Anti-Capitalism Thread

Cap

Well-known member
:lol: Welcome Appleo!

Just a few quick remarks for you:

First of all... people who don't like capitalism don't like freedom.

Capitalism, is essentially, individuals freely trading with one another.

Quite the opposite! I don't like capitalism because I love freedom.

Markets and trade have existed long before capitalism. What was new and specific for capitalism was employer - employee relationship. And this is nothing but a modified slavery.

capitalism_slavery.jpg


If I have something that you want, and you have something that I want, we must VOLUNTARILY agree to trade with each other.

According to latest statistics 85% of people on this planet hate their jobs. It can hardly be said that they happily and voluntarily go to work every day.

https://returntonow.net/2017/09/22/85-people-hate-jobs-gallup-poll-says/

The reason why we have private property and have ownership is so that trading can be made possible. How do you make a trade if everyone owns everything? And if everyone owns everything, how do we decide who gets to have what? Cuz material resources are finite.

Yes, the idea of moneyless economy is to abolish trade. Trade as an indicator of demand is no longer necessary, nor it is necessary to have some socialist centralized planned economy. In our modern times of internet and iphones we, as a society, can know exact demand at any given moment, with a precision down to a single potato.

There's plenty of resources, if managed intelligently, for everyone on this planet to have extremely high standard of living, much higher than average American today.

When you work at a minimum wage job, you are trading your time and labor in exchange for money. If you don't like it, then quit your job. Start your own business and hire people to work for you.

If we all start our own business, 99,99% of businesses will fail and there will be no one left to work. The nature of the system is such that only a tiny group of people can be successful, everyone else must fail. That's reflected in wealth disparity reports.

If we all, as a society, own automated production then we are all slave owners and machines are our slaves. All people win.

Like when when you say that you think capitalism is a destructive force...

Just wait until 2040 when there will be no fish left in the oceans...

Capitalism probably ***** because there's inequality, and that people are exploited, and that we are constantly bombarded with advertisements....

:smile: I completely agree.

ALSO, even if the alternative did work, it's still immoral. Because the people that work the hardest and smartest won't be entitled to the sweat of their brow. Everyone would be living off of them.

That's why only just alternative society would be automated society.

Like, if you somehow managed to destroy capitalism, what would you replace it with?

I'd seriously like to know.

That's why it is imperative for all people to sit down and discuss the best course of action. I'm sure humanity will find excellent solutions if they really put an effort to it.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
You're not the only third world country. I was talking mostly about European 19th century imperialism and USA's 20th century imperialism.

Super fast crash course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alJaltUmrGo

I was just exposing your double standard when it comes to use of physical force. Exploitation is form of violence, too.

Don't worry, I don't think that mobs you are going to experience in coming years will be politically motivated. Most likely they will just be hungry. Since governments will be poor (especially when billionaires decide they don't want to pay taxes any more), there will be no law enforcement. But this probably won't be a problem for you since you are successful in this system and you will easily pay your private army to protect you and your loved ones from mobs, gangs and your fellow rich man's armies. Everything will be private, truly a libertarian heaven, I think you'll enjoy it. :happy:

Colonialism failed as an economic system, because the "mother nation" would impose restrictions to the colonies for trading with other countries, and they would impose a heavy taxation to colonialist merchants which would stump their capacity for growth. This does not constitute a free market economy, and thus it is not capitalism. The actual name for this system is mercantilism.

The U.S. was one of these many colonies. And the american revolution happened because of these reasons: heavy taxation on goods, restrictions for trade (closing of ports) and a general intervention of the royal goverment into local colonian administrations. The american's suffered exactly the same restrictions Africa, South America and Asia did. However they managed to get their independance, and South America soon followed them. If you check the economic statiscs of Both northern and southern american countries during the 19th century and early 20th century, both continents had a rapid economic expansions and good standards of living.

What we have today in the west is, in reality, closer to mercantilism, because national goverment's have a rather heavy intervention in the economy, and a strong say in its direction; with the biggest diference being that they prefer a balance between enterprise and worker. This is not what classical liberals (today called libertarians) want. This is not capitalism.

