david starling
Well-known member
AppLeo, you're not allowed on this thread!
First of all... people who don't like capitalism don't like freedom.
Capitalism, is essentially, individuals freely trading with one another.
If I have something that you want, and you have something that I want, we must VOLUNTARILY agree to trade with each other.
The reason why we have private property and have ownership is so that trading can be made possible. How do you make a trade if everyone owns everything? And if everyone owns everything, how do we decide who gets to have what? Cuz material resources are finite.
When you work at a minimum wage job, you are trading your time and labor in exchange for money. If you don't like it, then quit your job. Start your own business and hire people to work for you.
Like when when you say that you think capitalism is a destructive force...
Capitalism probably ***** because there's inequality, and that people are exploited, and that we are constantly bombarded with advertisements....
ALSO, even if the alternative did work, it's still immoral. Because the people that work the hardest and smartest won't be entitled to the sweat of their brow. Everyone would be living off of them.
Like, if you somehow managed to destroy capitalism, what would you replace it with?
I'd seriously like to know.
You're not the only third world country. I was talking mostly about European 19th century imperialism and USA's 20th century imperialism.
Super fast crash course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alJaltUmrGo
I was just exposing your double standard when it comes to use of physical force. Exploitation is form of violence, too.
Don't worry, I don't think that mobs you are going to experience in coming years will be politically motivated. Most likely they will just be hungry. Since governments will be poor (especially when billionaires decide they don't want to pay taxes any more), there will be no law enforcement. But this probably won't be a problem for you since you are successful in this system and you will easily pay your private army to protect you and your loved ones from mobs, gangs and your fellow rich man's armies. Everything will be private, truly a libertarian heaven, I think you'll enjoy it.
Here's something to consider: Nuclear Fusion plants, coming on line by about 2040. That will mark the end of the Fossil-fuel dominance that's the current cause of global conflict. The economic impact will be enormous, and how well it's handled will determine whether Capitalism is fit to survive.
Colonialism failed as an economic system, because the "mother nation" would impose restrictions to the colonies for trading with other countries, and they would impose a heavy taxation to colonialist merchants which would stump their capacity for growth. This does not constitute a free market economy, and thus it is not capitalism. The actual name for this system is mercantilism.
The U.S. was one of these many colonies. And the american revolution happened because of these reasons: heavy taxation on goods, restrictions for trade (closing of ports) and a general intervention of the royal goverment into local colonian administrations. The american's suffered exactly the same restrictions Africa, South America and Asia did. However they managed to get their independance, and South America soon followed them. If you check the economic statiscs of Both northern and southern american countries during the 19th century and early 20th century, both continents had a rapid economic expansions and good standards of living.
What we have today in the west is, in reality, closer to mercantilism, because national goverment's have a rather heavy intervention in the economy, and a strong say in its direction; with the biggest diference being that they prefer a balance between enterprise and worker. This is not what classical liberals (today called libertarians) want. This is not capitalism.
We are not in favour of goverment bailouts.
We are not in favour of protectionist policies.
We are not in favour of lobbying politicians.
We support the creation of worker's unions (if workers join it freely and are granted no priviliges by goverment)
We support suing your employer for wrongful termination.
We support consumers taking companies to court for damages.
Low taxation for everyone means more money for workers, to save or invest in themselves. It means more money for entrepeneurs to invest in business which will produce more jobs.
You call this "explotation", of what? I want you to earn more. If you have a job you pay as a minimum 10% of your salary as income tax, 15% on everything you buy on a sales tax, and a different amount of taxes that range from 2%-10% or much more, so on the very least around 40% of the total money you make as a worker is taken away from you by the goverment. And, because businesses are also being taxed, they sell at higher prices, so you are paying at least 20% more in prices on everything you buy.
So in reality the amount of money the goverment takes from you is at least 50% of your income!
Who is exploiting you in reality Cap? the rich guy or the politician in washington?
