Digging, digging, learning... got one simple question

Well this has been quite a learning experience. Something happened just a few minutes ago, which I might otherwise have paid much attention to, but I began to realize it is a reflex. It's a running theme throughout life.

Here's what happened: I was studying something about midheaven and oriental planets. I came upon a sentence in which the writer wrote something clearly debatable as though it was an assumed truth. I saw flashes of red. Reacted. Wanted to shout, "hey! Time out! I'm not sure I agree... if the rest of what you're saying depends on whether this you say is an inarguable truth, then we should not go any further until we sort this all out, which could take awhile, so we better order plenty of beers and chips."

Then I started thinking about it, this reaction, and it's pretty much a no-fail way to arouse what are normally rather passive passions.

The problem is not whether the statement presented as fact rather than possibility-to-chew-on is in fact correct or otherwise. It could very well be. After a nice long season of casually thinking on it, I might end up in agreement. What makes it ever more aggravating is the inability to directly ask the speaker to pause so I can at least raise a voice that may not necessarily agree with what is spoken of as a truth.

Just curious who/what/ planet/sign is involved here. Uranus? Mercury? Libra? Virgo? Combination? Well it's reactive... so... something Fixed, in comfortable recline... when without warning, a firecracker explodes... Reaction.

Struck, I'm no pro, but my first thoughts were something connected with Uranus and a personal planet or point possibly, or maybe something with Mars. I searched for your chart and found it in another thread of yours and for what you described I would tend to think that Scorpio stellium there in the 11th with Mars/Mercury/Moon (and Neptune), looks quite likely for a quick-temperatured emotional reaction like the one you described to me. With that stellium in a fixed sign like Scorpio, you might not be as easily convicted anyway and possibly like to validate certain things for yourself before you accept them as ok for yourself? Without looking at the house position or other aspects and planets, I would guess you're quite a deep emotional and willful thinker and person with occasional emotional outbursts deriving from that stellium there? (Take this with a grain of salt though, as I'm still in the beginner state of analyzing charts myself) You were actually surprised by your own reaction there, if I got you right? So you never experienced such reactions before then?

Put your chart up on this thread, and you'll get plenty of suggestions.

Sounds to me like either a Uranus/Mars connection - square, conj or opposition - or some Scorpio overload.

gimzo23 said:

Struck, I'm no pro, but my first thoughts were something connected with Uranus and a personal planet or point possibly, or maybe something with Mars. I searched for your chart and found it in another thread of yours and for what you described I would tend to think that Scorpio stellium there in the 11th with Mars/Mercury/Moon (and Neptune), looks quite likely for a quick-temperatured emotional reaction like the one you described to me. With that stellium in a fixed sign like Scorpio, you might not be as easily convicted anyway and possibly like to validate certain things for yourself before you accept them as ok for yourself? Without looking at the house position or other aspects and planets, I would guess you're quite a deep emotional and willful thinker and person with occasional emotional outbursts deriving from that stellium there? (Take this with a grain of salt though, as I'm still in the beginner state of analyzing charts myself) You were actually surprised by your own reaction there, if I got you right? So you never experienced such reactions before then?

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Oh they've been experienced and I was not surprised, but, I'd never really noticed, if that makes sense. And then I recall that it happens, maybe not so frequent, but it's a reaction easily set off by a few triggers, like when someone writing or speaking as an authority on any given topic throws out an absolute-sounding statement, as if no one would dare think to stop the proceedings and examine the statement. It's usually something that someone has written or something someone says on television, so you can't really do anything about it, which is really the aggravating part.

See, in your reply, there's a lot of 'looks like' and 'guess' and stuff like that. I can handle that. It leaves room for head-nodding, wondering, considering possibilities. A lot of these descriptions around the internet that use the "you are like this and you wear these kind of clothes and you have such and such kind of face and walk like such and such..." they kind of put me off. That's when I take another glance back at skepticism, or at least think it would be better to nail down the basic ideas behind the planets and signs and build more personal meanings. I do understand that some of them are written more for entertainment purposes, which is fine, and as far as their right to free speech, that's something I certainly defend. I guess it comes down to all of us finding the best ways and resources that fit best.

It's not just astrology sites. It's widespread. Politicians do it, door-to-door missionaries and salesmen and telemarketers do it... the commonality would be someone trying to get someone else to accept something, sell something, believe something, and in order to do it they have to get you to agree with some premise. Some are honest and upfront and sincere, and others a bit more sneaky.

