probably can. It would probably depend on the rest of the chart though.
I have a tight Mars square Pluto aspect so I think that could also be a source of my "sadistic" desires in the past.

But if I had to name just one it'd be the Sun square Pluto, I have many experiences with people that had this particular aspect and i've witnessed first hand how messed up they can be, for no apparent reason.
 
Abby83

Abby83

Well-known member
Flapjacks said:
I have a hard time judging different kinds of relationships to determine what is objectively healthy or unhealthy, so I am not going to try with your situation. I tend to have respect (even if I am uncomfortable or saddened) for people that have an awareness of what they are doing and when they fully understand the consequences. To go to an extreme, martyrs are saints but they are not healthy by any DSM evaluation.

My placements include a lot of power dynamics with Pluto square Sun/Moon/Mercury, Mars and Neptune in the 8th house Capricorn, Mars ruling the 12th house, and Venus square Saturn.

I have always been attracted to “sadistic” types of men (being heterosexual female) or more accurately men that are capable of displaying psychological power over others, and have a complex expression that, as a consequence, appears sadistic.

A good example was a boy I knew in high school (Sun conjunct Saturn in Scorpio, Mercury conjunct Uranus in Sag, Aqua Mars square Pluto, Venus conjunct Jupiter in Cap), whom once told two students to have sex in a public restroom while he waited outside - he said the reason he did this was because the tension between the two was driving him nuts and he wanted them to get it over with. It is a bizarre sort of charisma that someone can command two people to have sex in public, and they comply.

I don’t enjoy pain or humiliation myself and find masochism to be boring and annoying. So, I am not really sure how to describe the dynamic I am after. Perhaps I could describe it as a dom that appreciates being dominated by a competent adversary. :lol:
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Thank you for that mind opening reply. Interesting. Makes sense as I see Capricorn ruling authority and domination. Also being in 8th house of possessive sex. Venus square Saturn, also torn between loving expression and authority.
 
Abby83

Abby83

Well-known member
GuyWithWeirdChart said:
As a guy that has experimented with BDSM as a "Dom" , my personal opinion is that it isn't a very healthy state of mind to be in... but if it works for you and you have a partner that enjoys it then by all means.. it's very odd how my sexual preferences changed over time. When I was a young teen 14-15 I would've never even considered asking a woman for "oral" because I found it to be "disrespectful, selfish, and degrading", but at 16 I had my first experience with it and liked it, and then at 18 things started getting "rough"... and up until I was 21 it just got more and more "sadistic" . I have been abstaining from sexual activity for about 3 years now. Looking back I'm not sure how that happened, I think pornography plays a big role in it.. I watched **** from a young age and was addicted, and as I got older you watch more graphic things and I guess I wanted to try it myself? I also had a lot of inner tension when I turned 18, I had a lot of stressful things occur and it took a toll on me, I think that may have also played a role in my "experimentation" it felt good being able to release that frustration in some way... although it is quite disturbing to think about now. I don't think I would ever engage in those activities anymore. Even if the other person is okay with it, I still believe it to be wrong on some level... like if someone tells you to punch them in the face because they like it, does that make it okay? I guess you can't really get an objective answer. Even though it's not exactly the same it's still a similar concept to what usually goes on with BDSM.

But anyways, as far as sadistic tendencies.. I personally believe Sun square Pluto can produce such a person as I have had many negative experiences with these people, they can be quite manipulative, underhanded, and some of them even seem to take pleasure in other people suffering or struggling.. (Sadistic)

The "East Area Rapist" that was recently caught was a very sadistic individual, his method of killing/rape was very power oriented.. I looked up his chart, although I don't have his exact birth time he has the asteroid "Sado" almost exactly parallel to his Sun. So I think Sado in prominent aspect to a personal planet might be an indicator.

He also has a Mars-Saturn conjunction, now I think this aspect can go either way... As someone who has a Mars conjunct & parallel to Saturn I think this can create a lot of tension inside people, it can be a very frustrating aspect to have, Mars wants to take action but Saturn restricts it for some reason or another and therefore you're "stuck" so to speak and you can't fulfill your desire. Some say that this aspect can make someone "cold", I think it probably can. It would probably depend on the rest of the chart though.
I have a tight Mars square Pluto aspect so I think that could also be a source of my "sadistic" desires in the past.