What we have today is a big goverment that benefits the rich. What you want is a big goverment that benefits the poor. What I want is goverment that doesn't get in the way of anyone, neither rich nor poor. We are the children of Adam Smith. We are on the side of freedom.
On the other hand, what you are pushing is for more goverment. More control, more intervenion. You know why communism failed? because the only ones who got rich were the goverment officials, because goverment is the only entity that gets money under that system. Not to mention the amount of blood they spilled through decades of cruelty over their own population. This is what you are supporting Cap.
AppLeo, you're not allowed on this thread!
Welcome Appleo!
Just a few quick remarks for you:
Quite the opposite! I don't like capitalism because I love freedom.
Markets and trade have existed long before capitalism. What was new and specific for capitalism was employer - employee relationship. And this is nothing but a modified slavery.
According to latest statistics 85% of people on this planet hate their jobs. It can hardly be said that they happily and voluntarily go to work every day.
Yes, the idea of moneyless economy is to abolish trade. Trade as an indicator of demand is no longer necessary, nor it is necessary to have some socialist centralized planned economy. In our modern times of internet and iphones we, as a society, can know exact demand at any given moment, with a precision down to a single potato.
There's plenty of resources, if managed intelligently, for everyone on this planet to have extremely high standard of living, much higher than average American today.
If we all start our own business, 99,99% of businesses will fail and there will be no one left to work. The nature of the system is such that only a tiny group of people can be successful, everyone else must fail. That's reflected in wealth disparity reports.
If we all, as a society, own automated production then we are all slave owners and machines are our slaves. All people win.
Just wait until 2040 when there will be no fish left in the oceans...
That's why only just alternative society would be automated society.
That's why it is imperative for all people to sit down and discuss the best course of action. I'm sure humanity will find excellent solutions if they really put an effort to it.
How did you get the idea that I am for "big government"?
I am pushing for Resource Based Economy. But I am not emotionally attached to that idea. If there is something even better, then I'll support it. What I am 100% sure is that I am against capitalism.
Here is what I am pushing for:
- no money
- no nation states
- no government
- no work, no obligations, no strings attached
- absolute personal freedom
* if you want to contribute something to the society - that's fine
* if you don't want to contribute anything in your entire life - fine
* if you want full set of technology - fine
* if you don't want technology (if you are Amish or for whatever reason) - fine
* you get to live in the place of your choice
* if you want to be isolated and live away from people - fine, you still get everything you need delivered by flying automated drones
* highest possible individual expression and preference - you get to customize every single item in your life if you wish
You could argue that one is not completely free because you don't get your own spaceship, still close enough to freedom for me.
Is it utopia? No, there will be problems.
Is it possible? YES
Now, lets examine what you are pushing for (unregulated capitalism).
Are you aware that all "luxuries" you are enjoying in your workplace today were hardly fought and won battles against unregulated capitalism by the left (people you despise)? People paid with their lives so that we can have today:
- no child labor
- safe(r) workplace
- 8 hours work day
- free weekends and holidays
- minimum wage
etc.
Now, you want to throw all this away and push us back to horrors of Laissez-Faire capitalism. Do you have a heart?
Oh, wait, you don't have to push us back because the horrors never left.
Meet Dorsen, 8, who mines cobalt to make your smartphone work
https://news.sky.com/story/meet-dorsen-8-who-mines-cobalt-to-make-your-smartphone-work-10784120
What you don't understand is that capitalism cannot exist without government because there will be no one to enforce the contracts.
On the other hand, government mechanism is abused by capitalists so they can get the competitive edge. So called "crony" capitalism is the only possible way capitalism could ever evolve and now it's here and there is no way to "un-evolve" it. This is what you get, this is how capitalism story ends.
Even if you could magically somehow go back and implement "pure free market" it couldn't work because market cannot address externalities nor any problems for which there are no profitable solutions.