You're a guitar player?

R4VEN said:

Put your chart up on this thread, and you'll get plenty of suggestions.

Sounds to me like either a Uranus/Mars connection - square, conj or opposition - or some Scorpio overload.

Click to expand...

That's probably it.
Just learned a little about mutual reception too... mercury in Scorpio/Pluto in Virgo. Would that fall under the definition of mutual reception?

Got a couple charts laying around here somewhere. Could go find the links...

See, I read all this info but have trouble getting a clear picture what's going on. Then something significant jumps out like what I described, and go, "okay! What's that? Ahh, so that's scorpio?"

Struck said:

That's probably it.
Just learned a little about mutual reception too... mercury in Scorpio/Pluto in Virgo. Would that fall under the definition of mutual reception?

Got a couple charts laying around here somewhere. Could go find the links...

See, I read all this info but have trouble getting a clear picture what's going on. Then something significant jumps out like what I described, and go, "okay! What's that? Ahh, so that's scorpio?"

Click to expand...

Mmmm - not sure. I'm a bit of an if & maybe kind of person.

I just had a thought. Perhaps you can try PM-ing EJ53 with your chart attached. He's a Scorpio - Sun, Mercury, south node & Chiron - and he's very precise in his thought-processes and his conclusions. He perceives things no-one else is even aware of, and he has the ability to crash a thread like no-one else - just because his mind takes him places the rest of us seem unable to go. He may be able to help you.

PS: That mutual reception of Merc & Pluto may just be at the source of this. There's a preciseness about that; Mercury in Scorpio is usually very accurate & concise, drawing attention to detail - the ins & outs of everything - but is also quite harsh in its judgements.

Something like...

John Belushi in Animal House. The Toga party. He's walking down the stairs. A guy's strumming a guitar and singing about giving his love a cherry that had no stone. Belushi stops, listens, gets that look on his face, and suddenly jerks the guitar out of the guy's hands, and smashes it. Then he calms down, hands the busted up guitar back to the guy, says sheepishly, "sorry."

Is that Mars?

Oh, the chart link:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5754&d=1246248151

Thanx for the visual of your chart.

Without going into any ins & outs and whatevers, I'd say that stellium in Scorpio of personal planets is quite unforgiving - to say he least!!!! I'd hate to be on the receiving end of any of your outbursts.

And the 11th house placement is ideas/intellect.

R4VEN said:

Thanx for the visual of your chart.

Without going into any ins & outs and whatevers, I'd say that stellium in Scorpio of personal planets is quite unforgiving - to say he least!!!! I'd hate to be on the receiving end of any of your outbursts.

And the 11th house placement is ideas/intellect.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your input. Beginning to get a better grasp on some of the meanings and how they might fit and apply, recognizing them when they're doing their things.

Actually I'm rather easy-going. At least that's what I've always assumed, and have always been puzzled at why sometimes people have tended to keep a little distance.

And I wouldn't smash anyone's guitar. I like guitars and guitar players.

BUT... there are other sorts of situations where the urge to get involved (not violently, just emotionally/verbally) would be very strong.

Maybe Libra Sun's preference to keep the peace sort of minimizes actual outward outbursts?

*Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny: "Are you sure about that five minutes?!"

Struck said:

I appreciate your input. Beginning to get a better grasp on some of the meanings and how they might fit and apply, recognizing them when they're doing their things.

Actually I'm rather easy-going. At least that's what I've always assumed, and have always been puzzled at why sometimes people have tended to keep a little distance.

And I wouldn't smash anyone's guitar. I like guitars and guitar players.

BUT... there are other sorts of situations where the urge to get involved (not violently, just emotionally/verbally) would be very strong.

Maybe Libra Sun's preference to keep the peace sort of minimizes actual outward outbursts?

*Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny: "Are you sure about that five minutes?!"

Click to expand...

You know, I hate to say this, but Libra Sun tends to be quite obsessive (when there is significant Scorpio in rest of the chart) about the details, and about putting things right which are not right!!!

One of my sons has Libra sun (conj Pluto, giving that intensity and obsessiveness) and Scorpio ASC. When he decides something is right/not right he can be so scary......... that I pretty much leave the room!!!! He keeps saying, "But I was just expressing how I see things." To which I reply, "But do you have to express yourself like that?" - eyes flashing, and with such-precise-speech.
He has absolutely no idea of the effect he has on others when he is in the process of "Putting The World Right"!
My son claims that there is a dark side to Libra sun which most Librans are not game to explore. He says that it is about manipulation and control and being underhand and working behind the scenes - which is also why Librans make such effective lawyers. He reckons that all Librans have to make a decision about whether they use their Libran qualities to control others or not.