We are not in favour of goverment bailouts.
We are not in favour of protectionist policies.
We are not in favour of lobbying politicians.
We support the creation of worker's unions (if workers join it freely and are granted no priviliges by goverment)
We support suing your employer for wrongful termination.
We support consumers taking companies to court for damages.

Low taxation for everyone means more money for workers, to save or invest in themselves. It means more money for entrepeneurs to invest in business which will produce more jobs.

You call this "explotation", of what? I want you to earn more. If you have a job you pay as a minimum 10% of your salary as income tax, 15% on everything you buy on a sales tax, and a different amount of taxes that range from 2%-10% or much more, so on the very least around 40% of the total money you make as a worker is taken away from you by the goverment. And, because businesses are also being taxed, they sell at higher prices, so you are paying at least 20% more in prices on everything you buy.

So in reality the amount of money the goverment takes from you is at least 50% of your income!
Who is exploiting you in reality Cap? the rich guy or the politician in washington?

What we have today is a big goverment that benefits the rich. What you want is a big goverment that benefits the poor. What I want is goverment that doesn't get in the way of anyone, neither rich nor poor. We are the children of Adam Smith. We are on the side of freedom.

On the other hand, what you are pushing is for more goverment. More control, more intervenion. You know why communism failed? because the only ones who got rich were the goverment officials, because goverment is the only entity that gets money under that system. Not to mention the amount of blood they spilled through decades of cruelty over their own population. This is what you are supporting Cap.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Here's something to consider: Nuclear Fusion plants, coming on line by about 2040. That will mark the end of the Fossil-fuel dominance that's the current cause of global conflict. The economic impact will be enormous, and how well it's handled will determine whether Capitalism is fit to survive.

It really depends if nuclear fusion is cheaper than oil.
 

Cap

Well-known member
Colonialism failed as an economic system, because the "mother nation" would impose restrictions to the colonies for trading with other countries, and they would impose a heavy taxation to colonialist merchants which would stump their capacity for growth. This does not constitute a free market economy, and thus it is not capitalism. The actual name for this system is mercantilism.

The U.S. was one of these many colonies. And the american revolution happened because of these reasons: heavy taxation on goods, restrictions for trade (closing of ports) and a general intervention of the royal goverment into local colonian administrations. The american's suffered exactly the same restrictions Africa, South America and Asia did. However they managed to get their independance, and South America soon followed them. If you check the economic statiscs of Both northern and southern american countries during the 19th century and early 20th century, both continents had a rapid economic expansions and good standards of living.

What we have today in the west is, in reality, closer to mercantilism, because national goverment's have a rather heavy intervention in the economy, and a strong say in its direction; with the biggest diference being that they prefer a balance between enterprise and worker. This is not what classical liberals (today called libertarians) want. This is not capitalism.

We are not in favour of goverment bailouts.
We are not in favour of protectionist policies.
We are not in favour of lobbying politicians.
We support the creation of worker's unions (if workers join it freely and are granted no priviliges by goverment)
We support suing your employer for wrongful termination.
We support consumers taking companies to court for damages.

Low taxation for everyone means more money for workers, to save or invest in themselves. It means more money for entrepeneurs to invest in business which will produce more jobs.

You call this "explotation", of what? I want you to earn more. If you have a job you pay as a minimum 10% of your salary as income tax, 15% on everything you buy on a sales tax, and a different amount of taxes that range from 2%-10% or much more, so on the very least around 40% of the total money you make as a worker is taken away from you by the goverment. And, because businesses are also being taxed, they sell at higher prices, so you are paying at least 20% more in prices on everything you buy.

So in reality the amount of money the goverment takes from you is at least 50% of your income!
Who is exploiting you in reality Cap? the rich guy or the politician in washington?

What we have today is a big goverment that benefits the rich. What you want is a big goverment that benefits the poor. What I want is goverment that doesn't get in the way of anyone, neither rich nor poor. We are the children of Adam Smith. We are on the side of freedom.