But if I had to name just one it'd be the Sun square Pluto, I have many experiences with people that had this particular aspect and i've witnessed first hand how messed up they can be, for no apparent reason.
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I have the same thoughts as you.

From what I've seen from sadists, they seem to have a few tough Pluto aspects. Two that I know have Pluto square moon square mercury. One of them also has the Saturn opposite Venus. One of the sadists put it like this - he doesn't get any pleasure from loving sex. He was negging before negging was a thing cos he got a rise out of it. He loves putting down the woman cos it makes him feel powerful. That's where I think the moon comes in. Even though mercury and Pluto square his moon, the moon is in fall in Capricorn. And his 12th ruler is also moon. This shows the women in his life tend to be sacrificing giving, but he has no respect for them cos his authority is of utmost importance.
 
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GuyWithWeirdChart

Well-known member
Abby83 said:
I have the same thoughts as you.

From what I've seen from sadists, they seem to have a few tough Pluto aspects. Two that I know have Pluto square moon square mercury. One of them also has the Saturn opposite Venus. One of the sadists put it like this - he doesn't get any pleasure from loving sex. He was negging before negging was a thing cos he got a rise out of it. He loves putting down the woman cos it makes him feel powerful. That's where I think the moon comes in. Even though mercury and Pluto square his moon, the moon is in fall in Capricorn. And his 12th ruler is also moon. This shows the women in his life tend to be sacrificing giving, but he has no respect for them cos his authority is of utmost importance.
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Pluto would most definetly play a role in things, it's such an intense energy that gets created especially the harder aspects. For me, I can love and I would prefer normal "love making" to harder stuff, in fact I have a Taurus Asc. With a Piscs Venus almost exactly trine Pluto so the ruler of my chart is exalted in Pisces and it's mildly intensified by Pluto . I think another thing that led me to try BDSM was how mainstream it's starting to become, even if it's not full on BDSM it seems like a lot of people enjoy things rough. Almost as if "normal" sex would be a bore, and I didn't want to be that lame person that just does things normal. I think stuff like BDSM is a lot more lust oriented, in fact I'd say it might even be pure lust. Even back then when I use to engage in those activities I always knew I would never do anything like that with a girl I respect, like If I ever met a girl I actually loved and respected I could never do anything to hurt her in any way, even if it was consensual or just for sexual purposes. I dealt with a lot of heart breaks in the past, and I think during that period of time I was pretty hopeless, I didn't have faith in people I thought that maybe the love I once desired was just a fairy tale thst could never be truly obtained. As someone with a Pisces Stellium I'm prone to dellusional ways of thinking so this is why I was second guessing myself. So I figured if I can't have true love I'll just have to settle for lust. But I now realize that I wasnt being true to myself If I continued to live that way, that's actually why I've abstained for all these years. I had hoped to reset my sexual behavior in an attempt to revert back to my old self. I can't say that ive completely gotten over those desires, however I can surely say that I won't engage in those activities anymore for ethical reasons. I started to think about things from a female perspective as well, like for me it was a phase and I knew that, so I started thinking. What if the female is just going through a phase as well , she might regret this in the future, or what if they were sexually abused in their youth so they think this type of activity is normal or healthy? I may have been over thinking things but I still believe that it's always best to stay true to yourself and don't settle for less. I truly believe that if someone really loves you they won't ask you to engage in that type of stuff. They won't get pleasure from making you suffer in any way , that's just lust. And for me personally, if I loved and respected someone and then engaged with them in that type of "play" I don't think I would be able to see them the same way again.
 