Here is what I am pushing for:
- no work, no obligations, no strings attached
- absolute personal freedom
* if you want to contribute something to the society - that's fine
* if you don't want to contribute anything in your entire life - fine
* if you want full set of technology - fine
* you get to live in the place of your choice
* if you want to be isolated and live away from people - fine, you still get everything you need delivered by flying automated drones
* highest possible individual expression and preference - you get to customize every single item in your life if you wish
You could argue that one is not completely free because you don't get your own spaceship, still close enough to freedom for me.
Is it utopia? No, there will be problems.
Is it possible? YES
Now, lets examine what you are pushing for (unregulated capitalism).
Are you aware that all "luxuries" you are enjoying in your workplace today were hardly fought and won battles against unregulated capitalism by the left (people you despise)? People paid with their lives so that we can have today:
- no child labor
- safe(r) workplace
- 8 hours work day
- free weekends and holidays
- minimum wage
etc.
I believe each individual has a right to do whatever they want with their property. The goverment has no actual right to take more from you than from others.
Lets say I write a book. Lets say that you guys (cap, david, odd) each buy a copy from me for $100 each. Now I'm $300 wealthier, while each of you is $100 poorer. But now because I have more money, cap and david want me to pay more taxes than them.
- Why should I pay more taxes? you exchanged your money to me freely.
- Did I force you to buy the book from me, as if I was an overlord with power over you? no
- Should I give you the book for free because you think you are entitled to read my book? no
But we can re-organize our society in such a way so as to stop the rich from getting even richer.
But things are not simple as that. Have you heard of the term "wage slavery"? Basically, in our current society, there is no slavery ostensibly. However, people need money to survive, so they take any jobs they can. Even though technically businesses don't force people to work for them, and that on the surface people apply for these jobs voluntarily, there is still an element of slavery (for a lack of better term) in all this. Maybe not in a legal sense, but definitely in a moral sense.
But we can re-organize our society in such a way so as to stop the rich from getting even richer.
Question for you: the super-rich can use their money to buy up TV networks, newspapers, media outlets, and then hire writers and producers to produce whatever content they want and in doing so, control what the populace think. They can also influence the outcome of elections by donating to candidates that support policies that benefit them (the very rich). Does this seem right to you?
But things are not simple as that. Have you heard of the term "wage slavery"? Basically, in our current society, there is no slavery ostensibly. However, people need money to survive, so they take any jobs they can. Even though technically businesses don't force people to work for them, and that on the surface people apply for these jobs voluntarily, there is still an element of slavery (for a lack of better term) in all this. Maybe not in a legal sense, but definitely in a moral sense.
Thirdly, so what if fish actually do go extinct? How is that destructive?
I can't believe you actually said that. What is wrong with human race?
They still choose to go to work though.
Why?
Because the wage they get an hour is more valuable than being able to do whatever they want.
It's also ridiculous to expect everyone at every moment of their career they're going to enjoy it. Let's be realistic. We live on planet Earth. We have to do things that we don't want to do.
Besides, on average, the american will change their job like 5-7 times. No one stays in the same job they hate forever. You move up, you gain experience, you make more money...
Have patience...
It is also possible that many of them already changed 5-7 jobs and hated all of them.
Your logic of "VOLUNTARY" trade works only if you count death by starvation as option.
Much more realistic is to conclude that people are extremely unhappy in current system.
Well you're wrong. Because people can VOLUNTARILY decide to become an employee or an employer. If I have money, and you have a job that I want you to do, and you decide to do that job for money, that is freedom.
I don't understand how that's slavery. I'd love if you could explain how it's slavery, but I don't think you will.. (probably cuz you actually can't lol)
Also, if you think working a minimum wage job is slavery, you need to like look around. Living life is essentially slavery. We have to do things we don’t want to do if we want to have things that we want. That’s how life works lol.
Just because you’re breathing doesn’t mean you have a moral right to food, water, and shelter.
Yes, that's the usual argument of capitalist apologist to justify exploitation. Life *****, so slavery/exploitation is OK.
Btw, got something for you
Is capitalism slavery? 70% Say Yes
http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-capitalism-slavery