On the other hand, what you are pushing is for more goverment. More control, more intervenion. You know why communism failed? because the only ones who got rich were the goverment officials, because goverment is the only entity that gets money under that system. Not to mention the amount of blood they spilled through decades of cruelty over their own population. This is what you are supporting Cap.

How did you get the idea that I am for "big government"?

I am pushing for Resource Based Economy. But I am not emotionally attached to that idea. If there is something even better, then I'll support it. What I am 100% sure is that I am against capitalism.

Here is what I am pushing for:

- no money
- no nation states
- no government
- no work, no obligations, no strings attached

- absolute personal freedom

* if you want to contribute something to the society - that's fine
* if you don't want to contribute anything in your entire life - fine
* if you want full set of technology - fine
* if you don't want technology (if you are Amish or for whatever reason) - fine
* you get to live in the place of your choice
* if you want to be isolated and live away from people - fine, you still get everything you need delivered by flying automated drones
* highest possible individual expression and preference - you get to customize every single item in your life if you wish

You could argue that one is not completely free because you don't get your own spaceship, still close enough to freedom for me.

Is it utopia? No, there will be problems.
Is it possible? YES

---

Now, lets examine what you are pushing for (unregulated capitalism).

Are you aware that all "luxuries" you are enjoying in your workplace today were hardly fought and won battles against unregulated capitalism by the left (people you despise)? People paid with their lives so that we can have today:

- no child labor
- safe(r) workplace
- 8 hours work day
- free weekends and holidays
- minimum wage
etc.

Now, you want to throw all this away and push us back to horrors of Laissez-Faire capitalism. Do you have a heart?

pennsylvania-coal-miners.jpg


Oh, wait, you don't have to push us back because the horrors never left.

Dorsen_8_child_worker_in_Congo_s_mi.jpg


Meet Dorsen, 8, who mines cobalt to make your smartphone work

https://news.sky.com/story/meet-dorsen-8-who-mines-cobalt-to-make-your-smartphone-work-10784120

What you don't understand is that capitalism cannot exist without government because there will be no one to enforce the contracts. On the other hand, government mechanism is abused by capitalists so they can get the competitive edge. So called "crony" capitalism is the only possible way capitalism could ever evolve and now it's here and there is no way to "un-evolve" it. This is what you get, this is how capitalism story ends.

Even if you could magically somehow go back and implement "pure free market" it couldn't work because market cannot address externalities nor any problems for which there are no profitable solutions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDFtHly3uoA
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
AppLeo, you're not allowed on this thread! :lol:

Pfff... where's the real debate if I'm not here?

:lol: Welcome Appleo!

Just a few quick remarks for you:

Good to be here :tongue:

Quite the opposite! I don't like capitalism because I love freedom.

Markets and trade have existed long before capitalism. What was new and specific for capitalism was employer - employee relationship. And this is nothing but a modified slavery.

Well you're wrong. Because people can VOLUNTARILY decide to become an employee or an employer. If I have money, and you have a job that I want you to do, and you decide to do that job for money, that is freedom.

I don't understand how that's slavery. I'd love if you could explain how it's slavery, but I don't think you will.. (probably cuz you actually can't lol)

According to latest statistics 85% of people on this planet hate their jobs. It can hardly be said that they happily and voluntarily go to work every day.

They still choose to go to work though.
Why?
Because the wage they get an hour is more valuable than being able to do whatever they want.

It's also ridiculous to expect everyone at every moment of their career they're going to enjoy it. Let's be realistic. We live on planet Earth. We have to do things that we don't want to do.

Besides, on average, the american will change their job like 5-7 times. No one stays in the same job they hate forever. You move up, you gain experience, you make more money...

Yes, the idea of moneyless economy is to abolish trade. Trade as an indicator of demand is no longer necessary, nor it is necessary to have some socialist centralized planned economy. In our modern times of internet and iphones we, as a society, can know exact demand at any given moment, with a precision down to a single potato.