Abby83

Abby83

Well-known member
I get what you're saying about pisces (and anything neptunian or 12th house) and being delusional re sex. Pisces will try to turn pain into something positive. So if abused, they can easily fall into the trap of subconsciously becoming stimulated by pain (speaking from experience). Like, instead of accepting the pain and suffering, they turn it around cos they cant keep going like that. They need to experience pleasure too so it's easy for the two to become intertwined. It's also easy for the abused to get out of their pain by imagining they're the abuser experiencing the pleasure causing the pain.

The higher level of pisces of course (like in your case) is to search for the true, real, unconditional love. So even if painful love has been experienced, we know there's a higher more emotionally satisfying kind of love that nurtures us and is affectionate. Yes, that may sound boring but deep down I think everyone strives for this kind of love and sex, which would probably be the reason why pisces is the last sign of the zodiac. It is my personal opinion that we get to experience pisces/neptunian/12th house qualities in our last incarnations.

Another thing about ppl with quite a few afflicted pluto aspects, venus Saturn hard aspects, and asc ruler in 10th house of authority - the excessive need for domination, control and authority overrides any consideration of pain that might be caused. Like they'll do anything to remain in control and dominant. Anything. If you get in their way they will inflict harm. In fact Im a bit confused about their whole awareness of it all. Like some ppl say they know very well they are harming ppl. But other ppl say they are overrided by the excessive need for control and domination that they will do anything. Some will rape or kill or whatever so long as they feel the way they need.
 
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Flapjacks

Flapjacks

Well-known member
@GuyWithWeirdChart

Pluto aspects can show where we are constantly reinventing ourselves. It would not be hard to imagine that your attitude towards sex changes over time - that happens to most people. However there can be more extremes that cause a complete re-evaluation when Pluto is involved.

It is interesting how sex is not considered an inherently violent act; that it is made violent by bad behavior. To me, it is like saying killing an animal is not violent because the meat has been well dressed and you use proper etiquette with your cutlery.

Life is a clashing of bodies against one another. It is not a diminishing statement - the fantastical, real, most satisfying thing is being at the merging point, or the division, depending on your view (Neptune or Saturn, ha), and finding you don’t exist anywhere else. At least, that has been my spiritual experience.

I have never been all that concerned with the relationship between sex and love, except in a practical sense (my chart is heavy on Earth, Venus in Virgo trine Cap Mars, and a Cap Moon). Maybe it is a silly question, but why is it important to relate the two so strongly?
 
Abby83

Abby83

Well-known member
Flapjacks said:
@GuyWithWeirdChart

Pluto aspects can show where we are constantly reinventing ourselves. It would not be hard to imagine that your attitude towards sex changes over time - that happens to most people. However there can be more extremes that cause a complete re-evaluation when Pluto is involved.

It is interesting how sex is not considered an inherently violent act; that it is made violent by bad behavior. To me, it is like saying killing an animal is not violent because the meat has been well dressed and you use proper etiquette with your cutlery.

Life is a clashing of bodies against one another. It is not a diminishing statement - the fantastical, real, most satisfying thing is being at the merging point, or the division, depending on your view (Neptune or Saturn, ha), and finding you don’t exist anywhere else. At least, that has been my spiritual experience.

I have never been all that concerned with the relationship between sex and love, except in a practical sense (my chart is heavy on Earth, Venus in Virgo trine Cap Mars, and a Cap Moon). Maybe it is a silly question, but why is it important to relate the two so strongly?
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Its a good thing you found me on this thread lol.

Why is love important? Omg it is the highest level of feeling. Physical pleasure is a basic need. Emotional soul love exceeds physical pleasure. Combining the two is the highest level one can achieve.

I honestly must say that after all this promotion of friends with benefits or just f buddies never made sense to me. I've done casual sex myself. The problem is it lacks the love component. By the person just being a physical thing, that's all they are. It gets pretty boring after a while (on the soul level). Sure it can boost the ego and can be thrilling. But when thrills die the physical attachment does too, unless the emotional love is there. Love is so powerful and ppl who can't see how sex and love need each other are truly missing out.

I'll give examples of my in laws and my HB and I. My in laws have a relationship where the mother in laws (mil) controls fil with food and sex. My HB and I both have food and sex too, but we love each other. This is one thing the in laws don't have together. My mil is incapable of loving anyone cos she doesn't even love herself. But anyway, my point is, they wish they could have the love my HB and I have. Its the icing on the cake.
 