I also know some Librans who have quite significant anger problems, probably as a result of holding in their true feelings and opinions.

The sentence from your post above which I have emboldened and underlined pretty much says it all! Others are showing you something by their responses to you. [As I have said to my son many times, "The world will not tip off its axis if you don't keep a check on things."]

And lastly, this response you have to imprecise statements is at its core a choice. Either you keep doing what you're doing, and your responses will tend to escalate, so that you end up writing letters to the editors of newspapers about imprecise statements by journalists - OR - you can make a decision to let go of the need to make things right, perhaps by getting enraged at sweeping statements. People will keep doing this regardless of how you react, and what is more, they will keep doing it long after you are gone from this earth. Are you going to let this reaction of yours control you - or not?

One last thing..................
I suspect your reactions to statements people make has its origins in some things which were said to you when you were young - perhaps by your mother (Moon conj Merc in Scorpio points me in this direction). Perhaps some things were said to you as statements of fact, when they were not ever true at all. Adult anger is almost always seeded somewhere in childhood.

Struck said:

Oh they've been experienced and I was not surprised, but, I'd never really noticed, if that makes sense. And then I recall that it happens, maybe not so frequent, but it's a reaction easily set off by a few triggers, like when someone writing or speaking as an authority on any given topic throws out an absolute-sounding statement, as if no one would dare think to stop the proceedings and examine the statement. It's usually something that someone has written or something someone says on television, so you can't really do anything about it, which is really the aggravating part.

See, in your reply, there's a lot of 'looks like' and 'guess' and stuff like that. I can handle that. It leaves room for head-nodding, wondering, considering possibilities. A lot of these descriptions around the internet that use the "you are like this and you wear these kind of clothes and you have such and such kind of face and walk like such and such..." they kind of put me off. That's when I take another glance back at skepticism, or at least think it would be better to nail down the basic ideas behind the planets and signs and build more personal meanings. I do understand that some of them are written more for entertainment purposes, which is fine, and as far as their right to free speech, that's something I certainly defend. I guess it comes down to all of us finding the best ways and resources that fit best.

It's not just astrology sites. It's widespread. Politicians do it, door-to-door missionaries and salesmen and telemarketers do it... the commonality would be someone trying to get someone else to accept something, sell something, believe something, and in order to do it they have to get you to agree with some premise. Some are honest and upfront and sincere, and others a bit more sneaky.

You're a guitar player?

Click to expand...

Struck, yeah I would be suspicious, too, if it were a professional astrologer using too many "open-keeping" and guessing words in chart readings. I didn't use these words to keep myself some kind of backdoor open or for that I can't be nailed down for something I say, or anything like that you seem to think or imply there. I used these words, because I don't want to give definitive statements about things I'm not 100% sure about yet, or about something like chart readings that I'm not able to analyze to the fullest yet. I'm actually learning like many other people on this forum here, too, and that's why, for the very few times that I dare openly writing about something on someone else's chart here, I usually mention it several times that I'm a beginner myself and to take my post with a grain of salt. Better than half-knowing people arrogantly insisting on knowing better and selling their ultimate truth, don't you think? I thought it would be self-explinatory as to why I used these words a couple of times there because of me having made myself clear that I'm a beginner as well.

It looks like I possibly have been on the right track with the involvement of the Scorpio stellium there though? So that would be nice to see.

Well R4VEN, you offer a lot to think on. Funny you mentioned your son, and that you bolded that he can be scary. I've been told that on occasion. "So and so says you're scary..." Or I look like a mean person. Or just plain odd or weird. And without me really doing anything. Just existing.

Which again brings up the ascendant question. I'm supposed to be Sagittarius. The ascendant is supposedly the outer impression you give to others (which I kinda take issue with, because this assumes everyone wears a mask in every public moment throughout their lives). So then I go and search for Sagittarius Ascendant interpretations, and about half of what I find I shake my head and frown, because they sure ain't describing me, at least what people have indicated to me their impressions are.

This caused off and on frustrations for over a year. How do I know I'm working with an authentic birth time? Maybe the town was using Daylight Savings then. The free chart sites always say not to worry about that because it's taken care of. But what if they missed a few? If I backed up the time one hour then it's Scorpio Asc. I'd check those interpretations out: somewhat more but not completely accurate. What's going on here? They're both about half accurate. And then... I studied more on the aspects. Noticed a square involving none other than Pluto & Asc. Couldn't help but suppose that explained a lot of the confusion.