There's plenty of resources, if managed intelligently, for everyone on this planet to have extremely high standard of living, much higher than average American today.

Dude, no. Do you know why we have all those resources in the first place??? The resources will run out when we all decide to stop working.

Also, who's gonna manage these resources? No one's going to manage it for free.

The reason why America has such a great access to food, as an example, is because capitalism effectively manages the resources by trading with individuals. The store owner hires farmers to get him the food, and then he hires some other guys to deliver the food, and then he hires workers to manage the store, etc...

The management is already there. The problem is that the countries who are starving don't have capitalism or free trade, OR they're still working their way up economically.

Lastly, and this is what really bothers me about commies, is their "equality" mentality. Not everyone is the same. People value different things. One person's idea of a good living is different from another. To just scrap capitalism and replace it with a system where everyone has the same everything completely rejects people's wants and desires.

Some people want to live on the beach. Some people want to live in the mountains. Some people want Mac computer, some people want no technology. You're idea of what is enough for all Americans is completely irrelevant.

Capitalism is the best at effectively managing resources already. IF someone wants more stuff for themselves, they will figure out a way to make more money. The people that want less stuff will sell their stuff to people who want more stuff. Individuals freely trading with each other until everyone is happy.

millions and millions of econonmic transacts take place. Why? because everyone has something that other people want. The store has food, I need money, so work for this company, so that I can get money (1st transaction), then I buy food (2nd transaction), and then the store uses that money to buy more food from farmers (3rd transaction)... Capitalism already works.

If we all start our own business, 99,99% of businesses will fail and there will be no one left to work. The nature of the system is such that only a tiny group of people can be successful, everyone else must fail. That's reflected in wealth disparity reports.

OMG.. you've gotta be kidding me

Why do you think businesses fail??? Because they don't deliver a service that the public wants. If you can't make something that people want, why do you deserve to have money? Rich people get rich because their business is so good at delivering the services that people want. It's so good that people will pay their own hard-earned money for it.

When a business does good, everyone wins. IT creates jobs, it produces a service or product that people want. Better products and services means a more comfortable and easier way of life. Which means people have even more opportunity to create products and services to make life even better.

I'm so tired of communists complaining about wealth disparity. If you don't want super rich people, then stop buying from them. If people are going to freely buy from a rich person and then complain about how rich they are, I don't know what to tell you.

In a capitalist system, there is no such thing as the haves and the have nots. There are just people who have. Some have way more than others, but everyone has something.

Do you want everyone to be equally poor?? (everyone has 10 dollars)
OR
Do you want everyone to be unequally rich?? (The poorest has 100 dollars and the rich have 10,000 dollars)

Like seriously, who cares about wealth inequality if everyone is better off in the end.

If we all, as a society, own automated production then we are all slave owners and machines are our slaves. All people win.

We're nowhere close to that, so keep dreaming.
Robots can't even open doors.

Just wait until 2040 when there will be no fish left in the oceans...

K first of all, you don't know that.

Second of all, companies that make money from selling fish will find a way to replace the fish because that's where their profits come from.

Thirdly, so what if fish actually do go extinct? How is that destructive?

That's why only just alternative society would be automated society.

Can you explain the details of this? I'm having a hard time seeing how this would actually work in the REAL world.

That's why it is imperative for all people to sit down and discuss the best course of action. I'm sure humanity will find excellent solutions if they really put an effort to it.

Businessmen have been providing solutions already with their businesses.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
How did you get the idea that I am for "big government"?

I am pushing for Resource Based Economy. But I am not emotionally attached to that idea. If there is something even better, then I'll support it. What I am 100% sure is that I am against capitalism.