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GuyWithWeirdChart

Well-known member
Flapjacks said:
@GuyWithWeirdChart

Pluto aspects can show where we are constantly reinventing ourselves. It would not be hard to imagine that your attitude towards sex changes over time - that happens to most people. However there can be more extremes that cause a complete re-evaluation when Pluto is involved.

It is interesting how sex is not considered an inherently violent act; that it is made violent by bad behavior. To me, it is like saying killing an animal is not violent because the meat has been well dressed and you use proper etiquette with your cutlery.

Life is a clashing of bodies against one another. It is not a diminishing statement - the fantastical, real, most satisfying thing is being at the merging point, or the division, depending on your view (Neptune or Saturn, ha), and finding you don’t exist anywhere else. At least, that has been my spiritual experience.

I have never been all that concerned with the relationship between sex and love, except in a practical sense (my chart is heavy on Earth, Venus in Virgo trine Cap Mars, and a Cap Moon). Maybe it is a silly question, but why is it important to relate the two so strongly?
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Well I hope I understand your question correctly. But I feel like true love is something beyond lust, most people put a lot of emphasis on sex, I've asked in other groups if people would leave their partners if the sex wasn't good enough or if they felt unsatisfied sexually. Pretty much everyone answered yes especially if they were Mars dominant or ruled by Mars. (Scorpios, Aries, strong Mars conjunctions, etc...) this has led me to believe that these people are incapable of true love. Why? Because I made my question very specific, stating that if everything else was good, and you had a deep soul connection with them and then all of a sudden one day they were incapable of having sex would you still leave them? The answer was yes.. some said they would have to satisfy their desires elsewhere (with a side person who is capable of sex). I found that to be quite shocking, it makes sense though I suppose (considering they're heavily influenced by Mars). But to me true love isn't about sex at all, people can say things like "sex is important because it's a merging of souls" I personally think that's just sugar coating their decision to leave if sex wasn't in the picture. That's just my perspective though, I feel like sex and love are two completely different things. Can you have sex with someone you love? Yes. Sex is something that two people can share to make each other feel good, but if one person wasn't satisfied and they decide to leave, that isn't love. True love is absolute, and leaving your "soul mate" for something so petty is laughable to me. That's another reason why I choose to abstain from relationships these past few years. It seems like my perspective on things is much different than a lot of people, and I had even considered dating asexual individuals because of this. There minds wouldn't be tainted with the idea that love and sex go hand in hand. If I ever do enter a relationship I want it to be true, not for what I can give them physically. Ive always taken love pretty serious, I'm very loyal and committed in partnerships and having experienced so many silly people it's really left me quite bitter, but unfortunately for me, that's the world we live in. I'm ruled by Venus and it being exalted in Pisces I yearn for true love, nothing less. Perhaps to them sexual fulfillment is part of true love, but for me I can't see eye to eye with that. I love people for who they are, their personality. Things like sex taint the pureness of love in my opinion. Even as someone with a very high sex drive I can say I would gladly sacrafice sex completely if it meant being with someone capable of true love. If you truly love somebody you can make many sacrafices for them, even something hardwired into the human psyche can be cast aside. I don't think sex is bad, however if loved somebody I would have no desire to harm them in sex, because for me you can't just say "okay timeout, we're gonna have sex now so all the respect and principles surrounding a relationship disappears now". Lol, but yeah hopefully I answered your question.
 
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Abby83

Abby83

Well-known member
Honestly, I think we need both love and sex. But I think we need love a little more. I'll speak of my own experiences. Time and time again I've been able to walk away easily from sex only relationships. But in my relationship with my husband where it was based on love, there were many times it was sexless, and I still stayed. I couldn't leave. Back in 2011 I broke up with him many times. Id have a sex fling, realise I wanted my HB, and then come back.
Last year he and I lost love for each other for a bit, so we split for short time again and then fell in love again.
 
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