I also studied about the decans. See, there's a similar 50-50 quandary whenever I do internet searches on Libra Sun. The stuff about balance and harmony and seeing all sides... yeah, nod, that's about right (I do have the dimples). But then they into the socializing and flirty parts, and that's when I'm frowning... Hm, maybe a little, not really... And then I discovered decans. Found out I was in the Aquarius decan. Ah. I can't help but wonder if that means something, shifts things a bit. And then I can't help but wonder if your son's libra is also in the Aquarius decan... ? If so, then I think I can really understand your son's predicament.

Now, if Libra is about exploring every possible angle to any given thing, there might be an attraction to keeping as many options open as possible. And pangs of acute discomfort could happen if any of those options are suddenly closed to further exploration. Maybe that's not Libra. Or Libra and something else? Don't know.

It might have something to do with preferring the journey or the arrival. The question or the answer. Asking a question but maybe not really wanting a rapidly returned answer. There's exceptions of course. There's nagging questions that hinder the journey: car breaking down in a bad part of town while on a long, scenic trip to the beach. In this case the preference would be a solution that didn't spend too much time on theory. And when I came upon the concept of the Singleton, I noticed my Uranus was the only planet in a fire sign, but also the north node was in the same sign. I spent well over 1 year (off and on) trying to figure out whether my uranus was a singleton, if nodes were counted. I joined this forum. Finally got fed up with that particular question. Asked. Got the answer.

So exceptions certainly abound. And context should always be considered. Ah... now I got lost. Shall regather thoughts and return.

gimzo23 said:

Struck, yeah I would be suspicious, too, if it were a professional astrologer using too many "open-keeping" and guessing words in chart readings. I didn't use these words to keep myself some kind of backdoor open or for that I can't be nailed down for something I say, or anything like that you seem to think or imply there. I used these words, because I don't want to give definitive statements about things I'm not 100% sure about yet, or about something like chart readings that I'm not able to analyze to the fullest yet. I'm actually learning like many other people on this forum here, too, and that's why, for the very few times that I dare openly writing about something on someone else's chart here, I usually mention it several times that I'm a beginner myself and to take my post with a grain of salt. Better than half-knowing people arrogantly insisting on knowing better and selling their ultimate truth, don't you think? I thought it would be self-explinatory as to why I used these words a couple of times there because of me having made myself clear that I'm a beginner as well.

It looks like I possibly have been on the right track with the involvement of the Scorpio stellium there though? So that would be nice to see.

Click to expand...

Ah! I think you did nail it. The greater the authority or responsibility, the closer the scrutiny, higher standards, greater expectations, which, if vandalized, tempts cynicism.


Example:

All Irish people are drunkards.

Now, if it's a sudden blurt while some neighbors are sitting on the front porch, gabbing, joking, etc... someone says George got drunk last night. Someone else replies, well George is Irish, and we all know that Irish people are all drunkards...

Of course that's an easy statement to debate. And it's on local, small-scale level, and if you backed the speakers into a corner and asked them if they really believed that all irish people are drunkards, they'd probably say of course not, it's just an expression, a stereotype, something to gab about. Relatively harmless.

A person rises to prominent leadership position on a national scale. Makes an announcement. Says that since everybody knows that all Irish people are drunkards, new laws are being enacted that make it illegal for Irish people to purchase or possess alcoholic beverages, nor will they be allowed to drive cars anymore...

Now we have a problem.

And Gizmo, I think you're on to something with the stellium. I went and studied the Scorpio Mars. My head nodded far more with that one than the Sag Asc & Libra Sun. They talked about the aries mars vs scorpio mars. How that if something upsets an aries mars they'll tend to fling it out there and it's over with, while the scorpio mars feels the same reactions but directs them inwards. So they may appear outwardly calm and composed but inside things are pretty hot.

Studied a little on Scorpio Mercury too. More head nods. Scorpio Moon? Still a bit fuzzy on that one. Neptune? Could that tend to fog up the perceptions? So mercury and mars sometimes misread intents?

Thanks again for the inputs... when I gain better understanding I hope to repay the generosity to others.

Struck said:

..........A person rises to prominent leadership position on a national scale. Makes an announcement. Says that since everybody knows that all Irish people are drunkards, new laws are being enacted that make it illegal for Irish people to purchase or possess alcoholic beverages, nor will they be allowed to drive cars anymore.....Now we have a problem.