Here is what I am pushing for:

- no money
- no nation states
- no government
- no work, no obligations, no strings attached

- absolute personal freedom

* if you want to contribute something to the society - that's fine
* if you don't want to contribute anything in your entire life - fine
* if you want full set of technology - fine
* if you don't want technology (if you are Amish or for whatever reason) - fine
* you get to live in the place of your choice
* if you want to be isolated and live away from people - fine, you still get everything you need delivered by flying automated drones
* highest possible individual expression and preference - you get to customize every single item in your life if you wish

You could argue that one is not completely free because you don't get your own spaceship, still close enough to freedom for me.

Is it utopia? No, there will be problems.
Is it possible? YES

You are so delusional. What you are saying is FANTASY! This doesn't happen in the real world.

People who believe in that stuff are easily manipulated.

---

Now, lets examine what you are pushing for (unregulated capitalism).

Are you aware that all "luxuries" you are enjoying in your workplace today were hardly fought and won battles against unregulated capitalism by the left (people you despise)? People paid with their lives so that we can have today:

- no child labor
- safe(r) workplace
- 8 hours work day
- free weekends and holidays
- minimum wage
etc.

Now, you want to throw all this away and push us back to horrors of Laissez-Faire capitalism. Do you have a heart?

Yes, get rid of it all.

I think those things came about as a mutual agreement in the end. Like you can have laissez-faire capitalism and still have those things. The government doesn't need to be involved to have those things. Like, if people refuse to work more than 8 hours a day, then they don't have to. And if the business owner agrees then that's great.

But if someone else wants to work 9 or more hours a day to take your job, then I don't see a problem with that.

Or if a kid wants to work for lower than minimum wage. I don't see that as a problem. It's your choice.

pennsylvania-coal-miners.jpg


Oh, wait, you don't have to push us back because the horrors never left.

Dorsen_8_child_worker_in_Congo_s_mi.jpg


Meet Dorsen, 8, who mines cobalt to make your smartphone work

https://news.sky.com/story/meet-dorsen-8-who-mines-cobalt-to-make-your-smartphone-work-10784120

Pulling out the sappy pictures won't change my mind.
Besides, those people (kids) wanted to work those jobs so that they could have money to things that they need.

What you don't understand is that capitalism cannot exist without government because there will be no one to enforce the contracts.

Actually, that's half true.

The government is needed for many contracts no doubt. But if you look in places like the black market, capitalism is rampant and the government isn't needed. People make trades constantly. If you're someone who can't be trusted or steals, people will stop trading with you.

Also, if you take relationships for example, those are kind of like capitalism too. I'll be your friend if you be my friend. We're friends because we both value each other's company and support. Many friendships are broken, betrayed, or lobsided because one person isn't regulated by an external force like the government. But nonetheless, these relationships still take place, and many successful romantic relationships are able to occur despite no government intervention.

On the other hand, government mechanism is abused by capitalists so they can get the competitive edge. So called "crony" capitalism is the only possible way capitalism could ever evolve and now it's here and there is no way to "un-evolve" it. This is what you get, this is how capitalism story ends.

So shrink government power. Stop trying to take wealth from the rich. Take away power from the government. That will fix the problem.

Even if you could magically somehow go back and implement "pure free market" it couldn't work because market cannot address externalities nor any problems for which there are no profitable solutions.

What are you talking about...?

If you can't make a profit with your solution, it's a solution that no one wants :lol:

People only pay money for services or products that solve their problems. If the market doesn't create a solution to your problem, then your problem doesn't exist or matter.
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Here is what I am pushing for:

- no work, no obligations, no strings attached
- absolute personal freedom

* if you want to contribute something to the society - that's fine
* if you don't want to contribute anything in your entire life - fine
* if you want full set of technology - fine
* you get to live in the place of your choice
* if you want to be isolated and live away from people - fine, you still get everything you need delivered by flying automated drones
* highest possible individual expression and preference - you get to customize every single item in your life if you wish

You could argue that one is not completely free because you don't get your own spaceship, still close enough to freedom for me.

Is it utopia? No, there will be problems.
Is it possible? YES

Ok so... this is pure nonsense. The only thing missing from this statement is that every person would also get a flying unicorn as their personal means of transportation. If people can choose not to work. Then who would do all those magnificent things you propose happen? Let me guess, magical robots?


You know, the zeitgeist videos are cool and fun and all, but they are just naive. The first problem with your info, and that way of thinking is this: who is going to create all this technology for you to use Cap? some nice guys while you sit and do nothing? the goverment (specifacally, people working for goverment) ?

Where does this beautiful stuff come from Cap?


Now, lets examine what you are pushing for (unregulated capitalism).

Are you aware that all "luxuries" you are enjoying in your workplace today were hardly fought and won battles against unregulated capitalism by the left (people you despise)? People paid with their lives so that we can have today:

- no child labor
- safe(r) workplace
- 8 hours work day
- free weekends and holidays
- minimum wage
etc.

So before capitalism children did not work right? And farmers did not work from dawn to dusk? I presume that the thousands of years of human history before capitalism those did not exist right?

So your logic is this:

- People worked to death thousands of years before capitalism, children included
- People worked to death once capitalism was "created", children included
- Capitalists are bad and mean and they are responsible for people working to death.

That doesn't even make sense Cap. People worked from dawn to dusk, because it was the costume of ancient societies of working a lot of hours. You are blaming free market society for up until that moment in life, was how human life operated for thousands of years.

So did the children of native americans, before the europeans arrived, did not grow crops? did not hunt? did not fight in tribal wars? These are societies that used no money, have no laws, no jobs, no goverments, and you telling me that the life of these children was awsome before the development of capitalism right? I mean sure, only the europeans are cruel enough that they made children work, after all, its not that for the most of human history children had a horrible life, if you know, they even managed to live past the age of 1 month.
 
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wan

Well-known member
I believe each individual has a right to do whatever they want with their property. The goverment has no actual right to take more from you than from others.

But we can re-organize our society in such a way so as to stop the rich from getting even richer.

Question for you: the super-rich can use their money to buy up TV networks, newspapers, media outlets, and then hire writers and producers to produce whatever content they want and in doing so, control what the populace think. They can also influence the outcome of elections by donating to candidates that support policies that benefit them (the very rich). Does this seem right to you? I agree that when people say, "nobody needs hundreds of billions", it seems unreasonable at first, but after you see the way the wealthy have so much control and influence over the rest of us, then maybe we need to re-think the current way we do things.

Lets say I write a book. Lets say that you guys (cap, david, odd) each buy a copy from me for $100 each. Now I'm $300 wealthier, while each of you is $100 poorer. But now because I have more money, cap and david want me to pay more taxes than them.

- Why should I pay more taxes? you exchanged your money to me freely.
- Did I force you to buy the book from me, as if I was an overlord with power over you? no
- Should I give you the book for free because you think you are entitled to read my book? no

But things are not simple as that. Have you heard of the term "wage slavery"? Basically, in our current society, there is no slavery ostensibly. However, people need money to survive, so they take any jobs they can. Even though technically businesses don't force people to work for them, and that on the surface people apply for these jobs voluntarily, there is still an element of slavery (for a lack of better term) in all this. Maybe not in a legal sense, but definitely in a moral sense.
 
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AppLeo

Well-known member
But we can re-organize our society in such a way so as to stop the rich from getting even richer.

What's wrong with the rich getting richer???

WHY IS THAT A PROBLEM???

Should we stop the super intelligent from getting more intelligent?

"omg dude, einstien is too intelligent with his E=Mc^2 formula, we better give him brain damage because his intelligence makes stupid pepole feel bad."

"it's not fair that he's able to be the best mathematician, everyone should be an average mathematician"

Or the super attractive from getting more attractive?

"im a beautiful woman, but Marilyn Monroe is so beautiful and attractive compared to me, so I should kill her because it's unfair."

Why are we trying to put an end to people's successes? Like I don't understand. The envy is real.

But things are not simple as that. Have you heard of the term "wage slavery"? Basically, in our current society, there is no slavery ostensibly. However, people need money to survive, so they take any jobs they can. Even though technically businesses don't force people to work for them, and that on the surface people apply for these jobs voluntarily, there is still an element of slavery (for a lack of better term) in all this. Maybe not in a legal sense, but definitely in a moral sense.