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And it's a major problem, Struck.........If we have an anaretic degree Uranus in Leo/9th ("I believe knowledge is power").......opposite Chiron in Pisces/3rd (communication is a vehicle of injustice).......and qcx Saturn/Jupiter in Capricorn/2nd (Can the values of the Authorities be trusted?).

Chiron has taught you how words can be used to mislead the masses; Saturn/Jupiter has taught you to question the motives of those in power and Uranus is the planet of truth in the sign of leadership and house of higher knowledge.........(But of course, I'm guessing rather than making a statement here.)

EJ53 said:

And it's a major problem, Struck.........If we have an anaretic degree Uranus in Leo/9th ("I believe knowledge is power").......opposite Chiron in Pisces/3rd (communication is a vehicle of injustice).......and qcx Saturn/Jupiter in Capricorn/2nd (Can the values of the Authorities be trusted?).

Chiron has taught you how words can be used to mislead the masses; Saturn/Jupiter has taught you to question the motives of those in power and Uranus is the planet of truth in the sign of leadership and house of higher knowledge.........(But of course, I'm guessing rather than making a statement here.) ha ha...

Click to expand...

Ah, your name was mentioned yesterday.

uh, what's anaretic, please?

Chiron. it's something that I tend to overlook but tends to crop up. Walter Pullen says it is very prominent in "this person's psyche!"

Like your unique take on the 2nd house too. A fresh view. And uranus: another oft overlooked...

Much thanks.

Plenty to mull now.

One More

Okay, make that two. Couple minor details that have bugged and might as well get them out of the way.

1) I read about chart shapes. From what I understand I'm thinking this one is a bowl. But that Sat/Jup partly separated... does that make it a bucket? So: bowl or bucket or... ?

2) In the aspect graphic it shows a square with Mars and Jupiter. It doesn't indicate anything between Mars and Saturn or any of the other stellium planets and Jupiter (a couple with Saturn). If Jupiter and Saturn are conjunct and Mars squares Jupiter, does that mean Mars also squares Saturn even though the little square-thingy doesn't appear on the graphic? And the other stellium planets would square Jupiter, even though it only shows the square between Mars and Jupiter?

That should do it for now.
Thanks again.

This is a topic I can definately relate to. I have been known to argue with books, newpapers, t.v.s, radios and so on. It hasn't ever got physical. I have yet to give a book a good thrashing by throwing it across the room .

Some of the chief culpits in my chart are moon/n. node in libra in 2nd house opposing mars/venus in aries in the 8th house. Mercury in taurus in 9th forming a t-square with uranus in scorpio in 3rd and saturn in leo in 12th. I think my chart and tendencies validates, to an extent, what has been said so far in this thread.

When I was younger (still do to some extent), I had a bad case of setting things right- of the type that R4VEN was descibing. By the way,that was a very insightful post R4VEN. I think it's only been in the past 2-4 years that I've come to acknowledge that the world won't end if I don't set wrongs right, and that I'm probally not really making a change by 'setting people right'. That being said, it's almost an instinctual quality that I have, so I have to consciouslly override the urge to speak up.

There have been many times my 'crusading' qualities have given me the courage to put myself in the line of fire in the face of injustice. It's a great trait to have when courage is needed but an annoying trait to have for the day to day grind. I don't really need to get so intense about little things. Do I really need to build a strategy to deal with the receptionist at the gym who harasses me about having lost my gym card every time I check in at the gym. My little brain gets to churning over how I didn't have a card for 3 months due to a mistake on the gym's part and how I didn't harasses them about it, but now that the shoe is on the other foot, they are harassing me (my moon in libra, starts stomping her foot, saying that is unfair)...See what I mean not a good trait for daily living. The challenge is knowing how to choose my battles. Ok, I'm getting off of my tangent now. Thank you for starting this thread Struck. It's an interesting topic.

Hi lilllybelle.

I think what we're talking about here would be related to the old "4 out of 5" use/do/believe/buy/endorse whatever, so of course you should too. I can't help but wonder if that 1 odd one maybe had a better idea that just didn't catch on.

I understand what you're talking about. I have a tendency to question a lot of what I am told also. This can make me contrary at times. I'm actively working on keeping my contrary ideas to myself so I don't rock the boat over things that don't probally matter in the long run. I take very little to be a fact and I question most everything.