There is no such thing as slavery in capitalism. Wage slavery is a term created by the left to justify government intervention.

If you look at the perspective of the business owner, he created the business from his own free will. It's his business and he can run it however he wants to. He didn't create the business to give people a living wage. He didn't create the business from a moral perspective.

He created the business to make money.

Honestly, if you feel bad for these people, why don't you start a business of your own and pay them 50$ an hour to do a job that anyone can do, and see how stupid it feels.

Why would I pay someone 50$ an hour to run the cash register???

Why would I even start a business and hire people if I have to pay so much money to have workers?

Business owners would just hire themselves and pay themselves from the money they make from the business. But what happens when the business fails and the fail to pay themselves minimum wage??? Do they go to prison because their employer didn't pay them money?

But going back, if a business owner just refuses to hire people because he could make more money working by himself then he will. But ultimately that's worse for the economy because that means less jobs for people. And that means the people who are "slaves" don't even have the opportunity to work a minimum wage job. And if a business is smaller and only run by one person, that means less products are manufactured, and the less products that are created means that the products are more expensive, which means less products for the public to buy. Which means less comfort and opportunity for the public, which means less businesses for the public to create, which means less jobs, which... you get the point.

No one owes you a job. No one owes you a salary.

Also, as I've said before, no one works a minimum wage job forever. People change jobs, gain experience, etc...
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
I answered some of this stuff in some later post after the one you quoted, by I'll sum it up.

But we can re-organize our society in such a way so as to stop the rich from getting even richer.

Question for you: the super-rich can use their money to buy up TV networks, newspapers, media outlets, and then hire writers and producers to produce whatever content they want and in doing so, control what the populace think. They can also influence the outcome of elections by donating to candidates that support policies that benefit them (the very rich). Does this seem right to you?

You are choosing where to get your news from. You don't have to watch those shows if you don't want to. And in any case what you should actually do is watch all of them. Watch msnbc, watch fox news, read the leftist blog, read the right wing blog, then weight out the diference and balance the evidence presented (if any) and you will get the answers.

And why does lobbying happen? because of big goverment! Because you allow the goverment to have too much control over the economy.

A company lobbys a politician, who in turn votes to bailout that company. How does the goverment get the money to bailout said company? from taxes they take from the people!

Lower taxes = less things goverment can spend on = no goverment bailing out a failed company.
But things are not simple as that. Have you heard of the term "wage slavery"? Basically, in our current society, there is no slavery ostensibly. However, people need money to survive, so they take any jobs they can. Even though technically businesses don't force people to work for them, and that on the surface people apply for these jobs voluntarily, there is still an element of slavery (for a lack of better term) in all this. Maybe not in a legal sense, but definitely in a moral sense.

As I said before, almost half of the money you make, even if you earn a rather low wage, goes to the goverment, on a number of different taxes. So as a start, worker's living conditions would improve if taxation wasn't so high.

Then, you need to account that the more taxes there are, the less money people can save, and becuase of that, there is less money people can invest, which in turn means there are less jobs being created. You get more money, you invest it, you profit, and while you profit you create a job for someone else. It is a win-win.
 
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AppLeo

Well-known member
I can't believe you actually said that. What is wrong with human race?

:surprised::sick::pinched::crying::andy::sad:

Out of all the things I said, you respond to that one thing.

You also didn’t answer my question, which means that you don’t have a good reason for why fish going extinct is bad.

Also, people can create their own aquariums and own their own fish if they actually care about fish.
 

Cap

Well-known member
They still choose to go to work though.
Why?
Because the wage they get an hour is more valuable than being able to do whatever they want.

It's also ridiculous to expect everyone at every moment of their career they're going to enjoy it. Let's be realistic. We live on planet Earth. We have to do things that we don't want to do.

Besides, on average, the american will change their job like 5-7 times. No one stays in the same job they hate forever. You move up, you gain experience, you make more money...

Have patience...

It is also possible that many of them already changed 5-7 jobs and hated all of them.

Your logic of "VOLUNTARY" trade works only if you count death by starvation as option.

Much more realistic is to conclude that people are extremely unhappy in current system.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
Have patience...

It is also possible that many of them already changed 5-7 jobs and hated all of them.

Your logic of "VOLUNTARY" trade works only if you count death by starvation as option.

Much more realistic is to conclude that people are extremely unhappy in current system.

Well businessmen could just decide not to start a business or not hire anyone for any wage.

So people should be lucky to have the option to have a job than starving to death.
 

Cap

Well-known member
Well you're wrong. Because people can VOLUNTARILY decide to become an employee or an employer. If I have money, and you have a job that I want you to do, and you decide to do that job for money, that is freedom.

I don't understand how that's slavery. I'd love if you could explain how it's slavery, but I don't think you will.. (probably cuz you actually can't lol)

- I don't accept your "voluntary" argument.

- Just like slaves, workers produce more value than they receive through wages, otherwise there would be no profit for the owner. Slaves didn't have wages but they had other stuff provided. For example, slaves in ancient Rome had housing, food, clothes, usually freedom to move around and in some cases monthly ration of beer. Of course, value of their work was greater than these expenses so they were profitable to the slave owner. Today's workers are not in much better position, in many cases they can't even afford the stuff the Roman slaves had. Freedom to move around is useless if they don't have enough money to travel and if they are obliged to report to work regularly.

So, 'voluntary' argument is purely philosophical. Reality of the situation is that nothing much changed.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
If I start a business and offer to pay 12 dollars an hour to work the cash register and someone takes the job, that is not slavery

Done. End of story.

The reason why business owners hire people is to make more money. With more people doing work for the business the more services and products that can be made.

If a business owner isn’t going to make more money from the people they hire, there would be no incentive to hire people.

Also, if you think working a minimum wage job is slavery, you need to like look around. Living life is essentially slavery. We have to do things we don’t want to do if we want to have things that we want. That’s how life works lol.

You could argue that a tiger is a slave because it has to get up everyday and hunt for food. It can make a deal with life, if it hunts it gets food. It could choose not to hunt but it starved. So it’s enslaved by hunger.

So actually, people aren’t enslaved by other humans, we’re enslaved by our own desires and needs. You are a slave to yourself because you get hungry, thirsty, and are vulnerable to the environment . It’s you’re fault that you have to take a job that you don’t like because you have a desire to eat.

Just because you’re breathing doesn’t mean you have a moral right to food, water, and shelter. The universe doesn’t give a ****, and the only way to get people to give you food water and shelter is by creating value whether by starting a business or getting money for your labor.
 
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Cap

Well-known member
Also, if you think working a minimum wage job is slavery, you need to like look around. Living life is essentially slavery. We have to do things we don’t want to do if we want to have things that we want. That’s how life works lol.

Yes, that's the usual argument of capitalist apologist to justify exploitation. Life *****, so slavery/exploitation is OK.

Btw, got something for you

Is capitalism slavery? 70% Say Yes

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-capitalism-slavery
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
Yes, that's the usual argument of capitalist apologist to justify exploitation. Life *****, so slavery/exploitation is OK.

Btw, got something for you

Is capitalism slavery? 70% Say Yes

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-capitalism-slavery

No. Life is essentially slavery. You have to do things you don’t want to do.

Business owners were in the same place. They had the choice to work for someone or start their own business. If working a minimum wage job isn’t working for you, then start a business.

The statistic doesn’t really mean anything. Majority of people are wrong and don’t understand capitalism is, so...

Also, you didn’t tell me how fish going extinct is bad
—-/

Cap you’re so frustrating... if someone is a slave for working a minimum wage job, don’t you think it’s slavery to force a business owner to pay someone more than what they want??? They started and built the foundation of the business. They’re the real slaves. Working a 9 to 5 job really isn’t that hard.
 
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